Advise on searching for submerged plane wreckage

[Billie T.]

Hello Everyone,

Next summer, I am returning to northern Ontario to look for the wreckage of a Junkers 33fi airplane that crashed into the ice on a lake and caught fire in March of 1932. In the spring what was left of the wreckage – including a full tail section – sank in what I believe is in less than 20 feet of water.

According to Wikipedia, the Junkers 33 fi was built with “erodynamically clean all metal cantilever (without external bracing) monoplane. The designs used an aluminum alloy duraluminum structure covered with Junkers’ characteristic dural skin.”

I am new to this so I have a few questions about what I may be able to find and the best way to locate the wreckage.

Any information would be appreciated. Here are my questions:

1. After 91 years, how much would the wreckage (aluminum alloy duraluminum structure covered with Junkers’ characteristic dural skin) have deteriorated?

2. Should I use a sonar device (commonly referred to as a fish finder) with side scan capabilities, or should I use an underwater camera, along the lines of a Aqua Vue or Marcum, or does someone know of a better product?

3. In addition, are there magnetometers that can be rented and used in a small boat (14-16 foot) that would help?

Thank you in advance for all your help.

Sincerely
Bill Thompson

[lownslow]

What does the bottom of the lake look like? I wonder if for a low buck search you could just tow a downrigger behind your boat and investigate every snag.

Possibly more important: what's the plan once you find it? Say 'Mission Accomplished' and leave it there? Raise it to display somewhere as is? Raise and restore? Will there be enough left for any of that? Do you have a plan to stabilise the corrosion that's started? Simply taking it out of the water won't stop deterioration, in fact it can make it worse.

If you want one of your own, it may be easier to head to Ottawa with a tape measure and a notepad and copy what they have on display.

At any rate, it's quite the machine and I wish you luck in finding it.


LnS.

[ScudRunner]

Well if its German and under water I would go with depth charges.

[J31]

Well if its German and under water I would go with depth charges.

Not to worry....it is already sunk!

[Panama Jack]

Ach du lieber Gott, ze War endet 70 years ago!

[Billie T.]

Hello Again Everyone,


I just wanted to answer the questions that "lownslow" asked.

• I am not sure if the bottom of the lake is hard or soft.

• The idea of down rigger is worth looking into. Thanks.

• If I find the wreckage, all I want is a photo to prove that it's there. I have no plans for disturbing the wreckage. As you said, it will be "Mission Accomplished." And thanks for posting the photo of the Junkers. Much appreciated.

By the way, the pilot that was killed in the crash was Godfrey Dean, who originally served in the British Air Force during WWI, before coming to Canada. Ironically, Dean flew as a passenger in the same aircraft from Montreal to Winnipeg.

He was surprised when he saw the plane at the landing at Robinson Lake in Ontario.

Take care.
Bill Thompson

[Siddley Hawker]

I'd go with a metal detector of some kind. Although the airplane burnt, the ironmongery attached to the front is probably still there on the bottom.

[1000 HP]

Hey Bill,

Check out J W Fishers website: http://www.jwfishers.com/

I'm considering purchasing one of their hand-held units. I'm also a SCUBA Diver. Let me know if you would like some help on your search. I'm off June and August of 2014 and could probably make the drive out there. Is the site road accessible?

I've found a PBY up north that has likely never been dived on. It is so remote and deep by the looks of the surrounding terrain, that it is an expensive undertaking. It's on my bucket list.

1000 HP

[lownslow]

Bill, I'm glad you didn't take my post as offensive to your project. I hope you do find something and get to return home with at least some pictures.

If you don't mind me asking, where (roughly) will you be looking for the Junkers? If it's anywhere near my neck of the woods I'd love to help out whether you need an extra set of eyes, someone to steer the boat, or even just someone to ship equipment to in advance of your own arrival.

LnS.

[1000 HP]

This could be an interesting project. I assisted in the search for the Fokker Universal on Charron Lake (only by flying in the searchers 2 years in a row, including the year they got their side-scan hit of the aircraft). If it is not deep as indicated, it should be within the realm of the sport diver to photograph (assuming it is not covered with loon poop)
Just remember that the Canadian government owns anything over 25 years old. Pictures only eh?

[Billie T.]

Hello Again Everyone,

I just thought that I would answer the questions in the more recent posts, plus say thanks for the ongoing advise.

For now , all I will say about where the lake and crash site are is what was in my original post – in Northern Ontario, and the only way to get there is to fly in. And I will have lots of help with the search from some friends and a pilot. I hope you can understand my keeping it close to the vest.

In an earlier email, Bobo thought that a magnetometer might be the way to go in my search. Further on the advise of 1000HP, i visited the J W Fishers website and was able to read a lot of information on the magnetometers that are available today. The one thing that really caught my eye was the fact that they can detect metal at far greater distances than a metal detector. I'm hoping to find someone in Ontario Canada that rents magnetometers.

Having said that, according to Wikipedia, the Junkers 33 fi designs used an aluminum alloy duraluminum structure covered with Junkers’ characteristic dural skin. So I will have to find out if a magnetometer will detect the wreckage.

I also I believe that you can't just drag a magnetometer right below the boat, because of possible problems with the outboard motor noise. As a result, I'm looking into the feasibility of towing one slowly, suspended below a styrofoam board that people use as flotation devices. Something along the shape of a surf board.

That's about it for now, but I'm sure glad that I found the AVCANADA web site, along with all its forums.

Take care
Billie T.

[Phlyer]

I was thinking whatever detector you use would be much more likely to get a hit on the remains of the engine rather than the the fuse or wings. Just a thought.
Best of luck - let us know how you make out and post pictures if you find anything.
Cheers

[Instructor_Mike]

You should contact the Harvard Recovery Team. They were associated with the aircraft discovered in Muskoka last year and are still looking for the other nomad.

www.chaa-recovery.ca

[Billie T.]

Hello Everyone,

I just wants to take a minute to say thanks to both "Phlyer" and "Instructor_Mike for their posts.

While I have no proof either way, I'm assuming that the engine was left with the rest of the wreckage, so Phlyer's post was a Godsend. I never even thought of the engine. Thanks again Phlyer. As you can tell, I am new at this.

And Instructor_Mike, thanks for the tip on Harvard Recovery Team. The more I read about them, the more I'm impressed. Yes, the home fires are burning brighter nope.

Billie T.

[Phlyer]

Hello Everyone,

I just wants to take a minute to say thanks to both "Phlyer" and "Instructor_Mike for their posts.

While I have no proof either way, I'm assuming that the engine was left with the rest of the wreckage, so Phlyer's post was a Godsend. I never even thought of the engine. Thanks again Phlyer. As you can tell, I am new at this.

And Instructor_Mike, thanks for the tip on Harvard Recovery Team. The more I read about them, the more I'm impressed. Yes, the home fires are burning brighter nope.

Billie T.

No worries. Not sure what your budget is but I recall a Lidar equipped plane found an old wreck in about an hour of searching. I tried to find the article but couldn't - if anyone has a link that would be helpful. It was an old warbird in one of the Great Lakes if I remember right.

[Instructor_Mike]

The CHAA Recovery team usually uses side scan or magnetometer towed from a boat. We've got a few targets and leads on aircraft in the lakes so I'd suggest comparing notes with some of our researchers.

[co-joe]

I wonder if any mag work has been done in the area. Of course you can't tell us where... But hey if someone has flown lines in the area the data my already be out there. They'd discount it since they'd be looking for oil, or diamonds, or some other commodity. I wonder if the onterrible version of the ERCB would have records of where magnetometer data has been collected.

[Instructor_Mike]

We've done mag work around Kingston, but the natural variations in that area are far greater than the small change an aircraft would make unfortunately. I don't know about other areas that was a specific case where we were sharing data with a university. Walt has most of the the recovery team data.