Mountains and Winds

[cyndy]

So, I attempted to cross the mountains yesterday flying direct over the top from Springbank to Fairmont. Once I was in the mountains, despite flying on the right and bright side to get more lift, the wind and down drafts were so strong I was having a hard time flying straight and level. So I turned around, came out, met up with the transcanada and started following the highway. I got to BANFF and again, the winds became so strong I had a hard time controlling the plane. This time however I could see weather coming in from the mountains. As much as I was looking forward to a burger and a soak in the hot springs at Fairmont, I decided to turn around and bail on the trip. Once I returned to YBW, the winds were gusting 20 and the winds had changed drastically from when I had taken off (calm). So my question is this: when flying across the rocks, is it typical to have a hard time controlling a 172 because of the winds? I'm trying to gage how much of my difficulty was due to actual wx and how much was due to nerves of making my first attempt to cross the rocks?

[Tail-Chaser]

Did you check the winds aloft? Anything over maybe 20kts flowing within 30ish degrees to being perpendicular to the ranges and you can expect some pretty decent turbulence.

[frozen solid]

Hard to say. You can certainly get some wonky winds in the mountains, and a 172 is a pretty light plane. If it was your first try, it's difficult for anyone else to say whether you were being more cautious than you really needed to be, but I'll tell you you did the right thing turning around if you felt nervous. I call that feeling my "Spidey Sense" and I try to obey it every time. I have between 10 and 15 thousand hours in the air and something like this happened to me a couple of years ago. I found myself in some very choppy turbulence and didn't particularly like how things were feeling, and I went back, even though the visibility was OK. There was some funny-looking weather ahead and I had a feeling I wouldn't like it. I did not feel as though I had to go out of my way to explain myself to anyone or speculate as to the cause of the turbulence or how safe it would have been to press on. I just did the flight the next day.

It's OK to put yourself in situations where you feel a little nervous, to expand your abilities. But if it just makes you feel better to stop, then stop. Don't over-analyze. If you continue to feel nervous in the mountains, even on nice days, then bring a pilot friend the first couple of times. It's more fun that way anyway.

[Beefitarian]

Yesterday? How do I word this gently? Where did you get your weather briefing? It has been windy this week around Calgary. I can't remember which day, Wednesday or Thursday maybe. It would have been difficult to taxi a 172.

When the weather is calm the mountain are majestic. When it gets windy they are mechanical turbulence generators. The bright side might be where a raging down draft is because of that.

I'm a pretty big chicken but.. I probably would avoid mountains for a couple of months until calm winter sets in then be very over cautious about flying there.

Have you taken a mountain ground school course or check ride lately?

[cyndy]

The winds were calm when I left and the winds looked good all through the region, but I was looking at wx at checkpoints, destination, and other airports that I might consider diverting to. My copilot did all the other flight planning, and I didn't even think to ask about the winds aloft, I had assumed that they had been checked (the right arm didn't speak to the left, and I know the adage re: assuming...so I should've known better in hindsight). The last time I went Mountain Flying was 3 years ago with an instructor out at Babin Air. My copilot however did a recent check ride, but even my copilot agreed it was better to turn around after taking the controls and seeing what I was trying to deal with. The good news is, it's made me more determined to give it another go, but with better planning and timing - so I appreciate the tips, sincerely.

[cyndy]

PS. Spidey senses were exactly what I was having "Frozen Solid" - so glad I didn't ignore them : )

[Beefitarian]

Sounds like you're getting in some good learning. Proceeding with caution is a solid plan.

Autumn can be a time when like you experienced, in the words of Whinnie the Pooh, a calm day can quickly change to, a Blustery one.

[iflyforpie]

I didn't check the weather yesterday but it wasn't a day I would have picked for bombing around in the mountains. The winds seem to always be strongest when approaching the Rockies from the east, typically around Canmore and Exshaw being the worst. The col going up from Canmore to Spray Lakes isn't called Windy Pass for nothing...

[flyinthebug]

My copilot did all the other flight planning, and I didn't even think to ask about the winds aloft, I had assumed that they had been checked (the right arm didn't speak to the left, and I know the adage re: assuming...so I should've known better in hindsight). The last time I went Mountain Flying was 3 years ago with an instructor out at Babin Air.

Hi Cyndy...

Just a couple things I wanted to offer as advice. First and foremost, with you as PIC, it is your responsibility to ensure you have ALL available information for your flight. You were flying through the Rockies with almost zero experience, yet did not do a winds aloft check before your flight? That could result in a mistake you would not be able to recover from. I realize you likely had an experienced "co-pilot" just by the way you are referring to him/her as being the experienced one between you both...but that does not relieve you of your duties as PIC. Number 1 rule when flying in the rocks is know what the winds are doing from the ground up! Do not leave such important information for your "co-pilot" to gather...and if you do task him/her with this job, you must ensure that YOU as PIC have reviewed the material (wx) and are comfortable with the go decision.

Winds in the fall in that region can be very treacherous. Ive been rocked really hard in a PA31-350 going that route and wouldn't recommend trying again until fall has come and gone. I lost a really good friend who was an extremely talented and high time "flat land" pilot. He went to BC to pick up an airplane he purchased and crashed in the rocks. He had thousands of hours of experience on that type of aircraft and those damn winds and fast changing wx was his downfall. He had no experience flying in the rocks and despite all his other knowledge, he drove it in.

As I believe beef said, the rocks can be the most beautiful and majestic things to view in the world from over top of them...but they can also kill you in a hurry if you don't know what your doing.

My best advice is seek out a co-pilot for your next trip that has extensive mountain experience and can explain things like cats paws, up and down drafts, inflows and out flows, and mechanical turbulence to you...so you`ll know what your dealing with when your experiencing it.

I think you made a very wise decision to turn around. Always trust your gut when it comes to something not feeling right in the cockpit. Id rather be a live chicken than a dead hero.

Next trip, ensure you have ALL wx information including upper winds (especially upper winds) and take along a friend that's been there done that and can explain what you are dealing with. Its a lot more fun that way and a lot safer too!

Good luck on your next attempt!
FTB

[Beefitarian]

There's nothing like flying through a place like the Rogers Pass on a calm day, 3/4 of the way up between mountains on each side.. My next piece of advise. dress like you're going for a hike in case you ever do. Yes, that white stuff is snow even though it's summer when I usually went.

[cyndy]

My copilot did all the other flight planning, and I didn't even think to ask about the winds aloft, I had assumed that they had been checked (the right arm didn't speak to the left, and I know the adage re: assuming...so I should've known better in hindsight). The last time I went Mountain Flying was 3 years ago with an instructor out at Babin Air.

Hi Cyndy...

Just a couple things I wanted to offer as advice. First and foremost, with you as PIC, it is your responsibility to ensure you have ALL available information for your flight.

Absolutely bang on with that comment...I shirked this responsibility when I should've known better. I won't make that mistake again. Although I trust my friend's ability to plan the trip, it was still down to me to check, and really dumb of me not to. I wont be making that mistake again. Definitely going to do better planning next go round. I have no desire to be a statistic and have kids that I need to get home to. Still, a worthwhile flight and I learned a great deal. If nothing else it felt great to get out and fly! I hadn't been up for a month! It was nerve wrecking and challenging, but exhilarating at the same time. I had a non refundable hotel booked on the other side, but was happy to have forfeited that hotel in Favour of a good decision not to be stubborn and press through.

[cyndy]

I absolutely acknowledge my responsibility as PIC...and you're correct that I was wrong to ignore that and rely on someone else regardless of their experience - very bad mistake on my part. Although I 100% trust my copilot's flight planning abilities, that doesn't mean I can shirk my own responsibility to know what I'm getting myself into before I get into it. A good lesson learned indeed and a mistake I won't be making twice. I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't even think to check the winds aloft on my own rather than just surface winds at local airports throughout the region. Next go, I will definitely go with someone who has lots of experience and have them walk through the flight planning with me. Which brings me to my next question: where can I find some experienced mountain flying pilots this side of the rocks? I'm happy to pay all expenses in exchange for the learning opportunity. Does anybody know anybody that they could recommend in calgary area?

[flyinthebug]

Your acknowledgement that you dropped the ball shows me you are a good pilot, willing to learn from your mistakes.

Carry on Cyndy

I do know some guys in YYC and will be there myself in 2 weeks. If I know of anyone interested in doing this flight with you, ill send you a PM.

Fly safe (and planned)
FTB

[cyndy]

Your acknowledgement that you dropped the ball shows me you are a good pilot, willing to learn from your mistakes.

Carry on Cyndy

I do know some guys in YYC and will be there myself in 2 weeks. If I know of anyone interested in doing this flight with you, ill send you a PM.

Fly safe (and planned)
FTB

That's awesome! Thank you!

[CpnCrunch]

Yes, the upper winds are what you need to check. With a forecast 20kt westerly wind at 9000 feet at YYC you'll be bounced around a fair bit, although it won't be dangerous. I'd recommend picking a day with lighter winds for your first mountain flights. When the winds are light, mountain flying is an amazing experience.

Also, flying in the valleys you generally have lighter winds than trying to fly over the top.

My recommendation would be to just pick a good day and fly yourself. If the weather is good (light upper winds, no clouds) and you don't do anything idiotic (see below), mountain flying is just as safe as flying on the prairies.

Idiotic things people do in the mountains:

- Entering a valley or rising ground while still climbing.
- Entering a box canyon without enough altitude or space to turn around
- Getting too low.
- Taking the wrong valley and ending up shit creek.

Even many mountain flying experts have killed themselves doing the above. It's really very simple - stay a reasonable distance off the ground, always have your altitude before entering a valley, and don't get too cocky. Also, unless you're just flying along the trans canada highway, check your route on a good topographic map. The VNC's scale is too small to show enough detail. You can use google terrain, although it can be difficult to see the height contours. What I normally do is fly the route in flight simulator X - it has detailed scenery, and you can see precisely what it will look like.

Anyway, I only have a handful of hours flying in the mountains, so take that for what it is worth.

[akoch]

I got WX briefing, it looked ok with some expected turbulence. It was Thursday last week, I left CYPK with no surface winds at all and went to CYGB looking at the wind aloft getting from 20 knot progressively to 25, 30, 35 as I progressed towards to Taxeda. OK, I thought I practiced landings at 30 direct crosswinds, so may be I'd take a look. Well, I'm getting to the circuit altitude, and it is 42 knots now (air computer shows it realtime on the PFD), with the sock that can't seem to make up its mind Fine, back I'm going. Beautiful illusions created by drift exercise at 42 knots 1000 AGL. And interestingly enough only moderate chop, despite all the terrain.
If you don't like what you're seeing - probably something is not right indeed, no need to take it further.

[CpnCrunch]

I got WX briefing, it looked ok with some expected turbulence. It was Thursday last week, I left CYPK with no surface winds at all and went to CYGB looking at the wind aloft getting from 20 knot progressively to 25, 30, 35 as I progressed towards to Taxeda. OK, I thought I practiced landings at 30 direct crosswinds, so may be I'd take a look. Well, I'm getting to the circuit altitude, and it is 42 knots now (air computer shows it realtime on the PFD), with the sock that can't seem to make up its mind Fine, back I'm going. Beautiful illusions created by drift exercise at 42 knots 1000 AGL. And interestingly enough only moderate chop, despite all the terrain.
If you don't like what you're seeing - probably something is not right indeed, no need to take it further.

It just depends on terrain. A 50kt wind at 9000 feet over the prairies when there is a chinook is smooth as silk if you're east of highway 2 in Alberta. Try flying over the mountains on a day like that and you're pretty much guaranteed to have a bad day.

IIRC the wind was blowing directly up the georgia strait on Thursday, and there isn't too much terrain in the way. Try YCD next time - it's much more sheltered and tends to have lighter winds.

[CpnCrunch]

Just bumping this thread, as the weather in the next week is looking good for mountain flying, with high pressure prevailing all the way from Vancouver to the prairies. Generally if there is a big high pressure system sitting over the mountains, that gives you ideal conditions as there will usually be relatively light winds and stable air. You can use the NOAA prog charts to see the surface analysis for up to 48 hours ahead, which gives a good idea of whether or not it's likely to be flyable in the next couple of days:

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/progs/

You just need to watch out for chinooks. You'll see them on weather charts as vertical dashed lines east of the Rockies - the dashed line indicates a lee trough, caused by high winds blowing over the mountains resulting in a low pressure trough at the surface.

[cyndy]

Just bumping this thread, as the weather in the next week is looking good for mountain flying, with high pressure prevailing all the way from Vancouver to the prairies. Generally if there is a big high pressure system sitting over the mountains, that gives you ideal conditions as there will usually be relatively light winds and stable air. You can use the NOAA prog charts to see the surface analysis for up to 48 hours ahead, which gives a good idea of whether or not it's likely to be flyable in the next couple of days:

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/progs/

You just need to watch out for chinooks. You'll see them on weather charts as vertical dashed lines east of the Rockies - the dashed line indicates a lee trough, caused by high winds blowing over the mountains resulting in a low pressure trough at the surface.

You're a doll...thanks for this! I really appreciate it : )

[Rookie50]

Good call Cyndy. Always listen to that voice. Only you can assess your experience, the airplane and the conditions at the end of the day and decide if they add up to a safe flight.

Great comments all around. My first mountain experience was in colorado with clear skies, wide valleys and especially light upper winds, but very high terrain --- and I'm glad it wasn't hot, gusty, and overcast, would have been way too much for me.

[LousyFisherman]

20% of the time I go flying in the mountains I abort over the last foothills or turn around after crossing the first range. 2 weeks ago at Okotoks there was no wind, over Longview it was bumpy, and west of Mount Livingstone my stomach was bouncing off the 4 walls of the cabin and it was time to turn around and get outta there

I have taken off from Red Deer Forestry early in the morning only to complete 1 circuit and land. I then went and had a beer cause I was not flying out that day ( No radio there, so no weather, takeoff and test is how Sparky puts it)

Upper winds are often the critical factor in mountain flying if the other weather factors are suitable.

It's OK to put yourself in situations where you feel a little nervous, to expand your abilities. But if it just makes you feel better to stop, then stop. Don't over-analyze. If you continue to feel nervous in the mountains, even on nice days, then bring a pilot friend the first couple of times. It's more fun that way anyway.

I agree completely, and would add: always be willing to abort!

YMMV
LF

[sky's the limit]

I'm a little concerned about what I'm reading on this thread. Just to make sure I'm understanding you all properly, this discussion is about flying OVER the mountains, not through them, correct? From what I can see in the posts above it certainly feels that way, and should that be the case, it's NOT the method for flying through mountains. If I'm misunderstanding, let me know.

You can fly through the mountains in almost any wind conditions, you just need to know how. Going "over the top?" Not a chance in a light single.

stl

[CpnCrunch]

I'm a little concerned about what I'm reading on this thread. Just to make sure I'm understanding you all properly, this discussion is about flying OVER the mountains, not through them, correct? From what I can see in the posts above it certainly feels that way, and should that be the case, it's NOT the method for flying through mountains. If I'm misunderstanding, let me know.

You can fly through the mountains in almost any wind conditions, you just need to know how. Going "over the top?" Not a chance in a light single.

stl

No, this is about flying THROUGH the mountains. Perhaps you can fly through the mountains in any conditions, STL, but for us weekend warriors the upper winds are a big factor because of turbulence in/between the valleys and in the foothills (rotor turbulence). Also not everyone has the luxury of having a turbine engine with huge amounts of thrust directed straight down

[1000 HP]

I'd consider my Mooney a light single. I've flown "over the top" VFR several times. I always stay in sight of the ground taking no chances. At 14,500' ASL I'm actually pretty close to the ground just ESE of Edmonton. Portable O2 helps keep us old guys alive too. I've picked decent weather and never "had" to get there. If I need to get there for sure, I jump in the pick-up truck.

[sky's the limit]

Also not everyone has the luxury of having a turbine engine with huge amounts of thrust directed straight down

FYI, long before I came to helicopters, I flew Super Cubs, 185's, 206's, Islanders King Air's and others in the mountains every day. It's not what type of engine or flying machine you have at your disposal, it's how you use it in the given environment.

As for "upper winds" being the deciding factor on whether or not one should venture into the mountains, it's a lot more complex than that... Sure you can get yourself into some good arse kickings if you are in the wrong place, but learning where the "right" places are, how to get to them, and how transition between them is the art of mountain work/flying.

There are many types of wind, prevailing "upper" winds are only one of them, and generally are not the ones you will be concerned with when flying through the mountain valleys as opposed to above them. Even when things are a bit rough, there are places where you can smooth out the ride, increase groundspeed, and find dramatic help in the vertical component of wind. Again, it's about knowledge, not the equipment.

"Weekend warrior's" or not, it is entirely in your best interest to gain as much knowledge as possible about how this system works, and it must be noted that it is indeed a system like any other, and one that can be understood then used to one's advantage.

stl