low time guy with a bit extra

[cdnpilot77]

Obviously the skills gained in towing a banner, dropping skydivers, are not needed to fly a ME turbo-prop as college grads are going straight to Jazz or King Airs.

Sorry, have to call you on this one. This is a ridiculous statement. Of course you will use your skills and experience from these jobs when moving into bigger equipment. Read about the Air France crash in the Atlantic or the Asiana crash, or the multitude of others that may have been avoided if there were basic flying skills other than pushing buttons learned and or experienced. Just because college grads ARE moving into the likes of Jazz does not make that the best progression. Also, read about the requirements for an ATPL. There are so many factors in play, I don't think you have thought out this statement very well.

[airspeed250]

Obviously the skills gained in towing a banner, dropping skydivers, are not needed to fly a ME turbo-prop as college grads are going straight to Jazz or King Airs.

... There are so many factors in play, I don't think you have thought out this statement very well.

I didn't mean to imply a pilot is not becoming better skilled by any of the above means. It goes without saying. I have friends who are skydive pilots and instructors, and I have tremendous respect for them. I'm sure I will be in their shoes someday too. All I meant was, if a person can go straight to a 703/704 environment with minimum time and a TR, and can also learn in that environment, why not try for that from the start. That's all.

[cdnpilot77]

As demonstrated by my point, because they might not have the skill or experience to recognize a bad situation and be able to correct it in time or at all which with bigger machines means more lives at risk.

[photofly]

Is the skill of recognizing a bad situation in a banner-towing C150 applicable to recognizing a bad situation in the right seat of a Q400 or 737? How much overlap is there?

If you put a first-rate-at-recognizing-a-bad-situation-and-fixing-it 737 co-pilot in a banner-towing C150, would he or she automatically be competent there?

Or are they entirely different skill sets?

[cdnpilot77]

Recognizing a dangerous situation in any airplane...comes from experience, no? You can't recognize what you don't know exists.

Proficiency is various conditions of flight in any airplane (not just a sim)...comes from experience, no?

[Diadem]

airspeed250, even if you bought a type rating, your chances of going directly into a 1900 or Dash-8 are practically zero. I can't think of a single company in Canada that would put a pilot on a 1900 with less than about 800 hours, and even more for the Dash, not can I think of any which would hire a pilot with said rating but no experience on type. Typically the companies which get pilots into a large turbine aircraft with less than 1500 hours are promoting them from within. You have a very, very slim chance of getting on with Jazz in their low-timer program of you go to the right college, pass all the interviews, and are lucky enough to be one of the two or three people chosen pet year, but buying a rating won't help that.
Now, I want you to read my last post. Why do you think that you should be able to jump over the guys who've been working the ramp for three years and get flying before them because you paid for it? You're lucky enough to be able to afford that, but those 20-year-olds aren't, and they didn't have the option of dropping a ton of cash. Why should you get ahead of them because you had money and they only worked their asses off for years? This is exactly the sense of entitlement I'm talking about: good for you if you can find a flying job right out of school, but don't think you can buy your way into a flying position while there are guys working hard to get that same spot.

[N1 Green]

Recognizing a dangerous situation in any airplane...comes from experience, no?

No, it comes from personality perspectives.

nice poor CRM example: http://avherald.com/h?article=46a4ae55&opt=0 at CYYC.

a very good sniper is not nessecerly a good soldier.

you may fly 2000 hours on a nice 182 with 3 miles vis and TS around you making sure the pipeline is still there,
but that doesnt means you are doing it right, or safe.
it doesnt mean that you are the right guy to fly multi crew environment.

I think this post is going somewhere else.. at the end of the day, some people pay for their Type Raring or other PPC training and there is nothing wrong with that.

you guys are PILOTS. stop saying that you prefer to work the line because you dont have the $$ and it's better than working Mcdonalds.
If you managed to get your MIFR/CPL without any help from your parents , I am sure you are talented enough to find a good paying job better than Mcdonalds.
The point is that you dont want to work hard. you prefer to go the EASY way. work the ramp for 2 years and just WAIT for your turn - which I can understand in some point.

I know guys that worked hard to get their $$ and paid to TR. they had 200$ in their CHQ account the day after they put the $$ into TR.


I am mad about the employers, not about the ramp guy. I used to run my own bussnisand when I see employers saving 5$ an hour by hiring ramp it pises me off.

[photofly]

Why do you think that you should be able to jump over the guys who've been working the ramp for three years and get flying before them because you paid for it?

The obvious answer is "because he's got more money than they have."

Almost everything in this world has very little to do with merit, very little to do with fairness, and everything to do with who you know, and how much money you (or your parents) have.

Rich people get to drive faster cars and live in bigger houses too. Is that fair?

[Krimson]

Diadem, my intent is not to be rude, but your whole post sounds like whining to me. "Why does the rich guy get everything, but not me?"

In no part of the world is it fair. Those who work more, in one way or another, reap the rewards. Because you choose the easy and "conventional" route to put your name at the bottom of a list and wait, why do you feel this sense of entitlement to any position? If someone else comes along who shows he has more value than you to be put in the plane right away, of course I would choose him first. Keep you in your dispatch position; you do have experience for that now which is better than putting you in a plane.

All the talk of this "rich-boy" getting everything and how you are the victim is sad. You cannot blame other people's parents for your misfortunes. A lot of people worked their asses off to be able to afford a TR, went to school for another trade, went out to make the contacts, etc. For you to look down on people who have worked so hard to be able to afford a life they want while you sit and wait for a job is not right at all.

If you limit yourself to the options between McDonalds or working on a ramp, maybe you shouldn't be flying an airplane.

Laziness on pilot's parts is why we have the ramp system we have today.

[Nwtflier]

The point is that you dont want to work hard. you prefer to go the EASY way. work the ramp for 2 years and just WAIT for your turn - which I can understand in some point.

Yaaaaaaaa, easy way. That's exactly how I would describe being a rampie. Care to explain how working for 2 years on the ramp(or anywhere)is easy as opposed to buying a type rating? I mean I know sometimes the A/C doesn't work in the sim, but do you have any other examples?

Heck I'll even accept ONE example.

[photofly]

I guess you could say it's intellectually easy. Unimaginitive. A case of working harder instead of working smarter.

[Nwtflier]

Spending $10k to get a job where you make $35k doesn't sound like working smarter to me, but I see what you're getting at. However rampies don't just move cargo from position A to position B, there usually is some thinking and planning involved regarding airplanes. Where to park them, how to park them, when to pull certain planes out of the hangar and put others in so you don't blow through all your profit in hangar door openings, when to deice, what kind of deicing agent to use etc etc.

I'm not saying it's rocket surgery, but being a rampie is not as easy as people think. I can say with 100% certainty that it takes more brain power to work the ramp than to travel to Toronto and walk into flight safety.

[N1 Green]

Yaaaaaaaa, easy way. That's exactly how I would describe being a rampie. Care to explain how working for 2 years on the ramp(or anywhere)is easy as opposed to buying a type rating?

It's the safeway my friend, and you know that.

all you have to do is work hard and wait for your name to get to the top of the list.
like i mentioned before; we are not dealing with 2 or 3 companies that does that, if that was the case this post is not relevant.
we are talking about a way of life in Canadian aviation, we are talking about 20+ companies that hire people to save $$. and that's wrong.

I mean I know sometimes the A/C doesn't work in the sim, but do you have any other examples?
Heck I'll even accept ONE example.

what example ?

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are no, nil, nada jobs in Canada for a 200 hr CPL with a self bought type rating on any 705 class aircraft or jet powered corporate aircraft. Any wannabe cpl who buys a Dash 8. 737, Learjet etc etc type rating is a fool.

There are guys/gals going into the right seat of 703/704 T props with 200 hrs but I would say virtually all of them already have a connection to the company because they work the ramp or dispatch. Almost all of them will unfortunately end up buying their first type rating either directly or indirectly.

Finally showing up with a shiny type rating still means the company has to give you a PPC. Good companies won't ask for money up front as they will absorb the upfront cost of the PPC. So ask yourself before the company commits to the training would they more likely invest in

1) Somebody who already has a couple of hundred paid hours working in a commercial pilot

2) A known quantity who is already working the ramp/dispatch

3) Somebody with no industry experience, a bare TR with no line experience and who is a complete unknown

Chances are they will always be more guys and gals in category 1 and 2 then available jobs so nobody is going to look at category 3 folks

Finally the crap outfits look at training as a profit center. They want you to pay them for all your training so why on earth would they hire someone who already has a TR, or in other words someone who paid somebody else for their training.

If you are a brand new CPL buying a TR is a very bad idea

[N1 Green]

move cargo from position A to position B, there usually is some thinking and planning involved regarding airplanes. Where to park them, how to park them, when to pull certain planes out of the hangar and put others in so you don't blow through all your profit in hangar door openings, when to deice, what kind of deicing agent to use etc etc.

Agree. but that should take 3 weeks to learn. not 3 years.

[Nwtflier]

It's the safeway my friend

But see it's not the safe way.

I mean sure, if you are the perfect employee, never late, always happy and never make mistakes then sure, it's the safeway. But for the most of us your time on the ramp is a little nerve racking, you're working around some EXPENSIVE pieces of equipment, freezing your nuts off in the winter, surrounded by some seriously experienced folk who see your every move and see how you react to a little bit of adversity and did I mention the winter?

On the contrary, swiping your visa through the machine at Joe Blows Air Charter is the safeway, no?

[N1 Green]

But see it's not the safe way.

I mean sure, if you are the perfect employee, never late, always happy and never make mistakes then sure, it's the safeway. But for the most of us your time on the ramp is a little nerve racking, you're working around some EXPENSIVE pieces of equipment, freezing your nuts off in the winter, surrounded by some seriously experienced folk who see your every move and see how you react to a little bit of adversity and did I mention the winter?

On the contrary, swiping your visa through the machine at Joe Blows Air Charter is the safeway, no?

I think that by putting the word "easy" in my last post i caused a minor earthquake here

I will better explain myself;

I was a partner in a 703 concept operation in the Netherlands before I moved to Canada.
we had a nice Astra.
the idea is not to stop your training at CPL/MIFR. go get your MCC training. maybe put down some cash 25,000$ and fly some MIFR PIC.
what's the cost of a multi engine time , 250-300 an hour? , for 25000 you'll get about 100 hours?

So now, you are a CPL guy with MIFR , about 350 total time. 130 Multi and out of the 130 - you got 100 MIFR PIC (don't just fly to the practice area, buy some oxy and go FL above wx down to the States) plus you got your MCC training done. and write down your IATRA.
I would feel much more comfortable to put you on the right seat of a king air.

see , it's not about buyin your C560 type. it's about getting yourself as close as you can to the concept you want to work with.

If your dream is to fly bush, go work the ramp and get your float. you want to fly 703, dive into G530 and get some MIFR PIC..

if you are a flight ins, with 1200 tt and 300multi with some extra cash, go get your C560 type.

that's my point.


and if you are still looking to hear my opinion about the ramp - see my post on page 2 about hiring the right person.

[Krimson]

swiping your visa through the machine at Joe Blows Air Charter

What about the time taken to pay that visa bill? That is the hard work. You are out there busting your balls to be able to afford swiping that card. That is working smarter. I would rather take a job paying 2-3x as much as working on a ramp just to be close to airplanes. Get some connections, learn a thing or two how business works and be able to prove my value to a chief pilot. Once an agreement is made, I would return with a type rating paid out of my own pocket and bypass "freezing my nuts off in the winter".

There is a story above about a gentleman who started his own construction company to be able to pay for a type rating. You cannot possibly say pushing a few airplanes around on a ramp is more work than that.

It is very true however, to buy a type rating with 200 hours and no job guarantee is a very bad move. Talk to operators before you are about to put anything out of your pocket. Manage the risk!

[Nwtflier]

That's a good point Krimson and I agree that starting your own construction company or any company for that matter is a heck of a lot harder and way more of a risk than being a rampie. But I don't really think this is a normal circumstance, could be wrong though. Just throwing ideas out there, but once that gentleman gets his TR what's his plan with his business? There's not many aviation/owning your own business options that I can think of that allow you to still run a profitable company, especially not a new company. I just think that the ramp is good for a new pilot, teach you some stuff, hang around other pilots, see what is actually involved in running an airline on a daily basis besides showing up and flying.

On the winter thing, if you run a construction business, you WILL be freezing your nuts off.

[notpaying]

Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up?

[N1 Green]

I
N1 Green you are European and so is the OP ocud. Why Am I not surprized that you both support this concept? Because that's how things work in Europe. Word of advice. WE ARE IN CANADA here. We see things NOT THE SAME as you"guys". Get over it. .

My son just finished his 3rd year in UoC (Calgary) , he was born in Canada. do the math young man.

I am here to give you different angle of view.

I love it how Krimson and N1 Green avoid answering this question...! Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up? .

Because you are a pilot with SELF respect. Can you get a job today paying 50-60 a year that is not related to Aviation ?

I am sure you can. Go DO IT. Don’t let Joey Boey from NWT pay you 9.23 an hour. He should pay 17.29 an hour to a qualified guy that is dedicated to the ramp and he KNOWS THAT.

Read my previous posts and you will understand what a civilized ways of learning means.


You are right, we are in Canada. but do me a favor please – right click on windows clock in the bottom or the top, it should show you the date. It’s 2013 my friend, Not 1973.

Are we on the same page now ?

[N1 Green]

found one!

http://www.cargair.com/en/crm-mcc
http://www.cargair.com/en/beechcraft-king-air

Made in Canada, only for you "notpaying "

PPL/CPL/MIFR/MCC/100 MULTI IFR PIC/IATRA/BE10 TRAINING.

HOW MUCH? - 70,000? 80,000?

work for 3 years and pay it yourself. you are a pilot.

too many hours of AVCANADA blue screen,I think I am done for today.. good night!

[notpaying]

found one!

http://www.cargair.com/en/crm-mcc
http://www.cargair.com/en/beechcraft-king-air

Made in Canada, only for you "notpaying "

PPL/CPL/MIFR/MCC/100 MULTI IFR PIC/IATRA/BE10 TRAINING.

HOW MUCH? - 70,000? 80,000?

work for 3 years and pay it yourself. you are a pilot.

too many hours of AVCANADA blue screen,I think I am done for today.. good night!

With all due respect N1' I don't think we will ever be on the same page when it comes to this debate. One thing I am pretty sure we can agree on is that Europe does have amazing beer and women. Good night yourself.

[Krimson]

notpaying, you seem to have a very closed mind on this subject. That is your choice, but people who are open to explore every opportunity available with the right mind have the potential to achieve their goal before someone who wants to stick on the ramp to "earn" their way up.

I believe your question has been answered multiple times.
"Why pay for a TR when there are flying jobs out there that one may get with 200-250hrs by showing simple competence, motivation and basic HR skills such as following up?"

Pay for a TR because you do not want the 200 hour jobs. If my goal was to open a restaurant, I wouldn't start by flipping burgers, I would raise the capital to open up my own restaurant. It would not be earning my way up as a fry cook. Same as a TR, raise the capital to qualify for the career you want.
Why do you think it should be a prerequisite to a successful career by doing something you don't want to do? If you do not want to instruct, leave civilization, or endanger your life sent out alone doing a 702 job you're barely trained for; then don't! There are options is what people are trying to show here. To not consider all your options and shun everyone who has not chosen the same as you is not the way to go.

Nwtflier, the guy starting his own company would be a special circumstance, however there are many different ways to raise money was my point. There are many entry level jobs which pay a lot more than a ramp position with a dangling carrot. It may seem appealing, but going the same direction as everyone else will not allow you to stand out and catch your break. You got to fight for it.

[homesick]

I'd rather pay a certain amount for that opportunity than pay with the most precious thing I have, time. I couldn't stomach ramping it for 2-3 years on poverty level wages. So opted to do the next worse thing, got myself bonded for a 737 TR.

I don't understand quite exactly. You got yourself bonded or you paid for it ? THat's two different things. Did you even take any steps to find a flying job once you finished school ? Or you simply said, I don't wanna ramp and walked into a TR training institution?

I am asking this because I have the feeling that some fellow aviators might have simply assumed that there are no flying jobs, did not want to ramp and consequently walked into a TR training facility. That is a huge problem. There was tremendous movement in Canadian Aviation during the past year and it might have slowed down slightly, however one CAN secure a flying job with a fresh CPL and without paying for any training. As I have mentioned it in a previous post on the same subject, there are entry level jobs with 200 hours out there... are you ready to move away and take the necessary steps to secure them ?

Haven't paid a dime, yet. Although being bonded wasn't a great option either, but the best option out of all three. And I did move away. Had to leave Canada. Is that far enough of a move?
Tremendous movement in the past year- you are taking solace in some meager growth over 12 months? Is that the certainty that exists in Canadian aviation now? I know that aviation,concurrent with the global economy, is viciously cyclical. But 12 months of 'movement' does not bode well for a long term sustainable career.
You seem to discount the time cost you can potentially end up wasting by not grabbing an opportunity when it arises. I have gotten jet time 3 years earlier than I would have ramping. I have gotten 2000 hours more jet PIC three years earlier than ramping. And been, thankfully, paid adequately for my services. So for me it was a no brainer. And I DID do the road trips, more than once. Got the usual PFO's in their various forms.
Again, there are different ways to achieve your career goals. I applaud the guys who ramped it and genuinely envy the folks who have done some tough and fun bush flying in some of the most challenging and beautiful environments on earth. Folks have taken the military route to get that initial experience. Some have outright paid for their training.
I have also met guys who have gotten their licenses and just given up because of a lack of viable opportunities in aviation. While they miss the flying they are thriving in their chosen fields.
Who is to say which is the right logical path to your eventual goal? Certainly not me.