PPL Training

[radubc]

I plan to start training for a PPL soon at Springbank in Calgary. I have a general idea about the cost. It would take me about 80 hours, about $200/hr instruction included, more or less. Are there any initial costs, hidden or not, for PPL training?

I'm split between SATC and CFC. Can somebody recommend one or the other? My idea is that they are about the same, I just have to get the right instructor, but i'm not sure, and the topics on this are pretty old.

Thank you.

[shamrock104]

Go take a flight or two at each school and choose from there. With the CFC you can purchase a temporary membership.

[North Shore]

Go to both places, and 'interview' them - get a feel for the two businesses, etc.. maybe meet a few current students, and see what they think of their flight schools. Meet a few instructors (buy 'em coffee or lunch - they won't complain, and it's cheaper than a flight for you) You are going to be spending a fair amount of time shoulder-to-shoulder with them, so if you're not comfortable, then your learning progress will suffer.

If you've got the money up-front, are reasonably coordinated and intelligent, and are prepared to commit to 2-3 flights a week, then there is NO WAY that it should take you 80 hours to get a PPL! The Transport Canada minimum is 45 hours - I've seen a few air cadets with gliding experience do it in that time, but I'd think that with competent instruction and diligent review and application on your behalf, 50-60 hours should be more in the ballpark..

[radubc]

Thank you for your answers.

Some time ago I took an intro lesson at CFC, which didn't work really well for me. I was for the first time in a small airplane and got airsick, so we had to return. I took my next intro lesson with SATC, which went well and I liked the instructor. A few days ago I visited CFC to ask for details about costs, training etc. I found two people at the reception desk, and they started to argue about which one to talk to me: "You talk to him". "No, you talk to him, I'm busy". I managed to get some basic information, but no details. Then, I crossed the street to SATC. Same kind of attitude. I forked out some basic information, cost estimate, but nothing more. Somebody told me about a starter kit for arround $850. I asked what it is but i received an evasive answer. This is why I asked about eventual initial costs, more or less hidden. What is a starter kit? Does it include ground school?

I'm thinking to go with CFC because I think that renting from them after I get the PPL would be easier. I plan to make an appointment and talk to the CFI and see what happens. I don't know any student pilot, so I can't talk to anybody. This is where a discussion board could help.

I do mostly contract work outside Calgary, so time+money=constant. I don't have the money upfront, so I could take a lesson or two per month. This way I would have to review a lot, and this is where the 80 hours are coming from. I may finish earlier, but I can't bet on it.

[Beefitarian]

At this rate I'm going to have to go to Saskatchewan or Ontario to rent 172s when we run out of FTUs here.
When I started flying there was a bunch in a book called, "The Yellow Pages." I phoned all of them and visited several.

Where outside of Calgary are you usually? You should talk to all four of the ones left. There's these guys http://www.calgaryflight.com/ in Olds/Didbury, north. And http://www.skywings.com/ in Red deer and Okatoks. I'm pretty sure there's someone in Lethbridge and Medicine Hat too.

I did my PPL with the Calgary flying club in the first half of the 90s. I don't seem to fit in there now but I have nothing particularly bad to say about them. I think they are definitely on par with any of the other good schools, and better than many in the area that have come and gone since 1928.

I have had difficulty getting ahold of anyone at Calgary flight center in the past, but maybe you will like them the most. Someone here was saying his son inlaw did his PPL with them a little over a year ago and seemed pretty happy.

The club has a $125 yearly membership fee but you get one hour of instructor time with it.

I think their starter kit is books, chart, slide rule, trinkets in a flight bag. It's most of the student supplies for ground school. It's usually slightly less than if you bought it all separate. I hope the one you're talking about includes the ground school fee or even an hour of dual.

[CpnCrunch]

Other things you might pay for are:

- ground briefings
- exams and flight tests
- equipment (books, headset, kneeboard, etc)
- fuel surcharge, insurance and other fees (most flight schools include these in the rental rate, but just check)

The flight school definitely should be able to tell you about all the fees. It sounds like either they were very busy or just had particularly unhelpful people at the front-desk. Both CFC and SATC are good (and I've found them both very friendly and helpful), although you'll have more taxiing at SATC. Interestingly I see that Duane Hicks (from Ice Pilots) is now the general manager of CFC.

You might also want to try Skywings at Okotoks. The airport is less busy than YBW and you'll get a more personal and helpful service there. Not sure I'd use Skywings at Red Deer, as I think they might be very busy training Chinese students.

[teh1pilot]

Other things you might pay for are:

- ground briefings
- exams and flight tests
- equipment (books, headset, kneeboard, etc)
- fuel surcharge, insurance and other fees (most flight schools include these in the rental rate, but just check)

The flight school definitely should be able to tell you about all the fees. It sounds like either they were very busy or just had particularly unhelpful people at the front-desk. Both CFC and SATC are good (and I've found them both very friendly and helpful), although you'll have more taxiing at SATC. Interestingly I see that Duane Hicks (from Ice Pilots) is now the general manager of CFC.

You might also want to try Skywings at Okotoks. The airport is less busy than YBW and you'll get a more personal and helpful service there. Not sure I'd use Skywings at Red Deer, as I think they might be very busy training Chinese students.

+1

The general consensus on what is included in the "starter pack"(based purely off of packages i've seen at a few clubs in and around the Edmonton area) are:

3 books: From The Ground Up/Flight Training Manual/ASA Approved Pilot Logbook
1 slide rule/calculator(you will learn how to use it in ground school)
1 Ruler(for use on maps and stuff in the Navigation chapter of ground school)
And finally, maybe a company labelled pen or some other small trinkets all thrown either in a shrink wrap package, or even a little duffel bag. That price, though, its very expensive for a starter kit. I would damn well hope that would include the cost for the ground school course, and maybe even an hour of instruction. That would have to be clarified with the place you decide to go to.

While it may or may not be included in the package, I would highly suggest also purchasing a Pilots Operating Handbook for the particular type of plane you will be training on. It has all sorts of information in there that will be of particular value to you throughout your training including things like aircraft systems, performance numbers(airspeeds, takeoff/landing distances) weight and balance calculations etc etc. Only do so, however, once you know you will be continuing on after groundschool and actually do some flying. This will essentially be your bible, next to the Flight Training Manual.

In regards to other "hidden costs", there's really nothing more, short of the hourly rate for the instructor, on top of the solo rate of the plane rental. They may throw a fuel surcharge at you, and then of course your examination fee's for things like your written exam and in-flight exam.

Finally, I would suggest that if you have a few hundred bucks to burn, ask about doing a "Discovery Flight" at both places with an instructor you feel would suit you best. It's a good way of going flying, making sure you are interested for the long haul ahead, meeting an instructor/planes the club flies, as well as get hands on experience on actually flying a plane.....all at a (slightly?) reduced rate.

Financially, it all depends on the student and the commitment you are willing to put forth. I've heard stories of students walking out with a license at TC minimums, I've also heard them walking out with license after 20-25k. Typically, I wouldn't even quote typical amounts of hours for students since the numbers vary so widely, plus it can sometimes set unrealistic expectations in a students head that they should be done by X hours. In regards to the financial side, I would expect anywhere between 8-14k. It seems to be a number that fits well with a majority of flying clubs. Anyways, feel free to PM me if I hadn't answered any other questions you might have

[CpnCrunch]

While it may or may not be included in the package, I would highly suggest also purchasing a Pilots Operating Handbook for the particular type of plane you will be training on.

Yes, definitely get the POH. Although your flying school really should be able to provide you with it. When I learned to fly I never even knew such a thing as a POH even existed. Calgary Flying Club are pretty good about this - whenever they check you out on a new plane they give you the POH and make you do an open-book exam on it (as far as I remember), and I think they have all the POHs for each plane that you can borrow at any time. You really should know the POH inside out for your plane. There are lots of free POHs on the internet that you can download for free for the typical training planes.

[High Flyin]

I do mostly contract work outside Calgary, so time+money=constant. I don't have the money upfront, so I could take a lesson or two per month. This way I would have to review a lot, and this is where the 80 hours are coming from. I may finish earlier, but I can't bet on it.

Most FTU's have a 30 day currency policy. Which means even when you become licensed, you won't be able to rent an aircraft until you complete a checkout with an instructor if you haven't flown in the past 30 days. Coupled to that your lack of time and I'd recommend waiting a little until your schedule opens up, you'll get more out of it, and it will cost less.

Also, flight training can get very tedious and frustrating at times with little to no light at the end of the tunnel (depends how far you want to get into flying). I've seen students in your shows start the same way and just never finish. The drift further and further away from flying.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

I would say your 80 hour estimate is pretty good. Sounds like you are no spring chicken and have other stuff going on that will compete for your attention. The cadets do it in 45 hours because they go hardcore for 4 weeks. Dunno if that makes them competent pilots or not, but that's another issue.

Based on my experience in Ontario, I would say that 80 hours would cost you $20K, which is basically $250/hr. The plane was an average of $200/hr just by itself ( and that's before taxes ). Factor in the stuff already mentioned such as test fees, licence fees, books, headset, etc and I would say that accounts for the other $50 per hour.

[Beefitarian]

I thought the $149 + tax per Cessna 172 hour was bad here. Head set included for students if you don't want buy them.


http://www.cyberpilotshop.com/cat17_1.htm

I bought a pair of these 20 years ago or so. http://www.cyberpilotshop.com/item104.htm Just over a buck an hour so far.

[radubc]

Thank you again for your advice. I now have another list of questions to ask the FTUs.

I'll try to visit the other two locations in the north, since Okotoks is a little bit too far from Sage Hill.

Indeed, I'm no spring chicken and I don't intend to fly as a career. It's just for fun. My plan is to have night flying endorsement, IFR, and mountain endorsement, although my guts tell me that mountain flying may be more dangerous than I might think now.

The rates I received are around $143-145 per hr wet, and about 60 per hour for the instructor. I don't know if they include insurance, fuel surcharges or headset rental. This would be another thing for me to ask.

[CpnCrunch]

although my guts tell me that mountain flying may be more dangerous than I might think now.

Not necessarily. If you start off by flying in the wide valleys on nice days (winds at 10,000 feet 10 knots or less, no clouds) and always make sure you have your altitude before entering a valley, it's not really any more dangerous than any other type of flying. You can then gradually work up from there, but just don't get too cocky. Flying in the mountains in nice weather is the most fun flying you can have (in my opinion). The accidents tend to fall into two categories: weather (excessively strong winds or low cloud/fog), and hitting rising terrain. Both of these are pretty easy to avoid, and yet highly experienced pilots continue to make big smoking holes in the sides of mountains simply because they get too cocky.