Union at West Jet

[Squid]

gnite!

[Arctic84]

gnite!

Com'n back when you know what you're talking about.

[WJ200]

Arctic 84, no offence but you need a reality check because the 1150 other pilots aren't on here complaining. Paranoia is very easy....trust.....that takes some work. If you don't like things, there are elections coming in January. PACT constitution.....really? If you compare it to a Union it is worded that way to indemnify the representatives as a precaution. Look at other non-union constitutions before making up problems that aren't based on fact......

[Lateralus]

Well, I'm glad you are happy.

You walked into instant seniority; I have been here a long time, and i can't seem to get the great sched that you get. Every month is a crap shoot.

In the last year, we have gone to 2 757 flying for 5 months from 1 757 flying for 9 weeks (can I have a show of hands). Next season, look for 3 757. We have B scaled pilots (Encore), F/As, CSAs, and handed over an open-ended, no scope, operation that may decide to fly jets at any time. When asked what would prevent us from being out maneuvered on jet flying, we got "trust us". Okay, why not sign something that says all jet flying at mainline? Sorry, can't be "restricted" . Don't matter to me, I'm so far up the not-a-seniority list that it won't affect me.

It's all very important, because our CASM is becoming too high. Big problem with tenured employees. OTOH, the CEO got a 25% raise in total comp in 2012, and EVPs got a 50% raise. 6 weeks of vacation too. You and me, we get to pick snot rags out of seat backs for the same money as last year.

Yup, harsh analysis I know. I sincerely hope you get to enjoy the kind of career you deserve. Keep your eyes open, and question (carefully, you want to be a Captain some day) the things that are happening today. They will truly shape the rest of your career.

Thanks for the timely reply.

[Arctic84]

Arctic 84, no offence but you need a reality check because the 1150 other pilots aren't on here complaining. Paranoia is very easy....trust.....that takes some work. If you don't like things, there are elections coming in January. PACT constitution.....really? If you compare it to a Union it is worded that way to indemnify the representatives as a precaution. Look at other non-union constitutions before making up problems that aren't based on fact......

Just because 1150 pilots aren't on here complaining doesn't mean they are happy. Half of them are F/Os and if they ever want to be Captains, they are going to be silent. Or do you have a different understanding of what" in good standing means"?

I have had a lot of years of reality check. i worked here when PACT was formed, and I know why it was started in the first place. You can trust all you want, but I have watched quietly over the years, and I know the deal works. The PACT constitution should be read by all employees. Take the time, you'll be glad you did.

just for laughs, ask a hard question on the pilot forum. See how long it takes to get an answer.

[WJ700]

"Minority"

Understatement of the year.

[Bede]

Just because 1150 pilots aren't on here complaining doesn't mean they are happy. Half of them are F/Os and if they ever want to be Captains, they are going to be silent. Or do you have a different understanding of what" in good standing means"?

I don't buy that. This is People Skills 101. If you walk into the CP's office and tell him he's a retard and you're close to an upgrade, there's a good chance you'll get bypassed. Walk in and tell him you don't like something and there's a better way to do it, he might ignore you, but you won't get bypassed. I have yet to see evidence of anything else. I always here these kinds of accusations on the WJPA board (same person), but can someone give me a name and situation where a pilot with decent rides and good captain recommends got by-passed because he voiced his concerns?

The PACT constitution should be read by all employees. Take the time, you'll be glad you did.

Agreed.

[True North]

When asked what would prevent us from being out maneuvered on jet flying, we got "trust us". Okay, why not sign something that says all jet flying at mainline? Sorry, can't be "restricted" . Don't matter to me, I'm so far up the not-a-seniority list that it won't affect me.

I thought you had language in your LOU regarding that. I'm sure I read that in another thread.

[nogood4u]

Arctic84 you are not alone. It is time to get away from this paradigm.

It does not work. It is not real, or legally binding. It is pretend.

It is poison for this pilot group, and this company.

We are professionals wanting professional LEGAL representation, and we will have it.

It will be for our pilots to decide. No one else, and the sky will not fall.

[True North]

Arctic84 you are not alone. It is time to get away from this paradigm.

It does not work. It is not real, or legally binding. It is pretend.

It is poison for this pilot group, and this company.

We are professionals wanting professional LEGAL representation, and we will have it.

It will be for our pilots to decide. No one else, and the sky will not fall.

Help me here.

You make good money working - at most - 16 days a month. Your company shares the profits with you. You fly a very nice, well maintained airplane to a lot of very cool places. What exactly is not working? From an outsiders perspective you sound like a bunch of whiney spoiled brats.

[ALPAwannabe]

"Minority"

Understatement of the year.

I think the CP should get a Box of 1200 ALPA cards from Dan and leave them at the entrance of the head office and tell all the pilots to come get one and sign it. This way the CP can show how little the vocal minority really are. right?………. or not?

[CAL]

True North

really?

you are totally missing the point to what these guys are talking about.

They do it here because if they do it closer to home they will likely get in trouble.

At some point you have to demand the best for you and your family for at least the last 10-15 years of your trade.....you should be f---king glad that someone is trying to make it better for you in the future....because if it continues on this path it will continue to decline in relative terms for sure.

Re word you comment....I recognize your name so I know you have been around on here....think about it from a different perspective and a larger point of view.

[True North]

CAL,

I stand by my comment and I'm still waiting for an answer. What is it that needs to get better? And are you suggesting that WJ pilots can't speak their mind or there will be retribution of some kind?

You state; "because if it continues on this path it will continue to decline in relative terms for sure." What path is that? Have you been asked to take a pay cut? Work more hours?

Earlier in the thread Arctic84 stated there is no written guarantee against Encore getting jets. I challenged that statement based on what I have previously heard and read on this forum. Is that true or not?

Thanks for your altruistic endevours but I have no future, I'm happily retired.

[WJ200]

This thread is so full of spin to promote a union agenda...I'm out......

[True North]

I think you're bang on WJ200. A whole bunch of BS rhetoric about how bad things are and scare mongering about speaking your mind, but not one fact. Maybe even some outright lies.

That's the poster for union recruiting.

[CAL]

CAL,

I stand by my comment and I'm still waiting for an answer. What is it that needs to get better? And are you suggesting that WJ pilots can't speak their mind or there will be retribution of some kind?

You state; "because if it continues on this path it will continue to decline in relative terms for sure." What path is that? Have you been asked to take a pay cut? Work more hours?

Earlier in the thread Arctic84 stated there is no written guarantee against Encore getting jets. I challenged that statement based on what I have previously heard and read on this forum. Is that true or not?

Thanks for your altruistic endevours but I have no future, I'm happily retired.

your full of shit........

[True North]

your full of shit........

How pathetically predictable.

[CAL]

your full of shit........

How pathetically predictable.

If you as a retired pilot assuming that is the case...have nothing better to offer than these guys are a bunch of whiney spoiled brats then you can happily @#$! off....enjoy the fishing and golf...dont worry someone will fly you where you need to go.

[True North]

your full of shit........

How pathetically predictable.

If you as a retired pilot assuming that is the case...have nothing better to offer than these guys are a bunch of whiney spoiled brats then you can happily @#$! off....enjoy the fishing and golf...dont worry someone will fly you where you need to go.

I have offered up plenty. A whole list of questions that you don't have the balls to answer. Why don't you offer up some answers? At least that way you won't look like one of the brats. Are you afraid I'll know when you're lying?

[WJ700]

Arctic 84, no offence but you need a reality check because the 1150 other pilots aren't on here complaining. Paranoia is very easy....trust.....that takes some work. If you don't like things, there are elections coming in January. PACT constitution.....really? If you compare it to a Union it is worded that way to indemnify the representatives as a precaution. Look at other non-union constitutions before making up problems that aren't based on fact......

If trust takes some work then why do you contradict yourself by having representatives indemnified? Can't you just trust... like us regular folk are required to do?

[7thirtyseven]

This thread is so full of spin to promote a union agenda...I'm out......

Well, my friend, do you have a grade three level of comprehension????? The thread is labeled "union at westjet" there is going to be some union "spin". There will also be some plain ol' horseshit (its the www). There will also be some " cultish" spew. You happily threw your two cents in but cant be bothered to stick around, taking the ball and leaving is (kindly) an elementary way of thinking. Labeling hard issues questions and solutions in a somehow negative light doesnt make them go away....
Would you understand this better if I wrote "this thread is so full of childish thinking... I'm out....

Truenorth. If a person sees a future threat to his livelyhood and attempts to at least understand it and perhaps then do something about it while the majority of his/her coworkers would prefer their heads stuck firmly in the sand and the sidelines are chirping spoiled brat.... GOOD FOR HIM.
Heres a quick lesson. The behaviours of corperations are very predictable. Sometimes this behaviour can be masked (usually with money etc etc. But eventually as the lesser mgmnt types buzz towards successs like tge unthinking moths they are the longtime employees become liabilities rather than the "assets" they were previously. This is predictable, it is also predictable that the long time employees because they have both a self interest and a longterm interest in the corp will start to fight back. In WestJets case it will get very heated if only because there are so many employees with such a rosey "picture of potential" in their minds that the backlash against the moths will get harsh.

[TheStig]

In the last year, we have gone to 2 757 flying for 5 months from 1 757 flying for 9 weeks (can I have a show of hands). Next season, look for 3 757. We have B scaled pilots (Encore), F/As, CSAs, and handed over an open-ended, no scope, operation that may decide to fly jets at any time. When asked what would prevent us from being out maneuvered on jet flying, we got "trust us". Okay, why not sign something that says all jet flying at mainline? Sorry, can't be "restricted" . Don't matter to me, I'm so far up the not-a-seniority list that it won't affect me.

It's all very important, because our CASM is becoming too high. Big problem with tenured employees. OTOH, the CEO got a 25% raise in total comp in 2012, and EVPs got a 50% raise. 6 weeks of vacation too. You and me, we get to pick snot rags out of seat backs for the same money as last year.

Arctic, great summary of WJ pilots potential concerns. They sound familiar, but my biggest question for you (as a unionized pilot myself) is do you think a union will be able to fix all your concerns? The role of a union is and has changed drastically in the last decade, and while they can provide valuable services for their members they are proving powerless to prevent executives from doing whatever they want to protect the business' bottom line. Air Canada pilots last three 'collective agreements' haven't been freely negotiated but rather 'awarded' by federal arbitrators.

[7thirtyseven]

My thoughts exactly thestig, but the pilot group at WestJet is in a transition stage. We do need to explore all historical answers as well as other options. WestJet pilots have been bound into a "relationship" that has never been defined and only had lipservice adherance. This over time can, will, and has caused frustrations and resentments on both sides. What we need is some marriage council.

[True North]

Truenorth. If a person sees a future threat to his livelyhood and attempts to at least understand it and perhaps then do something about it while the majority of his/her coworkers would prefer their heads stuck firmly in the sand and the sidelines are chirping spoiled brat.... GOOD FOR HIM.
Heres a quick lesson. The behaviours of corperations are very predictable. Sometimes this behaviour can be masked (usually with money etc etc. But eventually as the lesser mgmnt types buzz towards successs like tge unthinking moths they are the longtime employees become liabilities rather than the "assets" they were previously. This is predictable, it is also predictable that the long time employees because they have both a self interest and a longterm interest in the corp will start to fight back. In WestJets case it will get very heated if only because there are so many employees with such a rosey "picture of potential" in their minds that the backlash against the moths will get harsh.

More drivel.

If there is truly a "future threat" let's hear what it is.

I asked some pretty simple questions that continue to go unanswered, but we know why that is don't we. The answers to those questions do not support the position of the union agitators. They spread rumour and innuendo and outright lies and when they are called on it they disappear or resort to personal attacks (see CAL). It's the same old same old, I've seen it over and over. The unionists are still stuck in the 1930s when lies and intimidation were very effective tools, not so much anymore. The modern workforce is better educated and has access to far more resources.

So 7thirtyseven, until you or someone else steps up and states some real concerns supported by fact, not just rhetoric, you're just whining with an agenda.

Edited to add: thanks for the lesson but I spent 35 years in the industry. There is very little you can teach me about airline labour relations.

[Arctic84]

True North.

You probably won't get a whole lot of your questions answered because your, well, nobody. If you are as well connected as you say you, ask your buddies to show you the Encore MOA, specifically the part that says no jets. If it ain't in writing, it ain't real. Maybe some of the anti-pilot pit bulls here that have access will confirm it for you. Don't hold your breath. And don't call people liars when you don't know what you are talking about. It makes you look foolish.