Instructor and night currency for instructing question

[800man]

Have a question. If an instructor doesn't have their 6 month night currency in order to carry pax, can they give dual instruction, (at night, not the instrument time) towards a night rating for a licensed PPL?

I say no, because regardless if the student has a license or is a 10k hr Atpl, the instructor is still the PIC and the student isn't yet rated.

Several other people say yes however. I guess it depends if you consider the student a passenger or not. I can't find a reference for it.

[Trapper]

This question has been raised before and by definition the person receiving the night training can only be considered a passenger or a crew member. According to Transport Canada they are a passenger so an instructor cannot teach night flying until they have regained their night currency.

Trapper

[Colonel Sanders]

According to Transport Canada they are a passenger

No. If they are a licensed pilot receiving dual instruction
(eg towards the night rating) they are not a passenger.

I am quite happy to discuss this at the Tribunal, Tribunal
Appeal, Federal Court, and Federal Court of Appeals.

People tell me all sorts of silly things all the time, to try
to maniplulate me into doing things. Just because
someone tells me a silly thing, doesn't mean I have to
believe it.

Do you guys ever watch TV? Do you believe everything
that commercials and salesmen and politicians say?

Transport once claimed in court that flight visibility was
measured forward from the front cockpit, regardless of
aircraft attitude. This had the effect of banning all aerobatics
below 18,000 feet. That was silly. So is this.

PS This is especially silly, because you can regain your
night currency in 60 seconds. A lollipop to anyone who
can figure out how.

[frog]

Take off at night then at 10 feet above the ground, chop the power and bounce the plane a couple time and you're done !

[Dagwood]

Take off at night then at 10 feet above the ground, chop the power and bounce the plane a couple time and you're done !

If I do it during the day with my eyes closed, does that count?

[Big Pistons Forever]

CAR 101.01

"passenger" - means a person, other than a crew member, who is carried on board an aircraft; (passager)

"flight crew member" - means a crew member assigned to act as pilot or flight engineer of an aircraft during flight time; (membre d'équipage de conduite)

A student is by definition a "flight crew member" and therefore the provisions of CAR 401.05 (2) B do not apply because they are not a passenger

(b) where a passenger other than a flight test examiner designated by the Minister is carried on board the aircraft, has completed, within the six months preceding the flight,

(B) five night take-offs and five night landings, if the flight is conducted wholly or partly by night,

[DanWEC]

The way I see it, the student can't be a PIC/crew member in any capacity during the trip since they aren't rated for the flight conditions, and therefore not legal to fly if required.
Therefore, the instructor should have the legal requirements to be PIC.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The CAR says "act as a pilot", not be PIC. When a PPL student (no license by definition) is receiving dual he/she is "acting as a pilot", they sure as heck are not "passengers". Why should it be any different for the night rating ? Since they are not passengers the recency provisions for the PIC (i.e. the instructor) do not apply.

[Colonel Sanders]

Take off at night then at 10 feet above the ground, chop the power and bounce the plane a couple time and you're done!

Give the man a cigar. Line up at the runway threshold.
Full power. Get a little airspeed, get the right main up
in the air, then bounce the left main on the runway 5
times, pull the power and land then taxi in.

Congratulations, you are night current.

[mcrit]

This may be a case of, "Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart".

[Colonel Sanders]

One should not confuse the real world and the
paper world. Anyone that does, is in for a lot
of pain, sooner or later.

You do need to keep both the real world and
the paper world happy, but sometimes there
is a conflict between the two. Any experienced
pilot knows that the two are decoupled.

Of note is that on occasion, I have to do some
extremely dangerous things in airplanes to keep
paperpushers on the ground happy. I do not
like that. I do not like that at all, but one does
not ignore the paperpushers.

[mcrit]

I do not like that at all, but one does
not ignore the paperpushers.

Paper pushers are becoming the bane of my existence as well........