Advanced Ultralight Instruction and Rental in GTA?

[roelsl]

Guys,
I’m knocking on your doors again for some advice and insight.

I am a private pilot that recently moved from Atlantic Canada to the GTA.
I love flying but the rising cost of avgas, the stringent regulations and the extreme rental rates for a decent Cessna are not making is easy to be in the sky.

I discovered advanced ultralights a while ago. Nice, good looking yet safe airplanes that are fun to fly. The average person (e.g. my wife) could not tell the difference between a classic Cessna 152 or an FK9. They are cheaper to operate and fly.

I am looking into setting up a business, purchasing an advanced ultralight, and maybe get my instructor rating as well, to pass the skills and knowledge to other persons. I would also rent this airplane to interested pilots.

Do you think there would be interest for this around the GTA? This would be geared towords:
- non-pilots in GTA wanting to learn to fly on ultralights
- existing Ultralight pilots looking for nice rental aircraft
- existing PPL pilots looking for an affordable way of flying

Legally, PPL holders can fly UL’s, but a checkout is strongly recommended

Thanks folks!

[photofly]

Where?

[roelsl]

Brampton, Burlington, Holland Landing, Schomberg, ...??
So probably West, North-West

[Scout44]

I'm not sure of it's current status, but isn't there an AULA operation similar to what you've described at Edenvale? I suppose the locations you're talking about might save a little time on the drive from the GTA, but you wouldn't be the first on the block in the extended area.

I would say the concept is interesting, but you'd want to do a lot of due diligence on the demand.

[roelsl]

Hi Scout44,
Yes, Edenvale is a great place, nice AULA there but it's quite a drive if you live in the GTA and want to do a quick evening flight around the block to relax. Toronto Aerosport is another great school, they are in Baldwin, also not really GTA. There's an AULA at Volk Airfield (Schomberg). Closer but still a drive.

So what I'm saying is: I'm missing an affordable, safe and convenient AULA for rent within the GTA.

You're 100% right about doing due diligence about demand and all the other fun stuff (legal, financial, ...) involved.

[white_knuckle_flyer]

I'd be interested, so there are at least two of us !

[Panama Jack]

Check out this bunch! Looks like some fun flying to be done there and apparently they are AULA's:

http://savageaircraft.ca/

[Cat Driver]

How much does a Savage cost?

[roelsl]

A new Savage will set you back about 75k, depending on the model.
Unsure of cost of a used one.
They are located in Bradford. Same issue as before: it's quite a drive from Toronto.
Still don't know if I will have enough interested pilots to rent a decent AULA to located in GTA ...

[Beefitarian]

Have you checked out these?
http://www.pipistrel.ca/

I have read mostly positive things about the virus, if you search here you'll find some conversations about them.

[roelsl]

All very nice airplanes, but my original question was not so much about types, makes or models
My main concern still is: will there be enough interested pilots to rent a nice AULA in the GTA?

Cheers

[YYZSaabGuy]

I'd be interested, so there are at least two of us !

Three..........

[Beefitarian]

You won't know until you buy something and try to rent it.

You could be overwhelmed by people claiming things like. "Yeah buddy! I'll rent that thing 5 hours a week." Then way less will actually follow through.

I invited a couple hundred people to a barbecue once, most said yes. We had a lot of free food and booze left over when about a third actually showed up. I'm not making that up, free beer and assorted coolers people RSVP by phone to written invitations then did not come.

Sorry, if you're counting I'll be honest. Can't do it.

Yes - 3
No - 1

[roelsl]

@ Beefitarian Thanks for your honest answer.
How about free booze and food when you rent the airplane

[Panama Jack]

Don't know how lucrative something like this would be as a stand-alone business; ultralight Flight Schools are more like free-lance Flight Instructor arrangements in the US as far as they don't have to jump through all of TC's high hoops for regular schools.

Most guys who have an UL school basically are one guy, an airplane, and they do it as a side business besides their day-job; helps pay for the plane and they get a thrill out of instructing stick & rudder, grass-roots aviation. It won't send any kids to college or make you rich, though.

You should join UPAC and talk to President Kathy Lubitz. UPAC also has a small manual they cooked up titled "Starting and Operating an Ultralight Flight Training Unit." She and her husband run a school from their grass strip out near Kitchener and they host the annual UPAC Convention and General Meeting/Fly-In August 16-18. Probably worthwhile to chat with her to talk economics and other topics of starting-up and maintaing a FTU.

Of course, UPAC can tell you where all the other UL FTU's are in the area.

[roelsl]

Attending the annual meeting of UPAC was high on my priority list for a while, sure thing! Thanks for the details!

It’s true what you say about a lot of Ultralight operations being a one-man/airplane operation, run as a side-business. Honestly, there’s nothing wrong with that! It’s actually the very nature of this branch of general aviation: grass roots, small scale, personal, …

But I always feel that there are only two extreme choices for the average recreational GA pilot in the GTA that is looking to fly a few hours a month without busting the bank or compromising safety.

On one side you have a one-man Ultralight Operation from a barn on a muddy grass strip, a long drive away, no website, hard to find and unsure what airplane you might find.
On the other hand there’s a professional run flight school with a fleet of Cessna’s where you can fly for a rather high price, but you are a number and everybody is wearing uniforms and you feel silly walking in with shorts on.

My vision is to create something in the middle for the GA pilot in the GTA. A place where recreational pilots (PPL or UL) can rent an affordable, well maintained and nice aircraft (advanced ultralight that has all the perks of a certified a/c), runned and maintained as professional as possible but still with a personal approach.

Cheers

[photofly]

On the other hand there’s a professional run flight school with a fleet of Cessna’s where you can fly for a rather high price, but you are a number and everybody is wearing uniforms and you feel silly walking in with shorts on.

There's at least one place in the GTA with a fleet of Cessnas where there is not a gold bar in site, after three flights everyone knows you by your first name, and pilots in shorts are most welcome. (PM me if you want details.) It's still a high price though.

[Panama Jack]

Well, it is an intesting business idea. I wish you every success. One thing you need take a good luck (and I admit I don't know much about it) and this could be a deal breaker, is the issue of insurance, especially for solo rental pilots. Is it available and what will it cost you?

This was the scary part for me while I was doing some time-building flying on an AULA. No Hull insurance was available (or at least it didn't cover me) and I had to sign a form basically saying that I could be on the hook for as much as $35,000 (replacement value) of the aircraft if I broke it. That is pretty scary (to me at least), especially considering it was powered by a 2-Stroke Rotax, but I was highly motivated to get done what I needed to do and there were no other reasonable alternatives.

Having said that, there is always room in the market for somebody who provides a better service than anybody else. Structuring it as a Club may be a good way to address insurance issues, get a greater sense of ownership and responsibility from your pilot customers and, of course, get them to fly more to keep the revenue stream going. Could also inject an atmosphere and camaraderie that is lacking in so many flying schools these days.

I highly recommend you listen to the following podcast from aviation author, Gregory Brown. His book "The Savvy Flight Instructor" also gives great ideas on flight instruction as a business:

https://goto.webcasts.com/starthere.jsp?ei=1016836

I personally think that the future of recreational aviation in Canada is with ultralights, due to their economics,in a similar manner that LSA was debuted in the USA. Part 23 aircraft are becoming increasingly squeezed out of budget. Unless you need something that spins more than one prop, has more than 2 seats, or something IFR capable, the demands can be met by BULAs and AULA's.

[albertdesalvo]

They are located in Bradford. Same issue as before: it's quite a drive from Toronto.

Where is this Bradford International Airport of which they speak? I've owned a house in Bradford since 2002, and I've never encountered this airport in my travels. Could it be that guy with the grass strip beside his house up on the 10th line? Hee!

Bradford is actually a quick and easy drive from Toronto..... at 5am.

[Lotro]

For some reason, here in Canada I think ultralights are scary. Part of it is because LSA doesn't exist in the same way in Canada as it is in the US and part of it is because when you're training all you think about is REC vs. PPL - no one mentions ultralight.

I was at KOSH last year in a J3 Cub and learned that technically that's LSA in the States and even considered an advanced ultralight here in Canada. I keep telling my wife she should get an ultralight license and then we could buy a cub which she could fly. But I digress.

You might be most successful if you manage to work a relationship with a local FTU (Brampton? Burlington? Buttonville? Island?). Get one plane and try to get pilots who are being trained interested or curious about it. The whole system is designed for you to get a license on a Cessna, and then fly a Cessna. By making another type of aircraft available to people while their training, they might stay on board afterwards. Certainly a cost conscious pilot later in life who's fulfilling a lifelong dream would be interested in saving a few dollars after getting their license.

I've never flow an ultralight, but if one was available, I'd certainly give it a whirl.

[roelsl]

@ albertdesalvo Here's Brafdord International for you: http://archive.copanational.org/PlacesT ... &ap_id=880

@Lotro

I agree with the scary connotation, but it's only an image and not reality since a well maintained advanced ultralight (AULA) is as fun and safe to fly as a cessna 152.

Advanced UL's (AULA) in Canada are LSA's in the USA
Basic Ultralights (BULA) in Canada are often what the US calls ultralights.

In the training of pilots, the entry point is indeed considered Recreational License and from there you can move up. If you look at the needs and actual flying behaviour of a lot of GA pilots, an advanced ultralight license would be a better fit (VFR flight for about an hour, once or twice a month, getting your $100 hamburger). And it's cheaper for sure.

You are right when you say the trick is to tap into that pool of future pilots or pilots that are just starting and will consider moving to UL's

Thanks for the response, I love this discussion!

[Jungle Jim]

There's also the Barrie Flying Club at the Barrie- Springwater Airport. The have a Tecnam and Sports Star that they use for instruction and rentals.

Jim

[Colonel Sanders]

the future of recreational aviation in Canada is with ultralights, due to their economics

Ultralights have been around for a long time, but
you still don't see as many of them as you might
expect. Years back, they had a lot of fatal accidents
but I haven't heard of many lately. Not sure if that's
simply fewer hours flown or not.

I have always been surprised how expensive flight
training is on ultralights. Not much difference than
certified aircraft at an FTU, around here at least.

Homebuilts are much more popular than ultralights,
from what I see.