Transat to use Foreign Pilots

[mbav8r]

It seems we've come full circle again with the same disturbing illogical response, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT good when SCUMWING uses foriegn pilots as a means to keep cost down at the expense of qualified Canadians losing good paying jobs, not even a little bit good.
Flytoy, you would get more respect if you weren't insulting one of your peers, in my opinion Gilles has earned the respect of every Canadian pilot, even though some don't see it that way. He may be fighting for Transat pilots but that doesn't change the fact it will benefit Canadian pilots as a whole.
That is the point a foriegn company controls or dictates what Sunwing does, I guess we should let that mine in BC just employ chinese workers like they planned, Canadians don't need these good paying jobs, talk about sheep!

Sunwing may have many EU pilots flying here in the winter but we are not laying off Sunwing Pilots while the EU pilots fly our pax. Like Transat. Every Sunwing Pilot will be flying in Europe this summer as part of their reciprocal program. Furthermore Most of the EU pilots flying for Sunwing in the winter are from TUI and Thompson who is owned by TUI which also owns 49 % of Sunwing. Kind of the same company.

Also the point, no other Canadian airline suppliments there operations by requiring a type rating but thanks for making our point for us, maybe you should apply for a PR position with Sunwing, oh wait, they probably don't want that to get out.

Wow hes a wide body captain. If you want to play who has flown the biggest jet or has more time game then for the record I Have flown and been Typed on Foker 100, MD83, Boeing 757 / Boeing 767, Boeing 737-800, and Boeing 747-400. Captain on 3 of them. My 14000 + hours of which 10,000+ are PIC. That then also should get some respect. Who is the low life now? Hudicourt gets no respect from me. He has a one sided addenda to smear Sunwing trying to save transat. Why is his roster blank? Why is he not flying? Babbling on and on about its only takes 5 weeks to train a pilot. Does not talk about the cost of Training, Does not talk about requirements needed before doing a 5-6 week jet course, Does not talk about possible lay offs in the summer then companies have to retrain another pilot because they went elsewhere to pay the bills. We all want and need year round employment. This is a global industry and Sunwing has found a way to keep sunwing pilots employed year round and grow. Sunwing has hired more Canadian pilots and I am quite certain they will hire more.

Who is they scuba? No one sent me. Attack dog ha! I like it. Maybe its transat management who sent Hardicourt to attack Sunwing is that why he is not flying? No one owes him anything we are expanding in Europe and the US. Expansion means more pilots simple.

[rudder]

Here's an idea, perhaps the only reason Sunwing is hiring so much and sending so many to Europe is due to the fact that Gilles has been getting traction with the media and government....perhaps every. New hire at SW and every recent upgrade and every FO/CA who's schedule bidding power recently improved dramatically owes him a few beers...

Perhaps. There is no doubt that Gilles is committed to his cause.

However, I would suggest that the changes in business practices, and in particular SW pilot hiring and dramatically expanded reciprocal deployments to Europe for the summer of 2013, are as a result of SW mgmnt getting clear signals and responses from the authorities in YOW that there would NOT be the same receptiveness to the applications and business model that would permit hundreds of foreign pilots operating on behalf of SW in the upcoming winter travel season. And I believe that the changes that have manifested themselves are in no small part due to less publicised efforts being made on this subject by both ALPA and ACPA. Some may disagree with the visibility (or lack thereof) of that campaign, but it would appear to be provoking some change in the actions of the authors and overseers of policy and regulation.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we do not always see everything that is going on behind the scenes. And that is particularly true in the messy business of government relations. At this point, it may be necessary to evaluate tactics with a view to maximising the result. This government has shown that it is not a big fan of being dissed in the public domain. I would urge both ALPA and ACPA to share with their respective constituents a comprehensive summary of what has been achieved thus far in their lobbying efforts and explain how 2013-2014 will differ from 2012-2013.

[Scuba_Steve]

Here's an idea, perhaps the only reason Sunwing is hiring so much and sending so many to Europe is due to the fact that Gilles has been getting traction with the media and government....perhaps every. New hire at SW and every recent upgrade and every FO/CA who's schedule bidding power recently improved dramatically owes him a few beers...

Perhaps. There is no doubt that Gilles is committed to his cause.

However, I would suggest that the changes in business practices, and in particular SW pilot hiring and dramatically expanded reciprocal deployments to Europe for the summer of 2013, are as a result of SW mgmnt getting clear signals and responses from the authorities in YOW that there would NOT be the same receptiveness to the applications and business model that would permit hundreds of foreign pilots operating on behalf of SW in the upcoming winter travel season. And I believe that the changes that have manifested themselves are in no small part due to less publicised efforts being made on this subject by both ALPA and ACPA. Some may disagree with the visibility (or lack thereof) of that campaign, but it would appear to be provoking some change in the actions of the authors and overseers of policy and regulation.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we do not always see everything that is going on behind the scenes. And that is particularly true in the messy business of government relations. At this point, it may be necessary to evaluate tactics with a view to maximising the result. This government has shown that it is not a big fan of being dissed in the public domain. I would urge both ALPA and ACPA to share with their respective constituents a comprehensive summary of what has been achieved thus far in their lobbying efforts and explain how 2013-2014 will differ from 2012-2013.

You could very well he right, in fact I hope you are...

[rudder]

You could very well he right, in fact I hope you are...

If it can be credibly demonstrated by either or both ALPA or ACPA that as a result of their efforts that there will be material changes on this file going forward (and I believe that process has already begun due to the very visible and substantial staffing initiatives going on at SW) then advocates for even further change will have to be careful about tactics used. The debate should and will continue. However, at issue is in what forum should that best occur? It is common knowledge that this government does not suffer fools gladly. The list is long of groups that have found themselves out of favour and have seen themselves marginalised as a result. That will not bode well for achieving the preferred outcome.

Being right and getting what you want can be two different animals. This is a majority government. Having support from Opposition party members makes for great PR but seldom influences policy. Like it or not, the best ally in this debate is the Government. So what we hope is that those with access will continue to have access and as a result influence the actions of Government. ALPA and ACPA have both traditionally had this type of access. It is my understanding that they are making the most of it. I would just like to hear a little more in the way of a progress report.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I know that ALPA has been working on the foreign pilot file at least as far back as 2009. They were meeting with HRSDC and CIC back then. What progress has been made? Between 2008 and today there has been an annual increase on the number of foreign pilots working in Canada with the winter 2012-2013 being the worst. Last fall I heard assurances that the government had been receptive and that the programs that allowed foreign pilots into Canada would be tightened. Air Berlin pilots were refused reciprocity work permits but Sunwing just turned around and asked HRSDC for LMOs and they gladly obliged, although with a slight slap on the wrist that they would have to hire more Canadians by next winter which they are in the process of doing. Then what? They will hire 45 Canadians and use that as an excuse to obtain LMOs for how many foreign pilots next year ? 150? 200 ?

[trey kule]

[quote]Here's an idea, perhaps the only reason Sunwing is hiring so much and sending so many to Europe is due to the fact that Gilles has been getting traction with the media and government....perhaps every. New hire at SW and every recent upgrade and every FO/CA who's schedule bidding power recently improved dramatically owes him a few beers...[/quote

Here is a thought. Perhaps, just perhaps, as a few of us posted almost a year ago, Sunwing's plan was to reduce the number of foreign pilots they needed as their business model matured....and that is exactly what they are doing. As a result of all this hated hiring of foreigners for a few years, we are now seeing much more opportunity for Canadian pilots.

Even Canadian pilots who were laid off by one of its competitors who could not figure out how to operate profitably, but had the biggest magpie suggesting to allow them to compete easier with a profitable company.

Seems some have run to the front of the parade and are claiming it a personal achievement for pissing off just about everyone except the 'its all about me' crowd, rather than recognizing it would have happened regardless if they were trying to rip SW apart for eating their company' lunch.

It will be interesting this year to see if AT. increases the number of foreign pilots they use. I don't expect much ballyhoo will be made of that.

[Flytoy]

mbav8tr : MB is that not a training facility? Are you a student pilot? You can not compare pilots to mine workers it does cost 40,000 to train a mine worker and they dont have to come with license qualifications and experiences. If I owned the airline I would not like to pay for the training and have many of the pilots leave in the slow months just to en-cure the costs again. The ebenflow of pilots from EU to Canada benefits Pilots on both sides of the pond. I will concede it is not balanced. On a personal note I would like to see the numbers even out and I am confident they will over the next few years. Maybe I am wrong about that but I hope they will. As for respecting Hardicourt No. I don't have to just because he is a wide body Captain. He has not earned my respect at all. I really don't care if you or he respect me either.

[Donald]

Wow hes a wide body captain. If you want to play who has flown the biggest jet or has more time game then for the record I Have flown and been Typed on Fokker 100, MD83, Boeing 757 / Boeing 767, Boeing 737-800, and Boeing 747-400. Captain on 3 of them. My 14000 + hours of which 10,000+ are PIC. That then also should get some respect. Who is the low life now?

JetsGo alum?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It's easy to act brave and cocky when one hides behind a alias. It's even easyer to be rude and insulting. Flyboy sign your name under your next post.

Gilles Hudicourt

[Chilly willy]

Wow hes a wide body captain. If you want to play who has flown the biggest jet or has more time game then for the record I Have flown and been Typed on Fokker 100, MD83, Boeing 757 / Boeing 767, Boeing 737-800, and Boeing 747-400. Captain on 3 of them. My 14000 + hours of which 10,000+ are PIC. That then also should get some respect. Who is the low life now?

JetsGo alum?

With a stint at China airlines...

[24Left]

As for respecting Hardicourt No. I don't have to just because he is a wide body Captain. He has not earned my respect at all. I really don't care if you or he respect me either.

I respect you because you tell it like it is. I was on widebody, among other aircraft. None of that crap matters. These ego elites are in for some life changes when Air Transat tells them that Foreign Pilots will be operating on their behalf. Wait until Air Transat sends them a memo that foreign pilots or foreign aircraft will be doing some of their flying and upsetting the apple cart at Air Transat. Then what will they do? A) Strike B) Shut up and fly the plane? I choose B because these guys won't strike and risk Air Transat shutting down and opening under a new name and hiring all foreign pilots. Air Transat has been around a long time and with the support of the Quebec government they survived. They better hope a pro Quebec politician wins during the next election so that Air Transat can be considered a Historical Cultural Airline of Quebec and more money gets poured into saving it.

[frog]

Whether somebody is a wide body captain or not has nothing to do with the respect he/she deserves.
However whether or not one agrees with Gilles Hudicourt one has to admit that the guy has been polite in all discussion, so for that matter he deserves respect and I found that the people who keeps twisting his name are not really respectable.

[wrc]

Good work Gilles! Keep up the fight!

[Mooney21]

As for respecting Hardicourt No. I don't have to just because he is a wide body Captain. He has not earned my respect at all. I really don't care if you or he respect me either.

I respect you because you tell it like it is. I was on widebody, among other aircraft. None of that crap matters. These ego elites are in for some life changes when Air Transat tells them that Foreign Pilots will be operating on their behalf. Wait until Air Transat sends them a memo that foreign pilots or foreign aircraft will be doing some of their flying and upsetting the apple cart at Air Transat. Then what will they do? A) Strike B) Shut up and fly the plane? I choose B because these guys won't strike and risk Air Transat shutting down and opening under a new name and hiring all foreign pilots. Air Transat has been around a long time and with the support of the Quebec government they survived. They better hope a pro Quebec politician wins during the next election so that Air Transat can be considered a Historical Cultural Airline of Quebec and more money gets poured into saving it.

24Left, please expand and provide the basis of your affirmation: "Air Transat has been around a long time and with the support of the Quebec government they survived."

[rudder]

I know that ALPA has been working on the foreign pilot file at least as far back as 2009. They were meeting with HRSDC and CIC back then. What progress has been made? Bettween 2009 and today there has been an annual increase on the number of foreign pilots working in Canada with the winter 2012-2013 being the worst. Last fall I heard assurances that the government had been receptive and that the programs that allowed foreign pilots into Canada would be tightened. Air Berlin pilots were refused reciprocity work permits but Sunwing just turned around and asked HRSDC for LMOs and they gladly obliged, although with a slight slap on the wrist that they would have to hire more Canadians by next winter which they are in the process of doing. Then what? They will hire 45 Canadians and use that as an excuse to obtain LMOs for how many foreign pilots next year ? 150? 200 ?

Gilles,

There is no doubt that there will be foreign pilots flying SW aircraft this winter. Some will be here flying G-reg aircraft on wet-lease. Some will be here flying C-reg aircraft under reciprocity provisions. And unfortunately, some may be here under the TFWP based on an asserted LMO. But what this winter will not look like is 2012-2013.

Winter 2013-2014 at SW will see a permanent pilot seniority list that by public accounts will have grown by 70+ permanent pilots. Most of these pilots have already been hired and once again by some public accounts will be flying in Europe this summer along with many more SW pilots.

I have no doubt that SW will be looking at bringing as many as 100-150 pilots from Europe for the winter season. The issue will be whether this is a proportional undertaking to the SW crew deployments in Europe this summer in bodies, term, and volume of work (i.e. proportionality). I hope that you will continue your diligent monitoring of these statistics so that there will not be any further abuses in this regard. As you have already noted, FLVC is becoming less of an issue since Canadian licensing of some foreign air crew effectively renders the argument as moot. I suspect that you are aware of this owing to discussions that took place amongst affected pilot groups during the recent IFALPA conference in Ireland.

I know that one of your principal concerns is that AT will 'mirror' the SW practices at the expense of the AT pilots. It may eventually evolve that AT deals with seasonal fluctuations in capacity using some of these same tools. That is a discussion that the AT pilots need to have with their employer and Groupe Transat. In the meantime, continued dialogue in the appropriate venues is the best strategy to advocate for creation, modification, and oversight of policies that will best protect the employment security of Canadian pilots. We should hold our representatives accountable in this regard while at the same time remain realistic about outcomes. It has been my experience that trying to achieve total victory when it comes to Government will almost certainly result in disappointment. For example, I do not believe that it is achievable to completely eradicate foreign wet-lease approvals but I do believe that the terms of use of foreign wet-lease aircraft can be better described and therefore controlled.

I sincerely hope that we will get more information on this file and that the changes in application of policy will continue to manifest themselves in a visible fashion.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

How will we react when Air Transat begins to make use of foreign pilots ?
How will we react when Air Transat begins to call its summer wide-body operations to Europe "seasonal" ?
How will we react when Air Transat begins to call their winter narrow body flights to southern destinations "seasonal" ?
How will we react when Air Transat begins to claim that it's not "cost-effective" to hire and train Canadian "seasonal" pilots ?
How will we react when Air Transat begins to hire type-rated European pilots for its seasonal flights ?
How will we react when Air Transat employs more foreign seasonal pilots than it employs Canadian pilots, making it the second Airline in any G20 country to have such a situation, the first one also being "Canadian" ?
How will we react when Air Transat begins to wet-leases foreign aircraft as part of its permanent business plan ?

Unless the airline that already does all of the above is made to cease and desists, we may soon know what its like for an airline who once hired over 430 full time Canadian pilots and operated 23 aircraft year-round to outsource most of its business to foreign aircraft and pilots.

[trey kule]

How will we react when a profitable airline continues to hire more and more Canadian pilots each year?

How will we react if a provincial darling airline that can not make a dime, has to play on a level field, and not try to change it by claiming the competition is being mean or doing illegal things.

How will we react when an airline has people stirring the pot to simply try and get rid of the competition?

Unless the airline , that instead of trying to compete fairly, stops having its employees claim they are working for the good of all and attacking every differing opinion, government agency, regulator, and having their mindless gang showering their targets with emails, we can expect a Quebec based, inefficient, money losing airline to replace a profitable growing one. And all the permanent Canadian pilots working there to be laid off.

Which one deserves to survive? The one growing profitably and hiring more permanent Canadian pilots each year, or the one that appears to employ professional whiners and shit disturbers. Who has the wrong mix, poor management, and a rather weird policy of dealing with the competition.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Mr Kule Klux Klan, would you dare write any of this under your real name ? Of course not.

Let me set the record straight. I've been flying in Canada since 1990 and I do not know any pilot at Westjet nor do I know anyone who has ever been interviewed there (If any of the 1200 to 1300 Westjet pilots know me personally, please state so here).

Would you call Westjet "Provincial" ? Of course not! Because they are from an Anglo Province and hire practically nothing but Anglos like you, and predominantly from western Canada. So it's OK. You are only called "Provincial" if you happen to be from that part of Canada where French is predominantly spoken.
French people who insist on becoming pilots should stick to flying beavers in Northern Quebec as far as you are concerned, right ? Except for the few who were able to join the purgatory of the RCAF and thus become honorary Anglos that can be somewhat tolerated in a jet cockpit.....

That Transat made a profit just about every year from its creation in 1987 to 2010 (23 years in a row) and broke all Canadian records of longevity for Canadian charter companies, while the likes of Ward Air, Canada 3000 and Skyservice went under, really bugs the likes of you. How can that be ? They must have cheated. So now you act as though this never was or was an anomaly of nature that is finally being rectified.

You want to, but cannot write that this was only possible because the Separatist Party Quebecois Provincial Governments subsidized and backed Transat all these years, but you know that all would call your lie if you dared to openly write it. So you insinuate it, hoping your Klan buddies will back you up here and applaud your venom. But Transat is and always has been a publicly traded company that was well run without subsidies of any sort. It never filed for bankruptcy. It never defaulted on loans. It always paid all its suppliers. The likes of NavCanada, the Airport Authorities and all the usual airline suppliers never had to raise prices on other airlines to make up for defaulted Transat debt like they had to do for all the other companies that declared bankruptcy over the years, some more than once.

But since 2010, Transat has been competing with an airline which benefits from the dumping of Foreign Aircraft and foreign pilots and you call that competing on a level playing field ?
Since 2010, Transat has been competing with an airline which uses more foreign pilots than Canadian pilots and you call that competing on a level playing field ?

Mr KKK, do you think all readers of this forum are stupid ? Probably not. You probably hope many are members of your Klan and rejoice as you do at the smell of Quebec blood ?

Why don't you crawl back under your rock and stay there. You are in the wrong century. By a couple centuries at least.

[trey kule]

Your a class act, Mr. h

[aerosexual]

Since 2011, Transat has been competing with an airline which benefits from the dumping of Foreign Aircraft and foreign pilots and you call that competing on a level playing field ?
Since 2011, Transat has been competing with an airline which uses more foreign pilots than Canadian pilots and you call that competing on a level playing field ?

Mr KKK, do you think all readers of this forum are stupid ? Probably not. You probably hope many are members of you Klan and rejoice as you do at the smell of Quebec blood ?

Why don't you crawl back under your rock and stay there. You are in the wrong century. By a couple centuries at least.

Captain Hudicourt, You are accusing Sunwing of "dumping" during the winter season. However, Sunwing seems to be filling its airplanes and making a strong profit doing so, which negates your theory entirely.

Captain Hudicourt, you take this further and state that Sunwing illegally brings in foreign airplanes and pilots under various methods. This is something Sunwing itself protested when Canjet did the same on behalf of Transat Vacations. The government disagreed. Therefore Sunwing did the right thing and competed directly against this new threat using the same methods as allowed by the government.

If your fight were less targeted at Sunwing and more focused on general industry practices, which your corporate parent partakes in, then it would be more forthright.

[Takeoff OK]

Your a class act, Mr. h

Trey, you are either too stupid or too stubborn to realize that you are on the wrong side of this argument. Of the hundreds of pilots I personally know, who work for every airline in this country, and many in other countries, I cannot think of one that agrees with your line of logic. Not one.

Stop attacking Gilles. Everybody understands your logic. ALMOST NOBODY AGREES WITH YOU.

[mars4]

Trey Kule has an inverted logic that simply does'nt make any sense :

Just like his pseudo (or unlike his pseudo), he really is not "très cool" ...

There absolutely no way Trey Kule can understand your arguments Gilles :
I have to admit I am absolutely amazed that you are still trying to argue against him ...

May be try this : reverse psychology

"Illegal foreign pilots : good
Legal Canadian workers : bad"

You should start getting some results : it totally works with my 3-4 yeas old kids
when they are a bit too stubborn ...

[TG]

and hiring more permanent Canadian pilots each year

Absolutely none of it comes from Gilles fight, not even 0.1%
You know, the idea of being able to use foreign crew forever. Because no "revised rules" or "rules being finally followed" will come up setting the record straight.




(I'm sort of working the inverted logic too)

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Captain Hudicourt, You are accusing Sunwing of "dumping" during the winter season. However, Sunwing seems to be filling its airplanes and making a strong profit doing so, which negates your theory entirely.

Captain Hudicourt, you take this further and state that Sunwing illegally brings in foreign airplanes and pilots under various methods. This is something Sunwing itself protested when Canjet did the same on behalf of Transat Vacations. The government disagreed. Therefore Sunwing did the right thing and competed directly against this new threat using the same methods as allowed by the government.

I didn't write Sunwing was doing any dumping. I wrote that Sunwing was benefiting from European Airlines dumping aircraft and pilots on Canada.

If airlines in Europe had idle aircraft and pilots in winter and sent them to Canada to put them to profit and then took an equal number of Canadian aircraft and pilots while these were idle in Canada in the summer and brought them over to Europe to help out during Europe's high season it would be fair, just and would be called reciprocal exchanges.

But last year Sunwing sent 4 aircraft and a proportional number of pilots to Europe for the summer and in exchange, European airlines sent 19 aircraft and a proportional number of pilots to Canada.

That is called dumping.

Canada and Europe both have the same problem of having a peak season and a low season one in the summer and the other in the winter. Why then is the exchange so imbalanced in favor of the Europeans?

Because the imbalance is profitable to both Sunwing and to the Europeans. The Europeans dump and Sunwing benefits from the dumping. TUI benefits both ways.

[True North]

Your a class act, Mr. h

You're right, he is.

You on the other hand, are an embarrassment to your company and the entire profession.