Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

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+RA
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by +RA »

I agree with Rockie. Recent events have indicated that the low salaries we saw in the US regional market five years ago are no longer sustainable. I have to wonder how much of a cost advantage, if any, the US regionals will be able to provide in relation to their Canadian counterparts in the coming years, especially considering the low wages we are now seeing in the Canadian regional market.

Nirvana, I know a few ER physicians who work fourteen eight-hour shifts per month, with a take home salary of over three hundred thousand dollars per year. WIth an undergraduate degree consisting of four years, followed by four years of medical school and then three to five years of residency, a person could become an attending ER physician by the age of 29, holding the aforementioned salary and schedule. You'd have a difficult time finding an AC pilot with the salary and schedule you had quoted under the age of fifty. Furthermore, the reason pilots have duty days is to ensure safety on each and every flight. If the same numbers of people were killed per year in pilot-error related crashes, as there were due to iantrogenic causes, the aviation industry would be virtually nonexistent. As well, note how the medical industry is now trying to implement many of safety systems aviation has been using for decades. One of these systems is a set duty day, which ensures a rested physician who is less likely to make errors in judgement.
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Fanblade
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Fanblade »

Again. The US regional thing is almost guaranteed to be a red Herring. It is mentioned only to encourage the Canadian bidders even lower.

This CPA carrier would have to abide by the Air Canada Partisipatioin act. IOW provide French on many routes.

It is also true US regional wages are likely bouncing off the floor.

However, although it is true Canadian Regional wages are better than the US, I would suggest that the reason they are better is simply because of the high bar the AC regionals have set. Once that bar is reduced to a new lower normal the rest will respond in kind as they compete with each other.

In fact that is exactly what we are watching right now. First SR. Then Encore. Now..... These CEO's will keep one downing each other until the market doesn't provide applicants.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nirvana
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Nirvana »

Mig29 wrote:
Nirvana wrote:So, Air Canada should pay more for pilots and pay the (Canadian) regionals more and then what? Bankrupty again? Every aspect of Air Canada and all unions...yes, all unions have had to give to make the company a going concern going forward. It's straight up competition and thats how the business world works. Stay focused on the big picture of what Air Canada wants to do....just read the Investor day presentation, look at what's happened in Europe, US airline markets. It is what it is. Wanna be part of a College, quit the airline business and go to med school or law school. Oh yeah, don't forget the long days and long hours these professions put in! They don't have duty days.
I wonder if you are a professional pilot or just here to irritate people. Maybe if you got paid 20k/year your opinion would change dramatically??

I am not here to irritate anybody. I am entitled to my opinion and lets leave it at that. I have worked in this industry for many years and I think I may have learned a thing or two to along the way. You can disagree all you want and thats fine. Please, keep the insults to yourself.
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Last edited by Nirvana on Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nirvana
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Nirvana »

Mach1 wrote:
Inverted2 wrote:Of course having the lowest bidder and least paid pilots looks good on paper for the CEO's but remember you get what you pay for:
Image
I'm quite sure the CEO and the Board all got their bonuses that year, just like nothing ever happened.
Nirvana wrote: Yes they do.....Pilots at Air Canada and Jazz, Georgian, Sky Regional also make more(way more) than 17K....I don't mind the arguement, but please compare apples to apples. Show me a GP or Lawyer that make's $250,000 for working 9 days a month at 15hrs a day....sorry, don't buy it. Based on a widebody at AC.....current rates. Plus, there is nobody making 17K or even less than that at the regionals in this country...post the facts....not what you think it is. At the professional level, pilots are very well compensated for what they do. As far as professional level, I make reference to 2nd even 3rd tier up to mainline. They may have taken pay cuts as has every one else, but its a damn good paying job for the hours worked. Cry me a river!
I'm going to comment on the two bold comments, and the one bold/italicized comment.

1. When you say 9 days and 15 hours a day, are you taking into account that it isn't 9 days and 15 hours. That's just the accounting talking. In reality, when on the road it is 24 hours a day for the entire time you are gone because, unlike the person who works in an office and can come home and fix/deal with/work on any issues at home, the flight crew is gone. Unable to address any issues at home until their return.

2. Pay cuts like everyone else... except the executives of every corporation in North America. Their wages keep climbing at well beyond inflationary rates. Are they really performing so much better than past executives? The answer is no.

3. Spoken/written like an office worker who has never had to work on the road nor dealt with shift work and multiple time zones. Full of disrespect and disdain for anyone's job but your own.
Lets agree to disgree. As far as your personal insult directed at me, shows how professiaonal you really are. You must be just a joy to fly with. Funny, because I take a different view then you...I must be an office worker and or management. Sorry, wrong. I still stand by my opinion and its just that, my opinion.
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rockie »

Nirvana

Working 9 days a month at 15 hours a day for $250,000 betrays what you don't do for a living. That's a canard corporate executives fling out to the public making it appear all pilots make that when you clearly know how few do and how many years they have to put in before they come anywhere close to that.

I find the corporate types have no respect for what pilots do until that dark and dirty night with lots of turbulence/windshear/icy runway etc. Then they're scared shitless and would sell their soul if only that crew up front saves their ass. How much would they be worth then?
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TheStig
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by TheStig »

Nirvana wrote: I am not here to irritate anybody. I am entitled to my opinion and lets leave it at that. I have worked in this industry for many years and I think I may have learned a thing or two to along the way. You can disagree all you want and thats fine. Please, keep the insults to yourself.
Nirvana,

I'm not sure what you've read that you've found to be insulting, could you specify?

You're right the $17,000/Year figure is low for Canadian Tier 1 & 2 carriers, but not unrealistic for the US Tier 2, and that is (what I believe the original poster was implying) the direction that pilot wages appear to be headed in Canada.

I did a quick search and scan through your contributions to avcanada and I gather that you're an Air Canada dispatcher? Do you not feel that you could add more to the conversation than trying to start disputes between employee groups? I fully agree dispatchers deserve to earn a healthy paycheque and I've never heard a pilot mention anything about them being overpaid, in fact most feel that the three employee groups with licenses (Pilot, Engineers, and Dispatchers) are all underpaid at AC. ACPA and the pilot group as a whole have gone to great lengths to ensure the viability of the airline in the last 10 years.

As you say you've worked many years in the industry so you should know better than to state that most pilots only work 9-10 days a months for $250,000/Year. When you look at the thousands of pilots with Commercial Licenses in this country, very few pilots' will every be fortunate enough to earn over $200,000/Year at any point in their career, those that do are at the top of the pyramid and generally consider themselves to be very fortunate to be there. However, as another poster alluded to earlier, they've earned it. Getting to Air Canada generally takes a decade of flying working for low wages right after making a HUGE investment in education and training. In fact if you averaged the career earnings of any AC pilot for their first 25 years flying professionally I would have no doubt that the figure would be less than $100,000/year. So you'll have to excuse us pilots for being concerned about the downward pressure on our pay.
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Nirvana
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Nirvana »

TheStig wrote:
Nirvana wrote: I am not here to irritate anybody. I am entitled to my opinion and lets leave it at that. I have worked in this industry for many years and I think I may have learned a thing or two to along the way. You can disagree all you want and thats fine. Please, keep the insults to yourself.
Nirvana,

I'm not sure what you've read that you've found to be insulting, could you specify?

You're right the $17,000/Year figure is low for Canadian Tier 1 & 2 carriers, but not unrealistic for the US Tier 2, and that is (what I believe the original poster was implying) the direction that pilot wages appear to be headed in Canada.

I did a quick search and scan through your contributions to avcanada and I gather that you're an Air Canada dispatcher? Do you not feel that you could add more to the conversation than trying to start disputes between employee groups? I fully agree dispatchers deserve to earn a healthy paycheque and I've never heard a pilot mention anything about them being overpaid, in fact most feel that the three employee groups with licenses (Pilot, Engineers, and Dispatchers) are all underpaid at AC. ACPA and the pilot group as a whole have gone to great lengths to ensure the viability of the airline in the last 10 years.

As you say you've worked many years in the industry so you should know better than to state that most pilots only work 9-10 days a months for $250,000/Year. When you look at the thousands of pilots with Commercial Licenses in this country, very few pilots' will every be fortunate enough to earn over $200,000/Year at any point in their career, those that do are at the top of the pyramid and generally consider themselves to be very fortunate to be there. However, as another poster alluded to earlier, they've earned it. Getting to Air Canada generally takes a decade of flying working for low wages right after making a HUGE investment in education and training. In fact if you averaged the career earnings of any AC pilot for their first 25 years flying professionally I would have no doubt that the figure would be less than $100,000/year. So you'll have to excuse us pilots for being concerned about the downward pressure on our pay.
Not a dispatcher. Look, maybe I was playing devil's advocate. I think we can all agree that pay has been declining over the years. There are so many people working in this industry and working hard and getting terrible renumeration. Anyway, did not post to start a fight. Next topic please.
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Mach1
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Mach1 »

I agree, we will disagree on the subject. However, I had no idea calling someone an office worker was an insult. And yes, I am a joy to fly with.

Now, Cry me a river... a little insulting. Not a personal one, so I will stand by what I said about the disdain in a comment like that.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

Rockie wrote:There's just one problem with Air Canada's thinking, they're assuming there will be regional pilots in the states to take Canadian flying. All those guys forced to go to 65 because the robber barons stole their pensions are starting to retire. The aggregate age of the pilots flying for the majors in the USA is very high, and they're starting to leave the industry in huge numbers leaving the regionals holding the bag. The amount of people entering the industry has plummeted because who wants to make $17,000 a year after shelling out massive amounts for training? Now the Americans have implemented the 1500 hour rule because of Colgan.

This should be fun to watch...except for the smoking craters caused by airline management who think pilots are bus drivers and proper training and experience doesn't matter.
At some point we will reach a point where the corp that has control or access to skilled ATP qualified pilot labour will have the competitive advantage over airlines that do not. Have we reached that point yet? Probably not, but we are getting close. Just witness the difficulty that Encore is having filling seats with experienced pilots.

Jazz employs the second largest pilot force in Canada. As AC makes the future less and less secure for Jazz pilots they will move on to opportunities that offer more security and most will end up working for the competition (to AC). Now is the time for AC to consider whether maintaining that pool of experienced and qualified pilot labour leaves them with an advantage or not. Most recent actions would suggest not and everybody knows that a disenfranchised employee is the competition's greatest asset.

Proper strategic planning for AC should not be the next 2-3 years but instead the next decade. And perhaps more importantly, who will have the pilots available to meet their own corporate growth plans.
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MartinB
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by MartinB »

Rockie wrote: This should be fun to watch...except for the smoking craters caused by airline management who think pilots are bus drivers and proper training and experience doesn't matter.
Sorry but my dad is a greyhound driver and he makes 70k a year. A more appropriate thing to say would be the following: Airline management thinks pilots are school janitors or window cleaners.
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TrailerParkBoy
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by TrailerParkBoy »

I wonder if you are a professional pilot or just here to irritate people. Maybe if you got paid 20k/year your opinion would change dramatically??[/quote]


I am not here to irritate anybody. I am entitled to my opinion and lets leave it at that. I have worked in this industry for many years and I think I may have learned a thing or two to along the way. You can disagree all you want and thats fine. Please, keep the insults to yourself.[/quote]


Haha...Cry me a river! You should try to step out of your bubble!
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Rumors
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rumors »

rudder wrote:
Rockie wrote:There's just one problem with Air Canada's thinking, they're assuming there will be regional pilots in the states to take Canadian flying. All those guys forced to go to 65 because the robber barons stole their pensions are starting to retire. The aggregate age of the pilots flying for the majors in the USA is very high, and they're starting to leave the industry in huge numbers leaving the regionals holding the bag. The amount of people entering the industry has plummeted because who wants to make $17,000 a year after shelling out massive amounts for training? Now the Americans have implemented the 1500 hour rule because of Colgan.

This should be fun to watch...except for the smoking craters caused by airline management who think pilots are bus drivers and proper training and experience doesn't matter.
At some point we will reach a point where the corp that has control or access to skilled ATP qualified pilot labour will have the competitive advantage over airlines that do not. Have we reached that point yet? Probably not, but we are getting close. Just witness the difficulty that Encore is having filling seats with experienced pilots.

Jazz employs the second largest pilot force in Canada. As AC makes the future less and less secure for Jazz pilots they will move on to opportunities that offer more security and most will end up working for the competition (to AC). Now is the time for AC to consider whether maintaining that pool of experienced and qualified pilot labour leaves them with an advantage or not. Most recent actions would suggest not and everybody knows that a disenfranchised employee is the competition's greatest asset.

Proper strategic planning for AC should not be the next 2-3 years but instead the next decade. And perhaps more importantly, who will have the pilots available to meet their own corporate growth plans.
Rudder,

You seem to be pretty knowledgable.

If you were part of ACPA/ALPA leadrship(maybe you are) what would you do?

What would be your game plan?
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Skyblazer
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Skyblazer »

Can ENCORE submit a proposal


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

Rumors wrote:
Rudder,

You seem to be pretty knowledgable.

If you were part of ACPA/ALPA leadrship(maybe you are) what would you do?

What would be your game plan?
1. Start talking to each other

2. Start talking to the ultimate corporate decision maker.

3. Develop a strategic plan that creates better outcomes for all concerned (including the corporation)

4. Keep the membership informed and educate them as to why a tripartite solution is the best long term source of prosperity, opportunity, and job security.

5. Implement the plan and conquer the world :D


Imagine being the first CEO of a major airline that did not have to constantly accept less than optimal fleet deployment scenarios or diminished market flexibility due to scope of work restrictions and jurisdictional constraints. And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
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cpt.sam
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by cpt.sam »

Fanblade wrote:Again. The US regional thing is almost guaranteed to be a red Herring. It is mentioned only to encourage the Canadian bidders even lower.

This CPA carrier would have to abide by the Air Canada Partisipatioin act. IOW provide French on many routes.

It is also true US regional wages are likely bouncing off the floor.

However, although it is true Canadian Regional wages are better than the US, I would suggest that the reason they are better is simply because of the high bar the AC regionals have set. Once that bar is reduced to a new lower normal the rest will respond in kind as they compete with each other.

In fact that is exactly what we are watching right now. First SR. Then Encore. Now..... These CEO's will keep one downing each other until the market doesn't provide applicants.

I guess CEO's are on a reverse commision?
The more they take from Pilots, Cabin Crew, Rampies.....The higher their bonuses?
I almost had to change my drawers when I saw a report on airlines' bottom lines, and their respective CEO's salaries and bonus schedules!
I'll try to find it again, and post it!
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Rumors
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rumors »

rudder wrote:
Rumors wrote:
Rudder,

You seem to be pretty knowledgable.

If you were part of ACPA/ALPA leadrship(maybe you are) what would you do?

What would be your game plan?
1. Start talking to each other

2. Start talking to the ultimate corporate decision maker.

3. Develop a strategic plan that creates better outcomes for all concerned (including the corporation)

4. Keep the membership informed and educate them as to why a tripartite solution is the best long term source of prosperity, opportunity, and job security.

5. Implement the plan and conquer the world :D


Imagine being the first CEO of a major airline that did not have to constantly accept less than optimal fleet deployment scenarios or diminished market flexibility due to scope of work restrictions and jurisdictional constraints. And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
Do you really think in the world of Air Canada the ultimate decision maker would entertain something like this?

Do you really believe the scope rules fleet deployment restrictions on them(are there even that many now) mean that much more to them in where it would be proper to be onside with labor?

It looks like they're managing the situation pretty good from the ringside seats.

Divide and conquer.
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rudder
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by rudder »

Rumors wrote:
Do you really think in the world of Air Canada the ultimate decision maker would entertain something like this?

Do you really believe the scope rules fleet deployment restrictions on them(are there even that many now) mean that much more to them in where it would be proper to be onside with labor?

It looks like they're managing the situation pretty good from the ringside seats.

Divide and conquer.
AC is managing things pretty good within the constraints that still exist and as a result the best case scenario is an imperfect outcome.

Best example is that AC asks arbitrator for 319's at Rouge. Arbitrator gives it to them. Now AC realizes that is not cost effective and asks ACPA for permission to operate 320's at Rouge instead. This puts ACPA back in the driver's seat and in the corporation's case demonstrates the axiom "be careful what you wish for".

AC will continue pursuing the optimal solution but will never achieve it due to the commercial, industrial, and operational restrictions that populate the convoluted operation that AC is creating (multiple partners, paint jobs, operating certificates, etc). And this is all being done for one simple purpose - to get around organized labour.

Whomever can partner with labour will have a trump card that no other carrier has. WJ is part way there and relies on the fact that AC is so constrained. Imagine a world where AC is no longer constrained? That is WJ worst nightmare.
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Captain S itmagnet
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Captain S itmagnet »

Nirvana wrote:

Yes they do.....Pilots at Air Canada and Jazz, Georgian, Sky Regional also make more(way more) than 17K....I don't mind the arguement, but please compare apples to apples. Show me a GP or Lawyer that make's $250,000 for working 9 days a month at 15hrs a day....sorry, don't buy it. Based on a widebody at AC.....current rates. Plus, there is nobody making 17K or even less than that at the regionals in this country...post the facts....not what you think it is. At the professional level, pilots are very well compensated for what they do. As far as professional level, I make reference to 2nd even 3rd tier up to mainline. They may have taken pay cuts as has every one else, but its a damn good paying job for the hours worked. Cry me a river!

*******************************************

The myths and misperceptions continue to exist. An 80 or so credit month still equates to (at least) a 40-hour work week. There are valid arguments that it's even longer.
As far as paying less-than-poverty level wages to starry-eyed rookie pilots, you get exactly what you pay for. In Canada we should take pride in having a air transportation system with an exemplary safety record, particularly when you consider the vastness of the country. For bonus points add varying types of terrain, weather, and remoteness of much of the country and that makes the record even more impressive. Any bean-counter willing to consider chipping away at this is doing nothing more than rolling the dice that something horrific and graphic like the Colgan event does not happen. Now whatever you have supposedly "saved" in costs goes to legal/liability costs instead, and could very well spell the downfall of a carrier. Numerous examples exist of a notorious wreck bringing down a company. Not much of a saving in most of our eyes.
I would like to ask if those making the decision to go "lowest bidder" would be comfortable having their families travel on a flight operated by a crew with the (lack of) experience, training, rest, and decision-making capabilities that the Colgan flight cited had. But then they would find a way to quickly weasel out of an honest answer!
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Rockie
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by Rockie »

rudder wrote:And all of this could come from working with a motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot work force.
A motivated, proactive and enlightened pilot workforce doesn't just happen. It has to be created and nurtured by an enlightened management that values the people working for them.

Does that sound like Air Canada?
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MeAndMrPenguin
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Re: Air Canada outsourcing US Regional

Post by MeAndMrPenguin »

Let's put the Doctor comparison away. Doctors make top dollar the first day after residency. So, from age 26 or later it's good money. Career earnings are not close. Lawyers work their way up but on average make more than pilots over a career.
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