GPS on IFR checkride?

[dirtdr]

Sometime this summer I plan on doing my IFR category 3 checkride. My airplane doesnt have an IFR GPS (or any GPS for that matter except my ipad). It has dual VOR's, Glideslope, ADF, DME, alternate air, pitot heat, etc.

Do I need GPS for the ride?

[chipmunk]

Nope.

[photofly]

No.

You simply need to demonstrate a hold, and one precision and one non-precision approach. The aircraft doesn't even have to be IFR certified since you can do the ride in VMC (under the hood, obviously).

[insert witty joke about the alternate air / pitot heat approach]

[ahramin]

Get familiar with the flight test guide before you do the ride:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... nu-965.htm

For an initial you will need to do a precision and a non precision approach. An NDB or VOR approach still works for the NPA. Make sure your marker beacon is working for the precision approach though.

[Lurch]

The aircraft doesn't even have to be IFR certified since you can do the ride in VMC (under the hood, obviously).

How would you file IFR with a non-certified airplane?

Lurch

[Big Pistons Forever]

Make sure your marker beacon is working for the precision approach though.

[Colonel Sanders]

How would you file IFR with a non-certified airplane?

Thoughts:

1) You don't file IFR for an initial instrument ride.
You don't have a rating, after all, and the DPE
isn't about to let you contravene a clearance on
his licence, either.

2) DPE's like to file IFR for renewals, but you don't
have to. Especially if your instrument rating has
just expired. See #1 above.

3) there is no such thing as a "IFR certified" airplane.
No such certificate exists. No one issues them.
You will never find an IFR certification in a journey
or airframe log. Either the aircraft is legal for IFR
flight, or it isn't.

[Taco Joe]

How would you file IFR with a non-certified airplane?

Thoughts:

1) You don't file IFR for an initial instrument ride.
You don't have a rating, after all, and the DPE
isn't about to let you contravene a clearance on
his licence, either.

2) DPE's like to file IFR for renewals, but you don't
have to. Especially if your instrument rating has
just expired. See #1 above.

I've seen lots of people (including myself) file IFR and fly in IMC on their initial rides. Maybe there's a provision somewhere that allows it. Much like the one that allows a PPL candidate to fly with an examiner on board, holding only a SPP?

[Colonel Sanders]

file IFR and fly in IMC on their initial rides

Question. You blow your clearance and flunk
your flight test. ATC files a CADORs. Enforcement
comes looking for a pilot to fine/licence suspension.

Who's instrument rating are you filing on?

I've never met (or even heard of) a DPE that would
hang his licence out in the breeze like that, but I had
a sheltered childhood in a gated community. There
was a black man that lived next door, until he crashed
his SUV into a tree and had his blonde wife knock his
teeth out with a golf club.

[SM16]

file IFR and fly in IMC on their initial rides

Question. You blow your clearance and flunk
your flight test. ATC files a CADORs. Enforcement
comes looking for a pilot to fine/licence suspension.

Who's instrument rating are you filing on?

I've never met (or even heard of) a DPE that would
hang his licence out in the breeze like that, but I had
a sheltered childhood in a gated community. There
was a black man that lived next door, until he crashed
his SUV into a tree and had his blonde wife knock his
teeth out with a golf club.

For any flight test, you are given the full benefits of the license or rating you are going for.
Think of ppl flight test. How are you able to fly withan examiner?

[Colonel Sanders]

Ok. Found TP14277E, and read through it.

On page 109, it says:

for the purpose of this flight test, the candidate is deemed to hold a valid instrument rating and may act as pilot-in-command

But again, I have never met a DFTE,I or DPE that was
willing to do that, especially for an initial in IMC.

If a DPE racked up a pile of CADORs on his flight
tests, I can see TC getting pissed at him.

[SM16]

The examiner is not pilot in command. So the CADOR will be going to the student going for the ride. I also have a thought. Why would you not want them to go into imc. These ppl are fresh off the line and you are giving them the ability to go into imc right after the flit test if you pass. So why not test them to the best of there ability then you would know for future rides, said pilot is capable to fly into imc

[trey kule]

Make sure your marker beacon is working for the precision approach though.

Thats a joke, right? Sorry for not getting it if it is. I did not think Canada used marker beacons anymore, but we still do use them in pretty much the rest of the world.
A bit dense on my part maybe, but can you give me a serious answer.

[SM16]

To my best knowledge, Canada does not have any marker beacons.

[ahramin]

Correct Trey.

break break

I've never met a DFTE who wasn't willing to file the flight test IFR. Don't think they'd last very long out here.

[dirtdr]

Make sure your marker beacon is working for the precision approach though.

Thats a joke, right? Sorry for not getting it if it is. I did not think Canada used marker beacons anymore, but we still do use them in pretty much the rest of the world.
A bit dense on my part maybe, but can you give me a serious answer.

I think that was aimed at a previous post of mine... Wondering what the marker beacon was in the middle of my panel

[trey kule]

Thanks. Sometimes the internet is not good. I was pretty sure it was tongue in cheek, but I have not flown in Canada for a few years so thought they might have brought them back in to service.

[photofly]

there is no such thing as a "IFR certified" airplane.

The EASA type certificate for the Diamondstar DA20 says "Night VFR, IFR, Acrobatic flights including intentional spins are prohibited." The FAA tcds for it is silent on the matter. Transport Canada apparently allows IFR (IMC) flight in the DA20 though.

[Colonel Sanders]

EASA

Sorry, meant in Canada. If one decided to file
IFR in an Aeronca Champ, TC would probably lay
a charge in respect of CAR 605.18:

605.18 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of IFR flight unless it is equipped with

(a) when it is operated by day, the equipment required pursuant to paragraphs 605.16(1)(a) to (h);

(b) when it is operated by night, the equipment required pursuant to paragraphs 605.16(1)(a) to (k);

(c) an attitude indicator;

(d) a vertical speed indicator;

(e) an outside air temperature gauge;

(f) a means of preventing malfunction caused by icing for each airspeed indicating system;

(g) a power failure warning device or vacuum indicator that shows the power available to gyroscopic instruments from each power source;

(h) an alternative source of static pressure for the altimeter, airspeed indicator and vertical speed indicator;

(i) sufficient radiocommunication equipment to permit the pilot to conduct two-way communications on the appropriate frequency; and

(j) sufficient radio navigation equipment to permit the pilot, in the event of the failure at any stage of the flight of any item of that equipment, including any associated flight instrument display,

(i) to proceed to the destination aerodrome or proceed to another aerodrome that is suitable for landing, and

(ii) where the aircraft is operated in IMC, to complete an instrument approach and, if necessary, conduct a missed approach procedure.

However, if one equipped an Aeronca Champ
IAW CAR 605.18, then you could legally fly
IFR in it.

PS Although not explicitly stated in the CAR 605,
I might also suggest a mode C transponder.

[photofly]

Almost every online forum says the DA20 isn't certified for IFR operations (in Europe) because it's composite and isn't lightning proof. But mostly the real reason appears to be that it's certified under the CS-VLA (Very Light Aircraft) category there - under which no aircraft - composite, fabric, or aluminium - may fly in anything other than day VFR. For US certification I can't see anything in FAR23 that relaxes the lightning protection requirements (23.867) for aircraft to be flown in VMC only. Anyone?

[digits_]

But again, I have never met a DFTE,I or DPE that was
willing to do that, especially for an initial in IMC.

If a DPE racked up a pile of CADORs on his flight
tests, I can see TC getting pissed at him.

Is that not the same for any exam you take ? If on a PPL ride you bust 4 CTR's, fly over toronto at 250 ft, won't your examiner be pissed at you either, and won't TC go after the examiner either ? Is that not why they are there as well: to take control if you screw up big time (and thus fail you as well) ?

If on a VFR multi check ride, you crash the plane, won't they get into trouble as well (assuming you all survived) ?

So why is it different for an IFR ride ?

[Rookie50]

Examiners can do the initial ride filed IFR. Personally, I would have preferred it this way but my FTU's arranged examiner preferred simulated so I agreed on my initial ride. One that that will screw you up -- it did me on my initial ride done this way -- is I did it at a controlled field; and right after the examiner gave my my "simulated" departure contact instructions, Tower gave us real departure instructions. Guess which one I listened to, and earned a major error on the test for missing the simulated departure callout.

Hence not a fan of Sim IFR rides, or even training done this way.

[Colonel Sanders]

won't TC go after the examiner

Beats me, but Enforcement won't be happy with
people not complying with their clearances, which
is a perfectly reasonable expectation on a flight
test. Not everyone passes, you know.

I would not be surprised if TC yanked the DPE's
privileges, or even fined or suspended their pilot
licence. It doesn't matter that they weren't the
"PIC". A few years back, TC went after an instructor's
licence after his student broke regs on a solo
training flight - they laid the charges against the
instructor, not the student, for the student's
actions.

[wirez]

file IFR and fly in IMC on their initial rides

Who's instrument rating are you filing on?

I've never met (or even heard of) a DPE that would
hang his licence out in the breeze like that, but I had
a sheltered childhood in a gated community. There
was a black man that lived next door, until he crashed
his SUV into a tree and had his blonde wife knock his
teeth out with a golf club.

Our examiners at Perimeter had our students file on their rides all the time.

[AirFrame]

The EASA type certificate for the Diamondstar DA20 says "Night VFR, IFR, Acrobatic flights including intentional spins are prohibited."

Interesting wording. Could be read that Day IFR and Day Acrobatic flights are permitted.