low time guy with a bit extra

[ocud]

Hey Gents (and ladies). I have landed myself in a sticky situation. I am a recent graduate and have typical low time, Multi IFR, IATRA, CPL etc etc. I also finished a Twin Otter initial training course at Flight Safety in hopes of getting with a company outside of Canada which unfortunately didn't happen this year. Now i've really dug a debt hole i cant get out of. I obviously want to get as much out of my Twin Otter training as i can, plus it was a blast to fly (in the sim) and would love to fly it one day. Does a young guy like myself stand any chance in Canada with low time and a completed Twin Otter training?

Cheers

[rooster]

did you pay for your twin otter ppc?

[Krimson]

You've put yourself in a horrible position. I hope for your sake you had something written down and can go after them for the cost of training.

[ocud]

I paid for the training myself. Nothing company related. It was a risky move but i wouldn't have done it if i didn't think i had a good shot at the job. I am still keeping in touch with them and will apply again next hiring spree.

[Krimson]

You screwed yourself. Pay for a type with nothing set up sounds pretty dumb to me, but you must have had some kind of agreement.

Getting employment on a twin otter with no time and no time spent on a ramp will be next to impossible.

[Boreas]

I really hope this is just someone's side-troll-project and not a serious post...

[notpaying]

The whole point when it comes to flying for a living is to make money while doing it and not the other way around. Now what you did is not the best of moves for yourself. If I am not mistaken you were probably offered a position with a reputated twin otter company in the carribesn whom has their thpe ratings done at YYZ Flight Safety. From what I gathered from my previous job hunt (when i called them up they said that I had to buy a type rating and then maybe I would be considered) to which I obviously said no and told them that I had no interest to pay to work. they also offer only six months contracts for F/Os.

[DanWEC]

Man, if you went out and spent 9k on just a chance of a job..... Whew. I'm guessing it was for WA as well. From what I've heard, they won't hire a non-local unless they absolutely have to, and that apparently hasn't happened for quite some time with local pilots actually being available.
Would you ever just throw someone 10k for a car, on the basis that they MIGHT consider selling it to you? Jesus.

Good luck, damn. Here's a good first lesson on CYA!! Let's hope subsequent applications work out for you.

[Colonel Sanders]

I've really dug a debt hole i cant get out of

Please don't do that.

[fish4life]

Give up the flying for 3 years work on the rigs and get yourself out of this debt situation then when you get some cash in the bank try it again if you still want to fly

[atmosphere]

Not the greatest decision! If I'm not mistaken the Twin Otter training course at Flight Safety doesn't give you a PPC, since PPC's are company specific. I believe you don't get anything on your license after the course. I have a few friends that did the course back in the day and got on with WA, however they all got laid off a couple of years ago.

A while back I heard that Borek sent their DHC-6 pilots to train at Flight Safety and welcomed guys who had this initial training (since it saved them the cash), not true if it's still the case. Trying applying at companies that operate Twin Otters and maybe you'll be lucky enough to get on with them. Some companies might see the value in it. Good luck!

[Beefitarian]

Give up the flying for 3 years work on the rigs and get yourself out of this debt situation then when you get some cash in the bank try it again if you still want to fly

Why give up? Do less but if you're working oil field you can do cool cross countries to build up your PIC time.

[fish4life]

I mainly meant stop spending lots of money until you can get out of the debt hole because there is no way you will be able to service the debt let alone try pay it off with the pay of starting jobs

[Beefitarian]

Yeah, the credit card ads never really talk about the point of no return do they?

[ocud]

Gents! thanks to everyone for their advice and suggestions. I will take most of them into consideration. I have basically applied to every twin otter carrier in and out of Canada. I know ive basically missed the hiring season but i am going to keep on trying and try and get my foot in the door at some of these companies.

Cheers

[notpaying]

Gents! thanks to everyone for their advice and suggestions. I will take most of them into consideration. I have basically applied to every twin otter carrier in and out of Canada. I know ive basically missed the hiring season but i am going to keep on trying and try and get my foot in the door at some of these companies.

Cheers

Edited.

[Krimson]

It's not your place to teach him a lesson.

He is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Had an opportunity, took the risk, and it did not pan out. Now he is dealing with the repercussions. Might be more risk than a lot are willing to take, but that is his choice.

[ocud]

He is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Had an opportunity, took the risk, and it did not pan out. Now he is dealing with the repercussions.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It was never my intention to try and cheat the system here in Canada. It was for a job outside Canada. And now that it is too late to do anything about my choice, why not try and make the best of it? Im thinking even if i work ramp at a company in Canada that flies Twin Otters it could benefit me (and the company) down the road when i get into their flight line.

[Rowdy]

A while back I heard that Borek sent their DHC-6 pilots to train at Flight Safety and welcomed guys who had this initial training (since it saved them the cash), not true if it's still the case.

Yes they send their pilots to flightsafety for sim training at some point. Its a great way to demonstrate the STOL capabilities in a safe environment. Including an engine failure below Vmc. No it is not welcomed to show up with the initial training unless it was from a previous employer and you're an offstrip/STOL qualified Captain. As many have said, it could be very detrimental to your chances, depending on who is in the office when your resume shows up, and I'm not speaking about just KBA. I wouldnt include it on a resume or even mention it north of the 49. But it will be advantageous to you should you get one of those jobs and already have some knowledge/experience in the twin. Thats about the only benefit I see. you certainly wont struggle through a company groundschool or bout of flight training.

There are however many new twin otters being built and sold around the world. Might be an idea to try elsewhere outside of canada as well. Shouldnt be too hard to watch the aircraft registry for viking and see where the machines are going

[notpaying]

He is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Had an opportunity, took the risk, and it did not pan out. Now he is dealing with the repercussions.

Couldn't have said it better myself. It was never my intention to try and cheat the system here in Canada. It was for a job outside Canada. And now that it is too late to do anything about my choice, why not try and make the best of it? Im thinking even if i work ramp at a company in Canada that flies Twin Otters it could benefit me (and the company) down the road when i get into their flight line.

I thought about what you wrote today and I may have been a bit harsh (with good intent) for all of our fellow pilots out there. I was once told that aviation is about the journey, not the destination. So I wondered what would precipitate such a decision for a fellow aviator in such a way that one would ponder and act on the idea of buying one's way into the industry ?

In order to help you out, a few ideas come to mind such as: roadtripping for a job, calling and introducing yourself over the phone, sending a resume, following up. 250 hours can get you a job in aviation. Although challenging, it can even get you a flying job. This said, these hours may also get you a job related to aviation leading to a flying position such as a rampie, a dispatcher, a cargo position, even a second officer job with certain companies. There are a multitude of avenues one may explore before going to buy a type rating, ppc, initial training etc. You just have to be creative and motivated.

To get back to the journey part, road tripping will give you the opportunity to meet many great people along the way and a few not so great, but hey these are everywhere. Working the dock/ramp somewhere will teach you a lot about aviation and ground ops, talking to different people in companies will bring you new connections, it will shape your people skills, it will bring you to amazing parts of Canada that you'd have never thought of living in and seeing. I cannot believe there isn't a job out there for you!

Luckily, I like to think that most aviators out there still prefer to go the non-paying route and request that we be paid for our skills and not the other way around.


Now what can you do about it?

- Forget that paying for a type rating is an opportunity. It is a business and a scam.
- Don't EVER mention that you paid for your training, at least not in Canada.
- go out there and get some VFR experience, get some IFR two crew experience up north, build some PIC.
- Enjoy the journey.

Good luck. And I hope that everyone out there who is thinking of paying for their own type rating, PPC or initial training will read this thread and think 1000 times before doing so.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Now what can you do about it?

- Forget that paying for a type rating is an opportunity. It is a business and a scam.
- Don't EVER mention that you paid for your training, at least not in Canada.
- go out there and get some VFR experience, get some IFR two crew experience up north, build some PIC.
- Enjoy the journey.

Good luck. And I hope that everyone out there who is thinking of paying for their own type rating, PPC or initial training will read this thread and think 1000 times before doing so.

+1

Too bad you did not do a bit of research

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=67182&hilit=Twin+O ... ght+safety

Bottom line: You are in exactly the same position that you were before you dropped the big bucks on useless training, a wannabe new CPL looking for their first job. So time to do what everyone else is doing, look for anything that will get you on the inside, ideally a flying job but probably ramp, dock, dispatch whatever. Work hard keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open and you can earn a good flying job.


For all the other wannabe's put there: Don't do this. learn the lesson !

[N1 Green]

Work hard keep your mouth shut and your eyes and ears open and you can earn a good flying job.

2 years later he is getting his first pilot job he "EARN" and go fly b200. 10 minutes later the Capt drops 10 knots below reff, one thing for sure: our newbie F/O will keep his mouth shut. he doesnt want to say anything, not now, not after he cleaned the office toilets for 2 years and now he is getting a chance to fly...
which by the way, I am sure he will do great after not flying for 2 years.



what about an I.T guy that pays for his Microsoft Training to get a job after he already graduated from school.
what about doctors that fly to Vegas for a 3 day seminar for 4000$ ? (my brother just did that), just so he can put himself on a diffrent level.
what about an electrician paying 10,000$ to get his saftey core so maybe.. if he is lucky - he might win the bid and get the job.

Paying 60 dollars an hour for a CFI that get paid 12$/hr is ok, but paying 5000$ for some turbine time is not?


by working the ramp for 2 years - you keep the engine called "aviation abuse" up and running.

We cannot educate new pilots "not to apply" for ramp job. they will do it the sec they get the chance.

but at least one thing we CAN do here - not to show that it's OK to work the ramp , or as it's the "good way to go" or like you wrote "EARN".

You DO NOT Earn your wings by cleaning toilets. But one thing you do for sure - you are bearing your self respect.

[Krimson]

What's all this talk of earning a spot? You are getting hired to do a job. Remember what this is. You're not working your way up to brownie leader.

I don't understand how people can think working two years on the ramp to get a right seat job in a navajo is a good move. What if I want to maintain my life and not move up north? A non-flying job is a non-flying job. Why not do something you like and earn some good money while you do it? Save up, buy a type rating (with a job guarantee). You'll be ahead of the SIC navajo pilot career-wise, be making more money, and have more money saved in the bank. All in probably less time than the navajo pilot spent "earning" his spot on his first machine.

Pay for PPL? OK
CPL? OK
Multi? OK
IFR? OK
Type Rating? Not OK
Spend hundreds on a road trip? OK
Spend thousands to fly out for an interview and move to new city? OK
Take a large pay cut to fly for Air Canada? OK

Who makes these rules?

[FenderManDan]

Pay for PPL? OK
CPL? OK
Multi? OK
IFR? OK
Type Rating? Not OK
Spend hundreds on a road trip? OK
Spend thousands to fly out for an interview and move to new city? OK
Take a large pay cut to fly for Air Canada? OK

Who makes these rules?

+1 good post.

Who are these young meat-head pilots anyway that listen and follow these advices? I am not in the flying biz so I don't know the big picture, but it is puzzling to me why this happens to pilots. Please enlighten me.

I am in the IT biz and after the big U, that I paid from my pocket without any guarantee of the job, my first day at work was coding this file processing application in C++ and not cleaning toilets and cleaning the office windows.

I understand that some operators want to "domesticate" young-lings that can potentially kill a bunch of people by sticking them on the ramp to get the through the military style abuse. Once the attitudes are adjusted and something is learned perhaps move them to the right seat. If I were the "operator", I would not even hire this type. I would prefer to hire someone that is serious about the biz and paid his education. There are ways to test this.

Now what I said above is the "utopian view". What really seems to happen is a scam/abuse and there seems to be a large supply of meat-heads that want to go through the process. If Canada had a mandatory military service this would not have happened. Once you get burned in the basic training you would not want to go through that again ever.

Ramp job is for rampies/rampys, whatever the spelling and not pilots. In my opinion.
Now it seems to me as an outsider that operators see PPL/CPL MIFR training is really worthless in Canada, perhaps in the US as well.

Don't get me wrong, I would not put the fresh CPL to be a skipper of the Airbus after he is done his training, but the right seat is quite fine to help the skipper and learn. If you don't trust the person for the right seat why hire them in the first place for anything.

OP you invested/gambled on your rating and so what, you probably learned a bunch. There are million ways to waste million $.

Blue skies.

[Tail-Chaser]

Of course there's the expendable rampie mantra too.

Don't pay the rampies or ground staff too much, they always leave!
Why do they leave? Because you pay them too little and treat them like shit!

Being a rampie seems like an extended interview and I will never understand it. Sure, you can figure out my attitudes and maybe figure out what I know and don't know, but let's say I suck at dispatching, and I get fired because of that, when I was hired to be a pilot eventually. It's ludicrous.