Encore and ATPL

[loopa]

Is encore hiring guys that have a frozen atpl? By that I mean somebody with a CPL/IR/ATPL exams and a type rating on a 705 machine causing your exams to be frozen?

Or do they want the unrestricted ATPL from the get go even if you are only a few hours of total time away from achieving your A's? The reason I ask is the ATPL sticker can usually take 3-6 months to arrive in the mail, so would it be worth a shot to apply at Encore if you wouldn't be seeing the left seat in 2-3 years anyway? I know that you have to answer YES to ATPL for your application not to get rejected.

Thanks!

[Howitzer]

If you have to answer YES to not get rejected, there's your answer. If you lie and its found out, good bye job. But lets not get into that story again...

[loopa]

Exactly what I'm trying to prevent... so on that note is a frozen atpl valued?

Thanks!

[redbaron]

You know there's no such thing as a "frozen ATPL" in Canada right? So it seems unlikely that WestJet would care that much vs someone who has just the IATRA, although I certainly have no direct knowledge of this.

[loopa]

While I agree with you, there's an excerpt in the CAR's that states that the IATRA or ATPL exams are frozen upon completion of a type rating on a 2 crew aircraft.

I know it is the exams, but one has to wonder what the difference is for a company for a guy that only needs total time for an atpl vs a guy that has it... especially if that person won't be in a position to upgrade on their planes for a while anyway. Especially when the answer to all the other questions they ask about FMS/>12.5/Airline Exp/ETC is yes, it seems kind of odd that they would get hung up on an ATPL when every other requirement is a yes and all that person needs is a few hundred hours added to their logbook. Hence why I thought they might value a situation as mentioned in the OP.

421.40(3)(a)(i)(B)

[bcflyer]

If the requirements say they want an ATPL, then I would think they want an ATPL. You either have one or you don't. Its pretty black and white.

[DH772]

[quote]Is encore hiring guys that have a frozen atpl? By that I mean somebody with a CPL/IR/ATPL exams and a type rating on a 705 machine causing your exams to be frozen?

Or do they want the unrestricted ATPL from the get go even if you are only a few hours of total time away from achieving your A's? The reason I ask is the ATPL sticker can usually take 3-6 months to arrive in the mail, so would it be worth a shot to apply at Encore if you wouldn't be seeing the left seat in 2-3 years anyway? I know that you have to answer YES to ATPL for your application not to get rejected.

Thanks![/quote]

Unrestricted ATPL ?? Not sure what kind of magic license you have but plain and simple all you have is a commercial license. So if they state ATPL then that's what you need. I think the Frozen ATPL is more of an advantage for the candidate then for the employer. For ex, what advantage do you have over a king air captain still operating under a commercial license?

You wouldn't be seeing left seat for 2-3 years? Not sure your sources but all they are hiring right now are captains (hence the ATPL and experience).

3-6 months for your sticker to arrive? Again, not sure where your sources are coming from. Everyone I know (including myself) got their sticker within 2-4 weeks.

[loopa]

Ok I think that answers the question I was looking for.

CPL + ATPL EXAMS + TYPE RATING in 2 crew 705 does not account for you having the contents of a Frozen Atpl, so hence WJ would reject your application.

DH772, that's awesome that it tooks 2-4 weeks. Personally I have come across people that have taken up to 3 months sometimes 5... depends which region you submit it in.

[Jack In The Box]

FWIW, I've been waiting 2 months for my sticker and I'm still likely a month away. I'm in YWG.

[chinglish]

Pacific Region, I dropped my paperwork off in person and two weeks later I had my sticker. I don't know if that helps?

[altiplano]

Based on WestJets history of hiring guys saying they had ATPLs when they didn't they may be a bit sensitive of you stretching anything on this matter... I would just press the TC office, tell them you need it for an upgrade and extended wait time is holding you back...

[loopa]

Based on WestJets history of hiring guys saying they had ATPLs when they didn't they may be a bit sensitive of you stretching anything on this matter... I would just press the TC office, tell them you need it for an upgrade and extended wait time is holding you back...

Ya I remember, wasn't it that guy that said he had an ATPL went through his training and then they found out he didn't and got let go?


More so for the purpose of this thread I was wondering if they would credit guys that have their ATPL written and a 705 type rating because that freezes your exams in the very same fashion as the good old JAA ATPL gets frozen in Europe. Was more so curious if there was an area of the consideration process they hadn't looked into. As well I was wondering if "wjhr" or somebody with inner knowledge would shed some light on this.

Thanks to all the replies!

[whiteguy]

Based on WestJets history of hiring guys saying they had ATPLs when they didn't they may be a bit sensitive of you stretching anything on this matter... I would just press the TC office, tell them you need it for an upgrade and extended wait time is holding you back...

Ya I remember, wasn't it that guy that said he had an ATPL went through his training and then they found out he didn't and got let go?


More so for the purpose of this thread I was wondering if they would credit guys that have their ATPL written and a 705 type rating because that freezes your exams in the very same fashion as the good old JAA ATPL gets frozen in Europe. Was more so curious if there was an area of the consideration process they hadn't looked into. As well I was wondering if "wjhr" or somebody with inner knowledge would shed some light on this.

Thanks to all the replies!

I keep hearing about these frozen ATPL exams when you obtain a 705 type rating but I can't find anything written about it??? Anyone have a link?

[Krimson]

I keep hearing about these frozen ATPL exams when you obtain a 705 type rating but I can't find anything written about it??? Anyone have a link?

The SARON/SAMRA do not expire with a two-crew type rating. 400.03(2)(b)(i).

400.03(1) Subject to subsection (3), written examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24‑month period preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(a) a student pilot permit; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(ii) for the issuance of the former senior commercial pilot licence, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the senior commercial pilot licence was issued; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(iii) for the issuance of an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane, an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane integrated course was successfully completed during the 5-year period preceding the date of the application for the licence and a course completion certificate was issued.
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

[loopa]

One would almost imagine that the intent behind that CAR as well as 421.40 is to "freeze" your ATPL's even though we don't have such a thing in Canada.

Again, if WJHR or somebody with inner knowledge can shed some light on if u guys credit for this or not then that's awesome!

Thanks!

[Krimson]

It is the exact same thing as the JAA equivalent "frozen" ATPL. People just don't like the word frozen in Canada (for some bizarre reason )

Don't know about WJ, but try giving them a call or sending a PM to WJHR.

[whiteguy]

I keep hearing about these frozen ATPL exams when you obtain a 705 type rating but I can't find anything written about it??? Anyone have a link?

The SARON/SAMRA do not expire with a two-crew type rating. 400.03(2)(b)(i).

400.03(1) Subject to subsection (3), written examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24‑month period preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.
(amended 2012/02/19; previous version)

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(a) a student pilot permit; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(ii) for the issuance of the former senior commercial pilot licence, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the senior commercial pilot licence was issued; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(iii) for the issuance of an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane, an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane integrated course was successfully completed during the 5-year period preceding the date of the application for the licence and a course completion certificate was issued.
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)

Great, thanks!

[loopa]

For anyone else that's wondering I got the official word from WJHR.

They won't select you, even for a F/O job with Encore unless you have an unrestricted ATPL.

Thanks!

[Jack In The Box]

One would almost imagine that the intent behind that CAR as well as 421.40 is to "freeze" your ATPL's even though we don't have such a thing in Canada.

Care to share where? I cannot find it anywhere in there. I am curious too, because I hear a lot about a large aircraft type rating extending the validity of your exams but I do not believe this is true.

[loopa]

Hey Jack,

If you read above my reply you see a bunch of great references from the CAR's that validates the exam being frozen.

[Jack In The Box]

Hey Jack,

If you read above my reply you see a bunch of great references from the CAR's that validates the exam being frozen.

I do not. The only thing I see you mentioned is CAR 421.40. I read it and see nothing about "freezing" exams. Can you post more details?

[loopa]

My interpretation of 421.40(3)(a)(i)(B) is that, if the SARON/SAMRA exams have been completed within 24 months of receiving a type rating on a 2 crew aircraft, the requirements of the exams is considered met meaning that you don't have to rewrite the exams every 2 years until you submit your ATPL application.

Do you read it differently?

[Jack In The Box]

CAR 421.40 (a)(i) says:

(i) Knowledge
An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots shall have completed a program of ground school instruction and flight training on the aeroplane type, and

and (B) says

(B) in the case of the applicant who has obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Airline Transport Pilot Licence-Aeroplane written examinations (SAMRA and SARON) within the 24 months preceding the application for the endorsement of the rating, the written examination requirement shall be considered to have been met; or


A holder of any pilot license cannot obtain a 2 crew-aircraft type rating without satisfying a knowledge requirement that is not likewise required for a 1 crew-aircraft type rating. There are a few ways to do this, as outlined in this section you mentioned.
1) A commercial pilot license or private pilot license holder can write the IATRA exam
2) An applicant can write the ATPL exams within the preceding 24 months (as laid out in section B)
3) An ATPL holder is considered to have met the knowledge requirements
4) An applicant can write the ATPL exams within the preceding 5 years with an approved TC program (as laid out in Section D)

I take this section only to mean that the ATPL exams (if written within the preceding 24 months) are sufficient to meet the "knowledge requirement" for a 2 crew type rating as described by this section. I support this argument by suggesting you consider section (A) which deals with private pilot or commercial pilot license holders who must have written the IATRA, or section (C) which discusses ATPL holders. All I see in these paragraphs is saying that either an ATPL license, an IATRA, or the ATPL written exams satisfy the knowledge component required by a license holder to hold a type rating on a 2 crew aircraft. Nowhere do I see anything about the 24 month "validity" of the exams being extended.

I would agree with you if this were talking about the knowledge requirement to apply and receive an ATPL license, but this section is talking about applying for and receiving a 2 crew-aircraft type rating.

I had to read through that 3 or 4 times...CARs are not my thing.

[onetreehill]

Get a life.

[Aeros]

Hey Jack,

If you read above my reply you see a bunch of great references from the CAR's that validates the exam being frozen.

I do not. The only thing I see you mentioned is CAR 421.40. I read it and see nothing about "freezing" exams. Can you post more details?

CAR 421.40 isn't the one that covers this case. The applicable information is in 400.03(2)(b)(i). That regulation starts by saying that any exam for a licence or rating must have been written in the 24 months prior to the application for the licence or rating. (2)(b)(i) then says that the 24 month requirement does not apply to the application of an ATPL if the ATPL exams were previously written to meet the knowledge requirements for a two-crew type rating and the type rating was actually issued.

421.34 (the requirements for an ATPL) don't impose a time limit the exams so the only time limit that exists is imposed by 400.03 (which is then removed, leaving no time limit) in the case of someone that relied on SAMRA and SARON to earn a two-crew type rating.