337 Gear Up is Saskatchewan

[Doc]

Maybe the accident forum should be called "everyone's a crappy pilot except Doc". Seriously dude. You sure sit on a high horse. The pressure you place on yourself must be incredible. After all the crap you dish out to people who make mistakes you must be quite afraid of screwing up.

Doc, we're all human. Sometimes we make mistakes. We fall and get up again but you're setting yourself up for a pretty big fall.

Just think what a good pilot you'd be if you paid as much attention to your own backyard as you do trying to dump on me? WOW. Get a life.
"everyone's a crappy pilot except Doc"?????? Must really bother you, on a personal level that I've managed to fly for in excess of 25000 hours and ALWAYS remembered my wheels. Really pisses you off doesn't it?
You are correct. We are all human. And sometimes humans make mistakes. Hell mate, I have NEVER come on here and claimed that I was incapable of making mistakes. WHERE HAVE I STATED THIS???? Quote me or shut the F up. I grow weary of your constant badgering. I say "I will never forget the gear....." Does this insult your manhood in some way? PISS OFF!!

[CFR]

I will not throw stones as ive made my own stupid mistakes, I just believe that this one was 100% avoidable ...

Unless it is a new combination of events not seen before, virtually all accidents are "avoidable" (I prefer preventable) If you go far enough back in the chain 99.9% of the time there is a human failure involved that should not have happened. Everyone makes mistakes, and that means everyone (Doc included), it is the consequences of the error that makes the difference. Missing checking the pitot heat is only an issue if a) you missed it AND b) it was not working AND c) it was needed on that particular flight. There is a probability equation that would tell us how often the three events would occur and then identify likely outcomes, from nothing (clear day, no ASI - survivable) to fatal. So it may take a while for the events to line up in the correct order. On the other end of the scale, missing putting the landing gear down will always result in a serious event and yet the cause was the same, missing a step in the checklist (mental one or otherwise). This is why those events that have a higher liklihood hood of a negative outcome have multiple preventive measures in place (for gear - checklist, crosscheck, three little lights, a mirror, a backup system and a deep booming voice or alarm telling you your gear is still up) and yet we still have gear up landings.


edited to add new b)

[AuxBatOn]

See Doc, I am sure the pilot in question knows he did something stupid. You don't need to remind him being condescending. Shit happens. Instead, why not take an instructionnal approach and go to the root cause (stupidity is not it) and learn from it. Raise awareness on some issues that could push pilots to forget gears. I don't think any pilot in ideal conditions would forget the gears. Let's take a look at an example:

The incident aircraft was number 2 of a two plane A4N SKYHAWK formation which was providing Interim Contracted Air Training Services (ICATS) to the CF 18 fleet at 3 Wing. The aircraft had a civilian registration and was flown by a civilian pilot. The formation completed the tasked mission and was recovering to a left hand overhead break for landing on runway 29 (Rwy 29) at Bagotville.

The pilot in number 2 was distracted by a radio communication problem and failed to lower the gear. The aircraft landed gear up and crossed the arrestor cable slicing the external fuel tanks in half. The aircraft continued down the centerline of the runway showering sparks underneath the ruptured tanks. No fire developed, and the aircraft came to a stop with approximately 6000' of runway remaining. The pilot shut down, egressed from the aircraft and waited for the emergency vehicles to arrive. Emergency response vehicles were on scene quickly and the site was secured. The aircraft received “D” category damage. There were no injuries.

The Flight Safety Investigation revealed that the pilot became distracted during a critical phase of flying. This distraction resulted in an interrupted pre-landing check, and subsequently the landing gear was never lowered.

The pilot in this accident was very experienced, with approximately 15,000 flying hours. This accident underscores the fact that distraction is a hazard that can affect all aircrew, regardless of experience level.

To raise the awareness of the hazards of distraction, and to provide techniques on dealing with distraction, 1 Canadian Air Division has incorporated a module on distraction on the Human Performance in Military Aviation training courses. Although this accident involved a civilian contracted aircraft flown by a civilian pilot, the lessons learned can be applied to all aircrew.

So, instead of yelling and calling someone names for making a mistake, we look at how can a 15000 hr pilot with combat experience off of carriers does the simple mistake of forgetting the gear. Pretty simple in this case. Yup. He fucked up. Now lets find out why and educate people (especially young guys) on how to avoid a similar situation.

Yelling and calling names just undermines your credibility Doc. Take a different approach and I may agree with you.

[Doc]

An A4 Skyhawk, on a break is a long way from a C337 on a VFR approach. In work load alone. Distractions. There are distractions that must be dealt with right now, and some that can wait, and be dealt with on the ground. Different phases of flight govern which abnormalities can be dealt with, and which can not. An engine fire inside the FAF, for example can be dealt with after landing. Too important here to deal with just flying and landing the plane to deal with something that can foul the approach to a point of a missed, consequently really "loading the deck" against you. I put you, a communications problem on a break would fall well within the category of "deal with it on the ground".....would you agree? Screw it, lets land this puppy and deal with it on the safety of dry land.

A pilot just landing a 337, and simply "neglecting" to "bother" lowering the landing gear is a different kettle of fish. This is not paying due attention to your job. Which in my book, at least, is to at the very least, bring your employer's airplane back in the condition it was when you took it?

I'm not arguing the point that mistakes are not going to happen.....but, there are "mistakes", and then there are "mistakes".

AuxBatOn, I respect your opinions. I really do. I just don't think there are distractions in the vast majority of these "Gee, I forgot the gear..." incidents. It's just not caring enough about the here and now......the mind wanders....Yours does. Mine does. It's just I feel (and everybody knows it) that there are certain phases of flight that deserve your (and my) undivided attention.

We've all seen the Israeli pilot land the F15 after his entire wing was pretty much torn off his bird? He didn't really realize the extent of the damage, but he had to be about as DISTRACTED as a pilot could be.....but he PUT HIS GEAR DOWN for landing! If this guy had dropped it on it's belly, nobody would have said squat....but he showed he cared about his job.....which is to run his scans for the phase of flight .....which involved seeing the landing gear lights turn GREEN.

Am I wrong to badger these pilots like I do? Frankly, I don't think so. This is such an unacceptable, unforgivable F up, there should be MORE badgering going on. This has to stop.

[CID]

Doc, seriously? Inside the FAF you're going to disregard the AFM and any SOP and just ignore an engine fire????

Oh...I forgot. You have shown contempt for published procedures and more specifically SOPs in the past. You have your own "common sense" approach to these things.

So let's think about this 337 with an engine fire. Let's make it the front one for kicks. You just passed the FAF and there are flames and smoke coming flying out of the cowling. "Screw the procedures, let's just land this thing", right?

Approach speed is about 90 KTS in a 337 so that means (on a typical approach let's say 3 miles on average) it would take about 2 minutes to reach the MAP and a few more seconds before you're in the flare. And you seriously would ignore the fire and continue to burn for more than 2 minutes?? Wow.

A pilot just landing a 337, and simply "neglecting" to "bother" lowering the landing gear is a different kettle of fish.

While you're cooking your kettle of fish you may want to look up the the proper use of quotation marks. You are literally assigning words to the narrative that don't show up officially ANYWHERE! You are putting words into the mouths of these pilots and it's not only outrageous and insulting, it's incredibly arrogant.

Is it surprising to you that that F15 pilot didn't forget to put the gear down? If it is, it answers a lot of questions for me regarding your attitude. If you were familiar at all with CRM principles and the causal relationship between workload and accidents you would understand that human perform much better with a moderate level of stress. With these kinds of accidents it's the mundane, it's the monotony, it's the (I'm going to use a big word here so get out the dictionary) "complacency" that grows from doing repetitive and mundane tasks that sometimes cause the brain to skip a step.

A pilot in the middle of an emergency has all of his/her senses piqued. They are much less likely to miss operational details at least until they break down in to panic. But that's an entirely different topic isn't it?

Doc, Human Factors have the word "Human" for a reason. It's not Robot Factors or Ostrich Factors and any "Human" who stands up and declares themselves immune to these factors, no matter to what degree, really shouldn't be in the pilot's seat in my opinion.

Have a nice day and please, for the safety of your passengers who just want to get from point A to B without turning in to a smoking hunk of carbon, consider running the fire checklist before you land.

Have a nice day.

[floatpilot]

Flying the bug.


More avoidable than making sure there is gas in tank before going flying???? I see this as 100% avoidable but I'm just an ass!

Carry on

[Doc]

CID. Obviously feather, fuel off, firewall close. But I wouldn't run the whole checklist till in the ground. Don't know why you're so concerned about ME. I say again. PISS OFF!

[CID]

OK Doc. Let me see if I have that procedure straight: Backtrack, backtrack, backtrack, backtrack, backtrack.....

[BverLuver]

CID,

How do you go a single day without getting yourself knocked out? Give it a rest already, you have become very boring!

BL

[Doc]

CID is now on my foe list. I can't see his posts anymore. Now he's talking to himself. Personally. I've had enough.

[CID]

BverLuver,

I do OK. Mostly because I tend to stick to facts. I don't call pilots stupid because they make a mistake. Maybe you should be asking Doc why someone hasn't taken a swing at him. Can you imagine Doc walking up to this accident pilot and berating him for bellying in?

[CID]

CID is now on my foe list. I can't see his posts anymore. Now he's talking to himself. Personally. I've had enough.

That's awesome! And it sort of proves my point doesn't it? Burying your head in the sand when confronted with your mistakes. Didn't I mention something about "Ostrich Factors"? Here's a good example.

[spaner]

Nope, Doc had it right the first time. Stay frosty, stay focused.
Inside the FAF, there is no fire. Then again, I'm doing 200kts. A consideration may have to be made for the situation. Like smoke in the cabin. Been there, 180 her and full power to the numbers, I may make a radio call, if I have the time. Ident 77, is best, forget the rest.

CID, you're obviously a smart guy, but you're becoming, what not very long ago, you called out as unimportant and disrupting behavior. Next you'll be pulling out the SP card.

The privilege of an expensive education. I know it's "wrong", I just don't care to correct my free flow of thoughts. Try tweets, and using IM. "Quotes", really?

Chill out pendejo, before you get lost in the "noise". That would be a shame.

[CID]

spaner, once again please. This time in English.

[2.5milefinal]

Whats the difference between this one and the one at yyu again? I am easily confused I guess.
I cant wait till the 337 pilot comes on here and tells us all his/her story. We can all forgive and forget and get them a new job...if needed.

[flyinthebug]

Flying the bug.


More avoidable than making sure there is gas in tank before going flying???? I see this as 100% avoidable but I'm just an ass!

Carry on

My accident was 100% avoidable/preventable. I have never once not taken FULL responsibility for my actions. I am as guilty of "stupidity" as this pilot in the 337. I hope you feel better berating people for things we know we screwed up.

My comment was based solely on the fact that you can look out the window of a 337 and SEE the gear. I couldn't see down into my tanks...and took the word of people I should have been able to trust. See, now you have me trying to justify my mistake.

Regardless of the links in the chain that led up to my crash, "I" am fully responsible for my mistake.

CID... You have become a cyber bully and most of us are getting tired of it and you.Did I use quotations properly in the previous sentence? Maybe you need a break from AvCanada for a while? You used to post a lot of positive advice and direction...and now all you seem to want to do is fight with everyone, while ramming your personal positions down everyones throats. You have a lot to offer this board when you get over whatever is making you so angry lately?

Fly safe all.

[lost in the north]

I find Doc and flyinthebug trying to force their positions down on everyone as well.....its not only CID

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Doc and FTB are pilots with a fair bit of experience.

I tend to listen to their opinions on the subject of flying.

[PilotDAR]

I tend to listen to their opinions on the subject of flying

Yeah, I would too, if I could hear over the noise of the frequent belittling.

[All Sides]

I find Doc and flyinthebug trying to force their positions down on everyone as well.....its not only CID

I don't think you and CID are in the minority here. I am sure I am on his ignore list, it kind of gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling all over

All accidents are a chain of events, it's not just as simple of forgetting to put down your gear. "By the grace of god go I", they are good words to live by.

[pelmet]

Flying the bug.


More avoidable than making sure there is gas in tank before going flying???? I see this as 100% avoidable but I'm just an ass!

Carry on

I couldn't see down into my tanks...and took the word of people I should have been able to trust. See, now you have me trying to justify my mistake.

Regardless of the links in the chain that led up to my crash, "I" am fully responsible for my mistake.

Pretty much only flew the 337 with the long range tanks. It has only two tanks(I just lied, there are four in each wing all interconnected to act like one....or so I was told) and the filler ports are far out on the wings. So guess what...you can't really reliably dip them after a certain point and being so far out on the wing, how reliable is dipping anyways with a slight incline in the ground. So how do you know your fuel level if it is down a bit? Use the fuel gauges, but on the most recently operated machine one guage was unreliable despite expensive efforts to fix it(hint...don't get regular AME's to do electrical work). So what to do. I just made sure I had enough fuel by filling it up enough to be able to visually check it. But, I may have been overweight a bit on some flights(where runway length was not an issue).

Of course some might cry out about regs and safety and all this is a consideration but if you know your airplane to be in balance, which is important, what is more likely to happen? Run out of gas or have an engine failure at a critical moment. How many engine failures happen to us and how much time do we spend in a critical moment. The chances of that are almost nil.

I don't know the length of your departure runway for the accident flight but if it was reasonably along with obstacles and other weight considerations, it might be prudent to top her off or at least put enough fuel in to make 1000% sure you have enough. You usually can fly when slightly overweight but you won't get far on empty tanks.

Flame away.

[Doc]

I find Doc and flyinthebug trying to force their positions down on everyone as well.....its not only CID

I don't think you and CID are in the minority here. I am sure I am on his ignore list, it kind of gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling all over

All accidents are a chain of events, it's not just as simple of forgetting to put down your gear. "By the grace of god go I", they are good words to live by.

If you believe neglecting to lower your gear is a result of a "chain of events....", do us a favour and get into some other line of work.

[AuxBatOn]

So, Doc,

Oldncold has to get out of aviation, despite you trying to hook him up with another job?

Yes, he described a chain of event that lead to a gear up landing.

[All Sides]

I find Doc and flyinthebug trying to force their positions down on everyone as well.....its not only CID

I don't think you and CID are in the minority here. I am sure I am on his ignore list, it kind of gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling all over

All accidents are a chain of events, it's not just as simple of forgetting to put down your gear. "By the grace of god go I", they are good words to live by.

If you believe neglecting to lower your gear is a result of a "chain of events....", do us a favour and get into some other line of work.

Stuff it Doc. I have been flying for 34 years and have thousands of hours, and no accidents. I am just not as arrogant about as you and a few others on here. It's jerks like you that have a lot of non aviation people thinking that pilots are arrogant jerks,
he rest of us try convince them otherwise. Some people defend you on here saying you actually are a great guy, we just misjudge you. So why are you such a jerk here? Because you are anonymous?

[CFR]

I find Doc and flyinthebug trying to force their positions down on everyone as well.....its not only CID

I don't think you and CID are in the minority here. I am sure I am on his ignore list, it kind of gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling all over

All accidents are a chain of events, it's not just as simple of forgetting to put down your gear. "By the grace of god go I", they are good words to live by.

If you believe neglecting to lower your gear is a result of a "chain of events....", do us a favour and get into some other line of work.

I believe every accident is caused by a chain of events. Failure to identify all mitigating factors accelerates the time between failures.