Waterbomber formation take-off/landings?
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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flynfiddle
- Rank 3
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:29 am
- Location: YZF
Waterbomber formation take-off/landings?
Maybe one of you 215 drivers can answer this question ... is it really necessary and/or safe to take-off/land in formation? Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not knocking it, personally I think it looks and sounds pretty cool but I can't help but wonder what would happen should the lead aircraft abort suddenly. Maybe I just have not paid close enough attention to notice the spacing.
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Driving Rain
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:10 pm
- Location: At a Tanker Base near you.
- Contact:
Re: Waterbomber formation take-off/landings?
So when you say formation, you must mean one behind the other. I've wondered about that myself from time to time.flynfiddle wrote:Maybe one of you 215 drivers can answer this question ... is it really necessary and/or safe to take-off/land in FORMATION? Don't get me wrong folks, I'm not knocking it, personally I think it looks and sounds pretty cool but I can't help but wonder what would happen should the lead aircraft abort suddenly. Maybe I just have not paid close enough attention to notice the spacing.
The tankers can easily steer to port or starboard while scooping if the need arises. The 215's throw off very big powerful and dirty wing vortices compared to the 415. I really hated following the 215s the 415s end plates and much slower turning props really cut down on the wake.
Close trail is best. Not for scooping but for working the fire. If all skimmers come in together it is less disruptive to the retardent/helicopter action ie. you can work more a/c in less time. Also, a lead-in will only be required for the first tanker in line and the rest can get instructions relative to the drop prior to theirs ie "tanker 69 tag on and extend to 666s drop". Easy.
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scotothedoublet
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Scotothedoublet, it all depends on the conditions. I would say you are to close when you have to turn your windshield wipers on because the spray from the aircraft scooping in front of you is obscuring your vision. Of course this works great for cleaning a bug infested windscreen.
When dropping you are probably to close if your aircraft comes out of the bombing run covered in white foam from the drop in front of you and you also need your wipers to clean the foam off the windscreen!!
When dropping you are probably to close if your aircraft comes out of the bombing run covered in white foam from the drop in front of you and you also need your wipers to clean the foam off the windscreen!!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
Close trail would be close enough to have a tanker drop, get his assesment and still have the following tanker time to make corrections. ie. "tanker 333 half long, 334 tag on and extend shift right". Last second crrections can be sketchy over the fire and in the smoke if one is to close.
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scotothedoublet
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These variables are the reason the various companies hire experienced handlers with a good variety in their background. Spacing depends on vis., traffic, tactics(how they want the fire fought), distance to water source, terrain, birdogs experience and a gazzilion other little things. If you want to slide retardent machines in between water drops then that will also factor into spacing ie. tighter to get eveyone in and out quickly or looser to slip a long-term machine in between.
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scotothedoublet
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When the ducks take-off in formation they are usually staggered, and it's usually on a runway that is wide enough to accomodate two side by side. Each treat it as if they have their own narrow runway, if you have to reject you try to keep on your own side. If unable... well, shit happens.
Trust me, you don't want the ex-wives or Transport hounding you! 
For your viewing pleasure, here's an email about that picture:
----
From: Andrew Boyd <acboyd@gmail.com>
Date: Jun 28, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: What I did on my summer vacation ...
... or at least over the weekend. This email is quite small (no attachments)
but you can click on the pictures that you want to download them from
our website. They're each about 1/2 a megabyte which will take about
3 minutes to download each photo over a dial-up line.
Got my pilot's licence back Friday, so we flew IFR down to Ozark,
Alabama to pick up the 4th Pitts S-2B, which has the amusing registration
of N666VB and a serial number ending in 13 (!)
We were in Ozark at 11:30am local time. Here's a picture of us in front
of the 421 at Ozark.
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/4skins.jpg
Once of our team members, who shall remain nameless to conceal
his creative genius and photographics skills, came up with a new
name for our formation team, now that we have 4 airplanes. We're
going to shave our heads and call ourselves the "Four Skins". Can
you just imagine the announcer at an airshow, saying to thousands
of people,
"Ladies and Gentlemen! At show center, you can see the
Four Skins peeling off to the right!"
On the way back, we were considerably lower and slower
than on the way down. It was kind of hazy - the 421 did the
nav and radio work, and the Pitts tagged along like this:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/421form.jpg
You might recall that Bob likes a cigarette every once
in a while. You can only imagine his childlike delight
at discovering the piss tube in the 421. Because the
cabin is pressurized, you have to push the lever to
let it flow out the tube. Here's a picture of Bob using
the piss tube for his nefarious purposes.
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/bob.jpg
Norm says he still has nightmares resulting from
seeing Bob put his mouth on the piss tube. More
therapy is obviously required, as I have been
telling him for quite some time, actually.
Andrew and Bob were in the front of the 421 for the
trip, which was sort of a Laurel and Hardy act most
of the time. Here they are, on a hot final approach
into Lexington, Kentucky:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/cockpit421.jpg
Note the rate of descent is 1000 fpm, and the power
is down to 16 inches from our nominal 21. We use
blue line (125 mph) on mid-final, slowing to 110 mph
over the numbers. Bob got a great landing at Bluegrass
airport.
As you can imagine, it was quite a struggle trying
to get Tim to leave Bluegrass. You'd thought
he'd died and gone to heaven, especially when he
discovered that our hotel (a Hilton - I was amazed
they let people like us stay there) was hosting a
women's tennis player's convention. There were
postively _acres_ of tanned female skin on display.
We did formation takeoffs and landings with the 421
and the Pitts, which was probably a novel sight
for most people. The tower in London even said
over the freq for everyone to "watch this" as we
touched down. In tranquil retrospect, one might
ponder exactly what he was alerting everyone to
watch for.
Formation takeoff was easy - side by side, and the
Pitts was in the air at 10 feet when the 421 was
still on the ground at 110 mph. A little weird, but
fun and easy.
The formation landing was a bit tricky (wake turbulence
from the 421 in front gave the Pitts in trail a wild ride) until
we figured out to touch down side by side on wide runways.
With a narrrow runway (ie uncontrolled airport) the Pitts just
peeled off on downwind and landed first, and the 421 flew a
normal, big pattern.
Did I mention that I was in the right seat of the 421,
doing the radios and nav? We got a bit off course at
one point:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/cntower.jpg
We didn't recognize any landmarks, so we just kept
on trucking. Faye Garner would be proud
Here's another cute shot of the Pitts out the window
of the 421, framing it nicely:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/window.jpg
Now, it wasn't just the navigator in the 421 who
got confused and disoriented. Sometimes the
guy in the Pitts wasn't even sure which way
was up:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/666inv421.jpg
And that's all I know about that.
--
aboyd ATPL http://www.pittspecials.com/images/takeoff.jpg
For your viewing pleasure, here's an email about that picture:
----
From: Andrew Boyd <acboyd@gmail.com>
Date: Jun 28, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: What I did on my summer vacation ...
... or at least over the weekend. This email is quite small (no attachments)
but you can click on the pictures that you want to download them from
our website. They're each about 1/2 a megabyte which will take about
3 minutes to download each photo over a dial-up line.
Got my pilot's licence back Friday, so we flew IFR down to Ozark,
Alabama to pick up the 4th Pitts S-2B, which has the amusing registration
of N666VB and a serial number ending in 13 (!)
We were in Ozark at 11:30am local time. Here's a picture of us in front
of the 421 at Ozark.
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/4skins.jpg
Once of our team members, who shall remain nameless to conceal
his creative genius and photographics skills, came up with a new
name for our formation team, now that we have 4 airplanes. We're
going to shave our heads and call ourselves the "Four Skins". Can
you just imagine the announcer at an airshow, saying to thousands
of people,
"Ladies and Gentlemen! At show center, you can see the
Four Skins peeling off to the right!"
On the way back, we were considerably lower and slower
than on the way down. It was kind of hazy - the 421 did the
nav and radio work, and the Pitts tagged along like this:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/421form.jpg
You might recall that Bob likes a cigarette every once
in a while. You can only imagine his childlike delight
at discovering the piss tube in the 421. Because the
cabin is pressurized, you have to push the lever to
let it flow out the tube. Here's a picture of Bob using
the piss tube for his nefarious purposes.
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/bob.jpg
Norm says he still has nightmares resulting from
seeing Bob put his mouth on the piss tube. More
therapy is obviously required, as I have been
telling him for quite some time, actually.
Andrew and Bob were in the front of the 421 for the
trip, which was sort of a Laurel and Hardy act most
of the time. Here they are, on a hot final approach
into Lexington, Kentucky:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/cockpit421.jpg
Note the rate of descent is 1000 fpm, and the power
is down to 16 inches from our nominal 21. We use
blue line (125 mph) on mid-final, slowing to 110 mph
over the numbers. Bob got a great landing at Bluegrass
airport.
As you can imagine, it was quite a struggle trying
to get Tim to leave Bluegrass. You'd thought
he'd died and gone to heaven, especially when he
discovered that our hotel (a Hilton - I was amazed
they let people like us stay there) was hosting a
women's tennis player's convention. There were
postively _acres_ of tanned female skin on display.
We did formation takeoffs and landings with the 421
and the Pitts, which was probably a novel sight
for most people. The tower in London even said
over the freq for everyone to "watch this" as we
touched down. In tranquil retrospect, one might
ponder exactly what he was alerting everyone to
watch for.
Formation takeoff was easy - side by side, and the
Pitts was in the air at 10 feet when the 421 was
still on the ground at 110 mph. A little weird, but
fun and easy.
The formation landing was a bit tricky (wake turbulence
from the 421 in front gave the Pitts in trail a wild ride) until
we figured out to touch down side by side on wide runways.
With a narrrow runway (ie uncontrolled airport) the Pitts just
peeled off on downwind and landed first, and the 421 flew a
normal, big pattern.
Did I mention that I was in the right seat of the 421,
doing the radios and nav? We got a bit off course at
one point:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/cntower.jpg
We didn't recognize any landmarks, so we just kept
on trucking. Faye Garner would be proud
Here's another cute shot of the Pitts out the window
of the 421, framing it nicely:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/window.jpg
Now, it wasn't just the navigator in the 421 who
got confused and disoriented. Sometimes the
guy in the Pitts wasn't even sure which way
was up:
http://www.pittspecials.com/ozark/666inv421.jpg
And that's all I know about that.
--
aboyd ATPL http://www.pittspecials.com/images/takeoff.jpg
I loved the Pitts stuff - good photos!
I also think formation takeoffs in Ducks is moronic. Go ahead and shoot, but at least I'm consistent as I thought that was moronic when the pigboats did it in Slave Lake my first year doing that stuff, 1981 (sorry Cat, was that you?).
I'll fight back when someone shoots.
I also think formation takeoffs in Ducks is moronic. Go ahead and shoot, but at least I'm consistent as I thought that was moronic when the pigboats did it in Slave Lake my first year doing that stuff, 1981 (sorry Cat, was that you?).
I'll fight back when someone shoots.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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fougapilot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:49 am
Fougapilot: hey Dan, is that you? Good to see you at Gatineau. I was impressed by the "big wing" photos you sent.
Back to Jack: Me (#2) on the left, (Christina) Jack in the center, Tim (#1) on the right. If you scroll down, you can see the laundry on the ground around her feet.
Back to Jack: Me (#2) on the left, (Christina) Jack in the center, Tim (#1) on the right. If you scroll down, you can see the laundry on the ground around her feet.
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Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
-
Jaques Strappe
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1847
- Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:34 pm
- Location: YYZ
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fougapilot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:49 am
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fougapilot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:49 am
All right, I give up. If you want to see the pics, just clic...
http://www.geocities.com/fougapilot/2shiptakeoff.html
http://www.geocities.com/fougapilot/2shiploop.html
