Does one three-point a DC-3?

[photofly]

I was having a moment of curiosity, and thought the mavens of AvCanada might be able to help.

If I remember right, all the landings of the Buffalo DC-3's that were featured on TV were wheel landings. Is it not done to three-point one?
If that's correct, is it something that applies more generally to larger tail-wheel aircraft, that wheel landings are preferred?

Thanks for any comments.

[lownslow]

I have zero DC-3 experience but I recall reading somewhere (perhaps a Gann book?) that three pointing one greatly increases the risk of "breaking its back."

I imagine someone with actual experience will be along shortly with a better answer.

LnS.

[Cat Driver]

I think I can answer the question.

The DC3 is quite easy to three point, however for many reasons they seldom are.

Three pointing a DC3 is no more risk of breaking its back than any other tail wheel airplane.

I have over five thousand hours in the 3 and most of the three point landings I did were on wheel skis to reduce the touch down speed on rough surfaces......occasionally we 3 pointed on runways with no passengers just for something different.

The DC3 is one of the nicest airplanes ever made as far as flying characteristics goes.

[Colonel Sanders]

A wheel landing is normal for a Beech 18, DC-3, C-46, etc.

Only if you were really trying to put it into someplace really
short (for example) would you slow it down and 3-pt it.

Sad news - last weekend, I saw the only C-46 (or so they
claimed) that was still flying in the lower 48 states. They're
going away fast ...

Hey, it was fun to watch the Lancaster land on grass. I
think Leon Evans (nice guy) was flying. Also fun to watch
a DC-3 drop jumpers.

[RadicalRadial]

At Buffalo they three point the C46s and wheel land the 3s.

[Meatservo]

I have a tendency to "one-point" tailwheel aeroplanes, but that's because I'm not particularly good at it.

[PilotDAR]

I was trained to not three point the DC-3, by an extremely competent training pilot.

[Cat Driver]

I was trained to not three point the DC-3, by an extremely competent training pilot.

What was his reason for such a limitation?

The DC3 is one of the most predictable and responsive airplanes ever made, three pointing is a common method of landing on rough snow/ice conditions so as to minimize the touch down speed and thus be easier on the airplane during landings. The ski hydraulic rams were prone to failure if you pounded it over rough hard snow or ice.

I would be interested in his reason for such a limitation because I find it strange.

[Doc]

I was trained to not three point the DC-3, by an extremely competent training pilot.

Interesting. Pretty much always tried to three point them on skis. Usually ended up landing mains first with the tail wheel almost touching at the same time.
Had a short gig in Atlanta, Georgia teaching a CP to wheel land.....so they three pointed them down there, full time.
Heard that the BT67's have to be three pointed (Liquid Charlie?) to prevent inadvertent yaw if one engine reverses earlier than the other? Have 6K in Daks, but never had a ride in the new one.

[iflyforpie]

Wouldn't you just wheel land and then wait until the tail is planted before going into Beta?

It doesn't seem that you'd be too concerned with landing distance if you wheeled it on, and the DC-3 never had Beta in the first place.

I'd kill to get some time in the Douglas Racer (but I won't go to Hay River ). A friend of mine had a lot of fun with Borek in theirs at that bottom of the world.

[Strega]

A wheel landing is normal for a Beech 18, DC-3, C-46, etc.


Sad news - last weekend, I saw the only C-46 (or so they
claimed) that was still flying in the lower 48 states. They're
going away fast ...

Didnt know china doll was airworthy

[Colonel Sanders]

Didnt know china doll was airworthy

Not sure if it is or not, but it flew both days!

[PilotDAR]

We did not go into the details of why three point is discouraged, but the "we don't three point BT-67's" was clear and memorable to me as I was about to try it during a training flight. There are some times in my life when I do not question instruction, (too few, probably) and flying with Basler's really great training pilot is one of them!

I can say that appropriately cautious use of reverse is no problem with the tail up on the roll up.

[Liquid Charlie]

Heard that the BT67's have to be three pointed (Liquid Charlie?) to prevent inadvertent yaw if one engine reverses earlier than the other? Have 6K in Daks, but never had a ride in the new one.

Whilst I am still learning the subtle idiosyncrasies of the DC3NG the first thing I will say the classic is a much nicer flying airplane - why -- i"m not exactly sure but because there is almost a 4 foot plug adding to the keel surface and the removal of the heavy round engines it has changes the characteristics of the airplane somewhat -- but getting back to the original question -- yes we "wheel" it on and use beta and even into reverse with the tail still up - close to 3 point on unprepared strips as Doc and Cat mentioned slow is good on eskers on wheels and skis.

On the plus side -- turbines are nice and she is certainly a lot faster than the old DAK -- it's like the 580 -- push the power up until red line on the indicated is achieved and cruise away --

PS - It's still a DC-3 -- not a Basler -- lmfaoooo

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't know why, but I'm rather fond of this photo:

[pdw]

I was trained to not three point the DC-3, by an extremely competent training pilot.

What was his reason for such a limitation?

The DC3 is one of the most predictable and responsive airplanes ever made, three pointing is a common method of landing on rough snow/ice conditions so as to minimize the touch down speed and thus be easier on the airplane during landings. The ski hydraulic rams were prone to failure if you pounded it over rough hard snow or ice.

I would be interested in his reason for such a limitation because I find it strange.

An extremely competent training pilot would consider you'll be flying other larger aircraft sooner or later, ... if the DC-3 was just used for general training, then no need to bother. Landing so close to stall speed while aiming for the numbers might open some pilots up for a mishap sooner than others ?

[Doc]

I was trained to not three point the DC-3, by an extremely competent training pilot.

What was his reason for such a limitation?

The DC3 is one of the most predictable and responsive airplanes ever made, three pointing is a common method of landing on rough snow/ice conditions so as to minimize the touch down speed and thus be easier on the airplane during landings. The ski hydraulic rams were prone to failure if you pounded it over rough hard snow or ice.

I would be interested in his reason for such a limitation because I find it strange.

An extremely competent training pilot would consider you'll be flying other larger aircraft sooner or later, ... if the DC-3 was just used for general training, then no need to bother. Landing so close to stall speed while aiming for the numbers might open some pilots up for a mishap sooner than others ?

Where DO you come up with this stuff??

[pdw]

Take for instance the 777 in KSFO:

Except for the seawall ... wasn't that nearly a three point landing ?

[TG]

Asiana in San Francisco was a crash, end of the story.

From what I've learn about the DC-3T we don't "three point it" unless it is really necessary.
I never flew the piston 3 before but I have no problem believing Liquid Charlie saying that the turbine version is another ball game all together.
I came with a B-18 back ground and so far I found the 18 easier to handle (on the ground that is)

Give me more time on it and I'm sure I will change my mind.

[Liquid Charlie]

Take for instance the 777 in KSFO:

Except for the seawall ... wasn't that nearly a three point landing ?

---- mmmmm -- 3 point a tricycle geared airplane -- ya -- that's a crash - at the very least a reportable event -- or a bounce if it's the nose wheel -- or a station 60 or any amount of metal twisting

WTF -- 2 different things -- the difference -- you are trained for a reduced speed over the fence and a slow touch down on skis or an unprepared strip -- it's briefed and the crew is working in unison - the airplane is not going to stall -- unlike the seawall it was a complete breakdown in CRM and they were already in trouble around the FAF where the speed was in a steady decay -- you are also comparing a jet to an old airplane with straight fat wings that has an immediate response to power and is a light airplane -- a bush plane if you were -- while I don't have experience on a 777 I do have experience on aircraft around 200,000 lbs and while a heavy jet is likely easier to fly than a prop driven airplane the technique is different -- I doubt that the accident in LA was 100% pilot error when you consider human factors and company policy the fact remains it should not of happened -- they obviously were not paying attention -- why -- is the question --

[PilotDAR]

An extremely competent training pilot would consider you'll be flying other larger aircraft sooner or later,

No.... the DC-3T/BT-67 is the larger aircraft for me. He knows that, and so do I. He was training me for the 3, not other unrelated types. I was busy enough learning the 3, no need to dilute the effort with consideration of unrelated aircraft operations.....

[white_knuckle_flyer]

The DC3 is quite easy to three point, however for many reasons they seldom are.

Cat, you gave us a reason why you would 3 point, but no examples of when/why you wouldn't.

Can you do so ?

[Shiny Side Up]

Where DO you come up with this stuff??

I thought it was already established that pdw was just the Colonel trolling after he's had a few.

[Cat Driver]

Cat, you gave us a reason why you would 3 point, but no examples of when/why you wouldn't.

Generally speaking when there are passengers on board the wheel landing is more comfortable for them because when you three point it the attitude seems to be very nose high.

And of course it is easier to wheel land it.

[roscoe]

The only really hard landing I sat through in the Dak, including 5 seasons of Arctic wheel-ski ops, happened when the left seat knob disregarded some hints about the quirks of the particular aircraft. It was an ex MillardAir three with the massive fairing and gear doors. The right seat pilot cautioned the LSK (several thousand Hrs military Lancs, Dak North Star etc) twice during the approach (CAVU) not to try a three point as she would land hard and bounce. Well the inevitable attempt was made followed by a tooth rattling, kidney smashing kershmuck on the ground, and dead silence all the way to the ramp, a journey I thought would never end, partially due to my blurted out "Holy s**t what happened". No place to hide in the jump seat. It was thought that when the ship entered the three point attitude, the disrupted air flow and turbulence caused by the gear doors caused the tail to drop, making the landing a tail wheel first arrival. He did it once more so I was told, then gave it up.