Signing off ATPL, but need MIFR and some night time

[questionpilot]

Okay so a few things here...

Im working overseas and now require an ATPL for the job...

Exams are done, but I renewed my MIFR in a simulator that doesn't pass the requirements for the ATPL initial sign off (facepalm). I've also tried looking into using a MIFR from the country I'm working in but after some searching it appears I cannot sign off my initial ATPL on anything other than a Canadian registered aircraft, unless someone knows otherwise.

So, now I need a place to get my MIFR signed off in an aircraft as well as log 10 hours of night PIC at the same time. I've heard of guys going to Cornwall and hammering it off pretty easily. I was wondering if there was a place around Toronto that could be suggested.

Oh and if it were close to a Transport Canada ATPL sign off place that would be great! Preferably one that can do it in a day so I can go back to drinking and enjoying my time off.

Thanks a bunch.

TC

[kevinsky18]

I went through the same exact thing. I did my renewal in the sim and then found out it wouldn't count towards the ATPL. Very silly rule as far as I'm concerned.

You're sort of half right about the need to do the ride in a Canadian reg plane. Actually my understanding is you must do the ride with a Canadian approved examiner. The plane does not have to be Canadian registered. We do this all the time, send guys to sim down in the US. If we send our Canadian examiner with them he can sign off on a Canadian license.

Also the ATPL ride can be done in a sim but must be a level D sim which none of the flight schools have. I actually know a guy who did his ride in a airbus sim in Vancouver. He already had airbus time in the right seat and new someone so was able to pull it off. Us average joes won't have that option.

If you have access to a twin and can find an approved Canadian examiner and wanted to pay for their time, airfare etc to come to you then you might be able to do it that way. But in the end it will be cheaper for you to just come home for a month.

I did both my sim renewal and airplane renewal at Pro-IFR in boundary bay. Great bunch of guys there and if you're coming from over seas Vancouver may be just as close as Toronto. Pro IFR has student accommodations for a very reasonable price as well.

[Colonel Sanders]

Go to Cornwall and get either Glenn or Steve to sign off
a Group One (MIFR) in one of their Seminoles. It has to
be in an airplane, if you want your ATPL signed off. Cornwall
also has 172's if you want some night PIC.

YHM has a very good rep as a TC office.

[Chaxterium]

Also the ATPL ride can be done in a sim but must be a level D sim which none of the flight schools have

It would make complete sense but unfortunately that's incorrect. As stupid as it is the ride must be completed in an aircraft. It's possible that there are inspectors who don't push this, or simply aren't aware of it but the regs are quite clear on this. I can assure you that the inspectors in Ontario are very aware of this as it was made very clear to me that my semi-annual 705 recurrent sim sessions would not count. If you know of people who have had their sim renewals accepted for their ATPLs then good on them but by the letter of the law that should not have happened.

Now, having said what I said if you know of any documentation stating that a Level D sim is acceptable I would be very interested to read it!

Cheers,
Chax

DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and

(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.

[Chaxterium]

YHM has a very good rep as a TC office.

Agreed. I was dealing with the Toronto Office on Yonge St. and I received some very unfortunate news regarding my ATPL application. I spoke to the YHM office and spoke to Sharon and although she wasn't able to reverse the decision she bent over backwards to help me any way she could.

In the end she helped me a great deal and I'm very thankful to her.

Cheers,
Chax

[TommyJet]

I am not a Transport Canada licensing inspector but am interested in getting a definitive answer to this question. After trawling through the regulations I think your semi-annual 705 PPC should count. The confusion comes from the fact that in Standard 428 there is a flight test schedule for the Commercial Flight Test, Multi-Engine Rating, Instrument Rating, but there is no schedule for the ATPL skill test.

Standard 421 - Flight Crew Permits, Licences and Ratings...
DIVISION VIII - AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE

421.34 Aeroplanes - Requirements...

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and

(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.

So the only specified manoeuvres are those of the Group 1 instrument rating, and a vague requirement to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures. To me that means that the Schedule to be used for the ATPL skill test is Schedule 8 for the Group I Instrument Rating. The regulation does specify a multi-engine aeroplane and some say that rules out the simulator. However, the regulations for the instrument rating also specify an aeroplane, but we know a simulator counts in this case and is specifically referred to in Schedule 8. If there was a specific skill test Schedule for the ATPL skill test then it would have to refer to a simulator being acceptable but 421.34(5)(a)(ii) means Schedule 8 is applicable.

DIVISION XIV - INSTRUMENT RATINGS
...
421.46 (2) Requirements...
(c) Skill

(i) Subject to paragraph (ii), an applicant shall successfully complete:
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

(A) a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter, in accordance with Schedule 8 “Flight Test for the Issuance or Renewal of an Instrument Rating” of Standard 428 — Conduct of Flight Tests, or
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

(B) a Pilot Proficiency Check (PPC) for operations under IFR in accordance with Part VI or Part VII , as applicable.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

If you delve deeper into the Instrument Rating test schedule it explicitly states that a simulator or approved FTD is acceptable.

Standard 428 - Conduct of Flight Tests...
Schedule 8 - Flight Test for the Issuance or Renewal of an Instrument Rating...
2. Aircraft and Equipment Required for the Flight Test...
(d) The flight test may be conducted in a Level A or higher flight simulator or a synthetic flight training device approved for instrument rating flight test in accordance with TP 9685 - Aeroplane and Rotorcraft Simulator Manual.

So I would think if you already hold a Canadian multi-engine rating and your instrument flight test is conducted in a simulator approved by Transport Canada for the flight test exercises (see also TP 9685 for the different Levels) then the regulations permit the use of your PPC. It wouldn't count if the simulator wasn't specifically approved by TC.

PS. If you look at the regulation for the multi-engine class rating it also states that the skill test must be performed in an aeroplane according to Schedule 7 of Standard 428 but the Schedule then says that a simulator or approved FTD is acceptable for some of the manoeuvres. I suppose which manoeuvres would depend on the level of the simulator http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... b-5496.htm

[Aeroplane17]

YHM has a very good rep as a TC office.

Agreed. I was dealing with the Toronto Office on Yonge St. and I received some very unfortunate news regarding my ATPL application. I spoke to the YHM office and spoke to Sharon and although she wasn't able to reverse the decision she bent over backwards to help me any way she could.

In the end she helped me a great deal and I'm very thankful to her.

Nailed it. Go to YHM when you have your 10 night pic hours and it will get signed off.