Flight Training Frequency

[RyanHealy29]

Hello all,
I'm just in ground school now looking to start my in-plane stuff in August. I have a question regarding frequency. The ground school instructor recommended for best results that we do our in-plane lessons at a rate of 3 or 4 times per week (higher frequency means less review, less hours, less money, etc)

I don't know that I'll be able to manage to fit 3 or 4 different days into my schedule, so would I be just as well off doing three hours of lessons on a single day once per week versus doing three one hour lessons on three separate days?

From a learning perspective, is there any specific advantage to doing one lesson per day, and more days per week, versus one day per week and more time on that day?

Thanks
Ryan

[CpnCrunch]

I know some of the flight schools will disagree, but I don't really think you need to fly 3 or 4 times a week. Once a week is fine. I flew mostly once a week and did my PPL in 57 hrs. It did take me almost 2 years, but that's just because I took some periods off.

As for your second question: there definitely is an advantage to spreading your lessons over the week rather than doing them all on the same day. The first problem is fatigue: when you are learning you'll get tired, and once you get tired you won't learn as well. The second issue is actually being able to process what you have learned - that generally happens during sleep.

[Shiny Side Up]

Typically for new students I'll do only an hour at a time. Their brain is usually full after that. Then they need a break. Whether we do more than one lesson in a day depends on if they do any ground work between lessons. I've yet to see a student do that, so most students I'll do only one lesson per day. Doing more lessons per week generally helps if you want to finish close to the minimum time and reduce the overall calendar time to finish. What is optimal though changes from person to person.

[Colonel Sanders]

I would recommend starting with one flight lesson
a day (wx permitting) if you want to get your PPL
in minimum elapsed time with minimum hours (cost).

As you get more used to being in the airplane, you
can increase it to two flights a day (e.g. circuits).

In my experience, more than two training flights per
day is a waste of your time and money, if they are
both challenging flights.

Other obligations (work, familty, etc) tend to throw
a monkey wrench into the plans, though!

[Shiny Side Up]

In my experience, more than two training flights per
day is a waste of your time and money, if they are
both challenging flights.

As is trying to hammer through a bunch of hours in a row. This is always tough to convince students of, since one thing they bring to flight training is the idea that they need to get "hours". At the end of an hour's lesson (barring stuff like the nav lessons - which naturally as the longest lessons come last) with basic ab intio stuff, the student has either a) got it after an hour so its time to go back and prepare for something new, or b) Isn't getting it, so its time to take a break and approach it anew. I found this worked wonders during my own PPL a long time ago, when occasionally you have trouble with stuff. If something isn't working after all, you need to come up with a different plan or approach, and you're not going to do that in the air, at least not until you're somewhat more advanced as a student.

That said though, there's lots of other things to do if you have time to dedicate to flight training. Read the entire FTM multiple times. Read through FTGU. Study for your PSTAR. Nothing drives me crazier than a student who comes to me and says "I want to work as much as I can on this to get as much done in a short time" and then never cracks a book. If I find you on the ground playing Angry Birds, or texting your buddies, or trying to squeeze in a call from work, then you aren't dedicating the time you need to bother with more than one lesson per day.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

You've already gotten some good advice, but allow me to pile on.

I'm not sure where you are located, but when I did my PPL here in southern Ontario, it was often the case that 3 bookings per week turned into 2 or even 1 due to weather cancellations. Even moderate winds may keep you grounded when you are just starting out. ( The Colonel is likely rolling his eyes from that previous sentence ).

I would book at least two or three 1-hour sessions per week, knowing that at least one of them is likely to get cancelled.

[Colonel Sanders]

Even moderate winds may keep you grounded when you are just starting out

Hang on, hang on.

Sure, for initial solo, you need very benign wx.

But when you are receiving dual instruction, I
would hope that your instructor is not similarly
restricted. I just landed, flying on the edge of
a Cb, which was fun. It's good for you to
experience the turbulence created in the proximity
of a Cb.

Pop Quiz: which side of a Cb will hail get tossed
out of? This is not an academic question.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Instructor availability can also be a consideration. Sitting down with your instructor at the beginning and booking a schedule of lessons is a good idea.

The pre and post flight reading/studying is just as important as the actual flying. For this reason, unless the student is working on his license full time, I will not book more than 3 lessons per week.

[CpnCrunch]

Even moderate winds may keep you grounded when you are just starting out

Hang on, hang on.

Sure, for initial solo, you need very benign wx.

But when you are receiving dual instruction, I
would hope that your instructor is not similarly
restricted. I just landed, flying on the edge of
a Cb, which was fun. It's good for you to
experience the turbulence created in the proximity
of a Cb.

Already too many students flunk out of their PPL for various reasons without the instructor scaring the bezeezus out of them in their first couple of lessons. It's also not much fun cleaning up the puke.

[JMACK]

Even moderate winds may keep you grounded when you are just starting out

Hang on, hang on.

Sure, for initial solo, you need very benign wx.

But when you are receiving dual instruction, I
would hope that your instructor is not similarly
restricted. I just landed, flying on the edge of
a Cb, which was fun. It's good for you to
experience the turbulence created in the proximity
of a Cb.

Pop Quiz: which side of a Cb will hail get tossed
out of? This is not an academic question.

This better not be a trick question like what are the lines on the side of the valve covers!
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the down wind side easterly maybe under the anvil no wait my final answer is ask the Cat!

[RyanHealy29]

Thanks for all the advice guys. So the plan for a huge day on Saturday is definitely scrapped.

I really want to be ready for my flight test in the minimum hours. Not because of the cost of going to 60 or so, I won't be bothered at all if that happens, but just sort of as a personal challenge to myself. Based on that I want to try and do at least 3 hours a week.

I talked to my ground school instructor today and he echoed all your statements regarding one very full day. Potential fatigue + possibility one bad weather day could wipe out a whole week = bad idea.

I'm thinking now what I'll try and book is two one hour lessons on separate days during the week, and then either one one hour lesson on Saturday or perhaps even two one hour lessons with a break in between if my instructor is on board.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

Thanks for all the advice guys. So the plan for a huge day on Saturday is definitely scrapped.

I really want to be ready for my flight test in the minimum hours. Not because of the cost of going to 60 or so, I won't be bothered at all if that happens, but just sort of as a personal challenge to myself. Based on that I want to try and do at least 3 hours a week.

I'm not sure if my flight school was the norm, and others can chime in, but I was told flat out that they would not sign off on you for the flight test at the transport minimums. If I recall correctly, I was told they required a minimum of 60 hours to sign off.

[photofly]

That seems silly; if you're ready for the test in fewer than 60 hours, why delay things?

[Colonel Sanders]

would not sign off on you for the flight test at the transport minimums ... required a minimum of 60 hours to sign off.

Requiring a student to fly unnecessary training is
known as "milking" in the industry.

I have signed off students at the minimums many
times, but I am a Bad Man (tm) that will sometimes
land only on one wheel in a crosswind

PS Just sent a guy solo in his Pitts S1S. Insurance
required 5.0 hrs dual, and that's exactly what he
had in his logbook when he did it!

I am sure your instructors at your FTU are teaching
people to fly much more challenging aircraft, like the
Gee Bee Racer.

[shitdisturber]

I'm with the Colonel on this one. I'm long gone from flight training but I never had a qualm about signing off a student once the requirements were met. Hell, I've signed off more than one student after telling them; "you've met all the requirements except the 45 hours, take that airplane up and don't come back til you've got it."

By the way; without exception, those I signed off at or near the minimum time were flying four or five days a week.

[JungianJugular]

The pre and post flight reading/studying is just as important as the actual flying. For this reason, unless the student is working on his license full time, I will not book more than 3 lessons per week.

+1 - when I did my PPL while working full time, I booked more than I could handle and underestimated the amount of review I needed to do after each flight. Lesson learned!

[AirFrame]

Excellent advice all around. I'll add that (in my opinion) one hour a week for a year should get any competent pilot his/her license.

Once you have an instructor you like, book the same instructor for every lesson.
Each time you have a lesson, book another one two weeks out (you'll already have one the following week, so you're two weeks ahead).
Don't worry about missing one due to weather. If you do, try to squeeze one in some other time that week, and if you can't then hang out at your local flying club and listen to hangar talk from the old pilots instead. A lot of them have great stories you can learn from, and few of them are on AvCanada.

That's all I can think of... But it's Friday and i'm half-way through a large beer.

[Cat Driver]

I'm not sure if my flight school was the norm, and others can chime in, but I was told flat out that they would not sign off on you for the flight test at the transport minimums. If I recall correctly, I was told they required a minimum of 60 hours to sign off.

Pure robbery.

That is twice the amount of time we needed for the PPL in the early fifties and we learned on Cessna 140's not Cessna 150's.

How fuc.in stupid can people be to put up with that ripoff, if TC sets a minimum that is what the minimum is.

[Shiny Side Up]

How fuc.in stupid can people be to put up with that ripoff, if TC sets a minimum that is what the minimum is.

This is why I've been consistently saying that part of the problem with flight training is the customers of flight training. I hate to say it, but the flight school is selling a product, no ones forcing people to buy it. If they get people willing to accept that the school's PPL minimum is 60 hours, and there's a market for it, well all the power to them. Just like if I went to a haberdashery and the salesman can convince me that I need both a belt and suspenders, so I buy both and start my own new fashion trend, well all the power to him. If you feel your flight school is a rip off, don't go there. Shop wiser.

Bad schools stay in business, because people keep giving them busniess, often even after they've been ripped off, and know they've been ripped off, repeatedly.

[Guzen]

Get your instructor to write their recommendations down on paper. There seems to be a huge discrepancy in the way that people get their licence. Some do it in a few months, some in 3 years or longer.

[Colonel Sanders]

part of the problem with flight training is the customers of flight training

That's a bit glib. Like saying that part of the problem
with rape, is that the woman was in the same time zone.

Customers are the victim, man. You can blame the
victim, I suppose, but at least the majority of the
problem lies with the predators.

This problem is not unique to FTU's. When you are
hiring any tradesperson to perform a specific, skilled
technical task - be it a doctor, a lawyer, or a general
contractor - nearly by definition, the tradesperson
(in our case, the flight instructor) knows more about
the trade (in our case, aviation) than the customer.

At least, I would hope so!

If you hire a bad doctor, a bad lawyer, or a bad
contractor to put an extension on your house, well,
that's going to be a similar experience to hiring a
bad flight instructor. Unpleasant experience, with
lots of money spent and not much to show for it.

And, you won't know you hired a bad tradesperson
until it's too late! In life, first comes the test, then
comes the lesson.

Remember, Mike Holmes is famously quoted that
90% of contractors are either outright thieves or
incompetent, and I suspect he's not off the mark
if we apply his advice to flight instruction, too.

Most flight instruction is really quite poor. Every
once in a while, someone will get some really good
flight instruction, which is an illuminating experience.

I remember someone on here said that they struggled
through their flight training, and in 5 minutes, the
examiner taught them how to use the rudder.

The above is wrong on so many levels. IMHO, most
flight training is really bad. And you won't know that,
until you experience some really good flight training.

Possibly from your Pilot Examiner!!

[Colonel Sanders]

This better not be a trick question like what are the lines on the side of the valve covers!

Sorry about that - I f__ked up. I phoned Lycoming up,
and they said even they weren't sure what they really
meant.

A tad extreme on the developmental side. But you
must admit that they're awfully pretty: http://i.imgur.com/sZikFbJ.jpg
Powdercoating rocks!

But back on the thread-jack:

which side of a Cb will hail get tossed out of?

This is a very relevant question, and that is the discussion
that I hoped would arise from my rather baited comment
about landing on the edge of a Cb.

We can even back the thread-jack up a step or two, and
ask the basic questions first:

- What are the dangers of flying near a Cb?
- How close is too close?
- Are there different kinds of Cb's that need more distance?

[Beefitarian]

For the time being you'll get a hit and run comment from me regarding the prettiest of clouds, the cb.

I don't spend enough time around them, the planes I fly could likely shed it's wings if I make a mistake getting to close, so I'll keep my interactions with them simple and just maintain a couple of miles of separation.

[Bede]

The student's capacity for learning plays a large part in the frequency of flight training.

There is quite a bit to know to get a PPL from scratch but it's not the most difficult material out there. IMHO a 20 year old kid that can handle an engineering program will have the capacity to absorb flying twice per day (keep in mind some days get weathered out).

[Shiny Side Up]

That's a bit glib. Like saying that part of the problem
with rape, is that the woman was in the same time zone.

Comparing free market economics to rape is a bit glib as well. Our whole world works on this principle that you're going to have to occasionally bargain with your fellow human beings. Students are no more "victims" of flight instructors (though many would like to languish in that role) than your employers are "victims" of your wages (or vice versa, I don't know how you feel about how you're being paid) the point is, unlike rape victims, students/customers are willing participants. Just like many other customers.

Customers are the victim, man.

If we persist with that mentality, then they will always be so.

And, you won't know you hired a bad tradesperson
until it's too late! In life, first comes the test, then
comes the lesson.

Remember, Mike Holmes is famously quoted that
90% of contractors are either outright thieves or
incompetent, and I suspect he's not off the mark
if we apply his advice to flight instruction, too.

I've watched Mike Holmes a bit and while I feel bad for these people, you often get the same stories. The parallel to flight training is there in how many people you see part with their money unwisely. Uneducated customers, who frequently don't bother to take any precautions and throw money to the wind. One would think that with the information that Mike Holmes is getting out there, that the "customer taken by bad service provider" stories would dry up, but they don't. Even with that valuable resourse of advice about how to make sure you don't get taken and it still happens. They aren't comming up with new scams you know, the old ones still work because people aren't learning from them. Its starting to get really hard to feel sorry for most human beings.

With the easy access to information out there people should be getting more knowledgeable, right?

The above is wrong on so many levels. IMHO, most
flight training is really bad. And you won't know that,
until you experience some really good flight training.

I don't really believe that anymore. People know when stuff ain't right, even if they can't pinpoint what specifically. What they're prone to is not doing anything about it. People like to be bullshit to and they shy away from the hard realities of the world all the time. They love convinience, they don't like their feelings hurt, and unfortunately most like to remain ignorant.