NDB's WHY??

[Doc]

The NDB is still widely used in Africa.

Unlike penicillin, a lot of stuff is widely used in Africa. AK47s etc., doesn't necessarily make it a good idea idea here?

[Taco Joe]

The NDB is still widely used in Africa.

Unlike penicillin, a lot of stuff is widely used in Africa. AK47s etc., doesn't necessarily make it a good idea idea here?

I dunno, an AK might help with the grouse hunt this year...

[Kabloona]

I grew up old school, transitioned to GPS and now have dual FMS. I still use the NDB all the time for situational awareness, heading correction in NDA and just general location to an airport. We might reach that RNAV goal of 100% coverage but until then leave that NDB intact.

[Edo]

Anyway, enough people use NDBs to set heading indicators in the north that it might be useful to keep them..

I don't fly in N Domestic airspace and have never done this. How do you?

It's a perfect melding of old and new technology.

At top of decent we pull up the page on our GPS that gives us a bearing to the NDB we have tuned up. Then we drive our compass heading in the appropriate direction until the RMI shows the correct bearing to the NDB. Voila! Windage factored in automatically.

You cannot do this with a VOR as the indication you have displayed is the radial you are on, not the bearing to the VOR.

If you have a very good C11 DG or some other INS unit you may be able to get away with just correcting for convergence. No NDB required.

Ye old astrocompass works very well but of course won't work unless the heavenly body you are working off of is visible. So no good in overhead OVC or BKN conditions.

Cheers

ETTW

Thanks.

[Prodriver]

I grew up new school, run w/ the GPS if you can!

[frozen solid]

OK, Justin Bieber.

If you want to approach flying as a discipline, making full use of the "new school" tricks requires an understanding of what came before. Times change; standards stay the same.

[Doc]

OK, Justin Bieber.

If you want to approach flying as a discipline, making full use of the "new school" tricks requires an understanding of what came before. Times change; standards stay the same.

Actually, you're kind of wrong. Some cling to the old ways. Believe me, the new ways ARE better. Navigating by ground based systems are not only unnecessarily complicated, inefficient and more time consuming, it also burns more fuel.
Is easier necessarily a bad thing? I can shoot an NDB approach at least as well as some of you. I dare say better than some of you. But why the Sam Hell should I?
It seems strange, that in order to use a system capable of finding a Coke can in the forest, it must be backed up by a system incapable of finding that forest?

Several years back, I met an old sailor in Halifax. He was a Brit who had just single handed his lovely old wooden ketch from England. I asked him if, being a traditional type of sailor, he navigated with a sextant and by the stars. He said "I'm traditional sunny, I ain't stupid! I have three GPS units on board!" He also had sat phone, ham radio.....but aviation in Canada must remain in the mud hole of the past because TC doesn't trust anything since the Jurassic!

[Doc]

At top of decent we pull up the page on our GPS that gives us a bearing to the NDB we have tuned up. Then we drive our compass heading in the appropriate direction until the RMI shows the correct bearing to the NDB. Voila! Windage factored in automatically.

You cannot do this with a VOR as the indication you have displayed is the radial you are on, not the bearing to the VOR.

ETTW

Sure you can. You just need an RMI that points to the VOR. Voila

[shimmydampner]

No one is suggesting that "new school" navaids go unused or ignored, Doc. Map reading is more difficult and less efficient than being a dumb GPS monkey but it's still an important basic skill of navigation, despite being ancient technology. Feel free to toss your maps out the window along with your ADF, but I'd like to keep both. You may not use them in your corner of the world but I do in mine.

[frozen solid]

OK, Justin Bieber.

If you want to approach flying as a discipline, making full use of the "new school" tricks requires an understanding of what came before. Times change; standards stay the same.

Actually, you're kind of wrong. Some cling to the old ways. Believe me, the new ways ARE better. Navigating by ground based systems are not only unnecessarily complicated, inefficient and more time consuming, it also burns more fuel.
Is easier necessarily a bad thing? I can shoot an NDB approach at least as well as some of you. I dare say better than some of you. But why the Sam Hell should I?
It seems strange, that in order to use a system capable of finding a Coke can in the forest, it must be backed up by a system incapable of finding that forest?

Several years back, I met an old sailor in Halifax. He was a Brit who had just single handed his lovely old wooden ketch from England. I asked him if, being a traditional type of sailor, he navigated with a sextant and by the stars. He said "I'm traditional sunny, I ain't stupid! I have three GPS units on board!" He also had sat phone, ham radio.....but aviation in Canada must remain in the mud hole of the past because TC doesn't trust anything since the Jurassic!

Having a different point of view than you doesn't make me wrong. Take as an example the nifty little Sandel digital RMIs you can get. You can bring up a virtual "needle" that points at the GPS waypoint you've selected. When that waypoint happens to be the threshold of a strip you've made for yourself and marked out with garbage bags in a country that's a uniform white from the east coast to the west coast, and you're trying to approach it on "runway" heading on an overcast day in blowing snow, that instrument provides an excellent source of situational awareness, giving you your bearing to the waypoint superimposed over your heading right in front of your face. The skills you need to maintain a constant track on a given bearing are the same as the one you use for NDB navigation. Much better than trying to maintain your "track" and "bearing" numbers on the screen of a GPS that's probably located somewhere other than your primary instrument panel, and MUCH better than trying to steer a little picture of an aeroplane down a pink line on said screen. If they taught techniques like this using GPS in schools, I guess it wouldn't matter if they scrapped NDBs, but I have yet to see anyone other than folks who know how to use NDBs who would know what the hell I am talking about here. I use GPS extensively, but my knowledge of older navigation techniques enhances my use of the GPS.

Doc, I challenge you to take one of your little co-pilots who grew up only relying on GPS and really try to put his/her situational awareness to the test. You tell me if their ability to navigate, plan ahead and really know where the hell they are matches up with your own in any way at all. Then tell me that everything you learned about navigation before the GPS was invented isn't worth a damn.

By the way I am teaching myself celestial navigation. Besides being able to set my D.G. accurately in the N.D.A, I can't really see it helping me much in the air. It is damned interesting though, and unlike GPS, it will keep working until the end of time, without batteries.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Having a different point of view than you doesn't make me wrong. Take as an example the nifty little Sandel digital RMIs you can get. You can bring up a virtual "needle" that points at the GPS waypoint you've selected. When that waypoint happens to be the threshold of a strip you've made for yourself and marked out with garbage bags in a country that's a uniform white from the east coast to the west coast, and you're trying to approach it on "runway" heading on an overcast day in blowing snow, that instrument provides an excellent source of situational awareness, giving you your bearing to the waypoint superimposed over your heading right in front of your face. The skills you need to maintain a constant track on a given bearing are the same as the one you use for NDB navigation. navigation before the GPS was invented isn't worth a damn.

Or you can get do the same thing with more accuracy by OBSing the inbound track, selecting GPS for the HSI then reducing the scale to .3 After that drive the white airplane over to the magenta line and wait for the HSI needle to come in. Easy

I did a lot of IFR pre GPS and I am pretty good chasing the needle when I do IFR training but for a real world approach I know what I am paying attention to. You want to wear the hair shirt fill your boots, I will not say your are wrong I just want to use the easiest best way to get to my destination.

[ettw]

At top of decent we pull up the page on our GPS that gives us a bearing to the NDB we have tuned up. Then we drive our compass heading in the appropriate direction until the RMI shows the correct bearing to the NDB. Voila! Windage factored in automatically.

You cannot do this with a VOR as the indication you have displayed is the radial you are on, not the bearing to the VOR.

ETTW

Sure you can. You just need an RMI that points to the VOR. Voila

My RMIs when selected to NAV vs ADF, simply display the radial you're on, not a bearing to the VOR. Maybe your RMIs are different.

Cheers

ETTW

[CD]

Hmmmm... Similar discussion from 2005:

AvCanada: Glass

[Doc]

Frozen Solid, perhaps "wrong" was not the correct word.
However, if you've made this strip yourself, marked it with green garbage bags, chances are pretty good there is no NDB to use for said approach?

[Heliian]

Why?? Redundancy, for now.

Ever had the GPS crap out on you? It's rare, but when it does, a backup system like map reading and ground based nav systems could be a real life-saver.

I sat and watched a CPL-H fritz around with a gps trying to find out how far away from an aerodrome we were transiting, the whole time the DME in the panel was indicating our distance but the pilot didn't know how to even use it. The controller kept asking him our range to avoid other traffic, by the time he figured it out, we were through the zone. No collision that time but I completely lost respect for the whole training system which produced these pilots that knew nothing about navaids expcept gps.

[frozen solid]

Frozen Solid, perhaps "wrong" was not the correct word.
However, if you've made this strip yourself, marked it with green garbage bags, chances are pretty good there is no NDB to use for said approach?

I'm not communicating properly. My plane at work has an RMI that will point at a GPS waypoint if selected. In this way you can use the GPS to make a fake "NDB" at any spot you care to create. I find it very useful and intuitive, among all the "track bar" and numeric displays in the cockpit, to have a needle that simply points at the spot you want to go. I'm not talking about actually using a real NDB, but I'm commenting on the usefulness of being able to use an ADF-like instrument. They don't teach that in any GPS training course I've ever seen, and if they get rid of ground based equipment, they probably won't teach it in initial instrument school either.

Also I'm not advocating creating your own instrument approaches. Just sometimes hard to find stuff, even on nice days, when it's very snowy out.

I hate to admit this here perhaps, but sometimes even after all these years, if I'm at a busy airport and center has given me the long way 'round or maybe switched up the approach due to traffic, a quick glance at the ADF that is pointing right AT the airport or the final approach fix is reassuring when you've been doing a lot of turning without being able to see out the window.

P.S, The difference between the RMI when you're using it with a VOR is that with an NDB if your DG is set wrong, you'll still be able to track direct to the station by turning so the needle is straight up. With a VOR if your DG is off for whatever reason, it will just point to the radial you're on anyway, not the physical direction of the station. If your DG is set right, no problem. If it's set wrong, they are not the same at all. Most of the time it's not a big difference, but if you're in a position to be doubting your DG in the first place, it could be kind of an important one.

My point here isn't really anti-this or pro-that. I use the GPS extensively and it's really been a tremendous safety advantage. But I feel that the technology has had two effects. One is that it has made conscientious pilots even better and more effective at doing their jobs by enhancing the skills they already possess. The second is that it has given non-conscientious pilots the crutch they need to make their way around most of the time without hitting anything or bothering to learn much. I don't think I have a great deal of respect for those in the second category, and I'm quite sure you don't either, Doc.

[NeverBlue]

My RMIs when selected to NAV vs ADF, simply display the radial you're on, not a bearing to the VOR.

Radial vs Bearing is just the other end of the RMI pointer isn't it??

You just need an RMI that points to the VOR. Voila

if you have that then surely and ADF is installed (in Canada) and why not use it?

[ODA]

At top of decent we pull up the page on our GPS that gives us a bearing to the NDB we have tuned up. Then we drive our compass heading in the appropriate direction until the RMI shows the correct bearing to the NDB. Voila! Windage factored in automatically.

You cannot do this with a VOR as the indication you have displayed is the radial you are on, not the bearing to the VOR.

ETTW

Sure you can. You just need an RMI that points to the VOR. Voila

My RMIs when selected to NAV vs ADF, simply display the radial you're on, not a bearing to the VOR. Maybe your RMIs are different.

Cheers

ETTW

Mine too. I can only think of like 5 VOR's in the NDA as well.

[NeverBlue]

Again...
Radial vs Bearing is just the other end of the RMI pointer isn't it??

Am I missing something?

[photofly]

Some subtle differences occur like VOR alignment and differences in magnetic variation from where the VOR is to where the aircraft is.

The usual example is using a distant VOR in NDA while the aircraft is in southern airspace; the VOR is aligned on a true heading so the radial is True, while the RMI points to the same number magnetic.

You might consider those to be corner cases though.

[ahramin]

At top of decent we pull up the page on our GPS that gives us a bearing to the NDB we have tuned up. Then we drive our compass heading in the appropriate direction until the RMI shows the correct bearing to the NDB. Voila! Windage factored in automatically.

You cannot do this with a VOR as the indication you have displayed is the radial you are on, not the bearing to the VOR.

ETTW

Sure you can. You just need an RMI that points to the VOR. Voila

Uh Doc, you might want to have another look at the manual for that RMI.

[NeverBlue]

Photofly, I understand the magnetic variation point...but

You cannot do this with a VOR as the indication you have displayed is the radial you are on, not the bearing to the VOR.

If you have a From flag on your CDI or HSI indicator and the deviation bar is centered you are on the true radial "From" the VOR.
If you have a To flag on your CDI or HSI indicator and the deviation bar is centered you are on the true bearing "To" the VOR.
The RMI pointer in VOR mode points to the VOR and the magnetic bearing that you are on.
The other end of the RMI pointer indicates the magnetic Radial from the VOR that you are on.

every Radial corresponds with a Bearing...that I believe is basic navigation.

I'm no pilot but is it a fact that this is not taught in ground school?

[ettw]

The issue is convergence.

If my GPS gives me a bearing of 270T to the RB NDB, then convergence is taken into account BUT if we use the VOR and we are say 10 deg of longitude east, the bearing the GPS figures is not the same as the radial that my RMI will display. Yes you can correct for convergence but that is the reason we use NDBs vs VORs.

Cheers

ETTW

Edit 'cause I mixed up the lat and the long....sorry if that confused anyone.

[photofly]

That's a "curvature of the earth" issue, because the meridians lie less and less parallel as you move north?

[ettw]

Yes.