49 Ship formation fly-by

[AirFrame]

It's hilarious that you think that formation can be taught during a weekend course

It's hilarious that you assume a weekend course is all these guys had before they started. I don't understand why you would assume that.

The two Pitts' in that video start out nicely line abreast, but on the downline one of them is acute (or the other got sucked). Looks a little sloppy. But I guess that's okay... Formations with small numbers of planes flown by experts never go wrong. Just ask the French Connection, the Thunderbirds, the Snowbirds, etc.

Sh*t can happen to anyone, even those who think they're immune to it. That includes both RV pilots looking to improve their skills, and Pitts pilots with 1000's of hours under their belts. I'm aware of it. Are you?

[Colonel Sanders]

Please feel free to stop by any time in person
and show me how it should be done

You've done lots of formation aerobatics at
the surface - plenty of it outside, I am sure

Hey, what types do you have on your SAC?

[Nordo]

After thinking about it for a while, I have changed
my opinion.

I think it's just great when civilians with little or no
formal training or qualifications attempt formation flying!

Really??

Some of the best moments of humanity have come together with astounding amounts of risk. Good thing you weren't there to scold the Wright Bro's for attempting to do something dangerous, we might all be driving busses or piggy-backing on roller skates (with helmets and goggles of course). I think this formation flight was awesome, I wish I could have been there to watch in in real life!! Even better, I would have loved to have been one of the pilots flying!!

[Colonel Sanders]

astounding amounts of risk

Reminds me. Here are some photos of Andrew
Phillip's funeral, which we hosted:

[Big Pistons Forever]

FAST training is not a weekend course.

For me it started with 10 hrs of dual taught by an X snowbird X RCAF QFI. After 25 hrs of practice to get a wingman qual I had to pass a check ride by another X RCAF instructor who after retiring from the RCAF was the lead for a 9 ship aerobatic act. I also have to re-qualify by means of a check ride in a 4 ship formation every year.

Formation flying like low level aerobatics is tremendously unforgiving of incapacity or neglect. Seeing the video shows only a small part of the total flight and to my eyes is not long enough to ascertain whether the flight, in total, was conducted safely or not. To judge the overall safety and indeed sanity of this flight one would IMO, have to know the background of all the pilots, what level of briefing and working up was taken before assembling all 49 airplanes and how safely the join up and break up of the formation was.

[Colonel Sanders]

RV Formation:

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 0o0018.asp

After departing Lindsay, Ontario, C-GNDY and 2 other aircraft (an RV-9A and another RV-7A, hereafter known as the lead) joined in formation and climbed to 9500 feet above sea level (asl).

C-GNDY had a video camera mounted inside the cockpit and was filming the other 2 aircraft. After a short period of time, the RV-9A left the formation and headed toward Bancroft, Ontario, while C-GNDY and the lead continued toward Smith Falls, Ontario.

The 2 aircraft descended to about 3600 feet asl. C-GNDY was in a right echelon formation behind the lead. The pilots agreed that C-GNDY would film the lead during some aerobatic manoeuvres, which began with a sudden pitch up and a steep right bank. They were followed by a series of tight turns, partial rolls, climbs and descents.

At some point during the manoeuvres, the lead lost all contact with C-GNDY and subsequently began a search for the aircraft. The lead radioed the RV-9A and together the 2 aircraft searched for, but could not locate, C-GNDY. The 2 aircraft flew to Smith Falls, Ontario, and called the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC). C-GNDY was located by JRCC at 2220 1 near Wolfe Lake, Ontario, approximately 11 nautical miles (nm) north of Madoc, Ontario.

Andrew Phillips was 2 hangars down from he,
and he's dead now, after that RV formation flight.

Sh*t can happen to anyone. I'm aware of it. Are you?

You might say that.

[Colonel Sanders]

For me it started with 10 hrs of dual taught by an X snowbird X RCAF QFI. After 25 hrs of practice to get a wingman qual

35 hours of formation training is pretty light.

I know this won't apply to the RV pilots, but for
the rest of us, it takes years of training and constant
practice to be safe.

Most people here might think that 100 hours
of formation time is a lot. Get back to me when
you have 1,000 hours of formation time.

For many decades, people have treated low
altitude aerobatics, and formation, with contempt.

Most of them are dead now.

[AirFrame]

Andrew Phillips was 2 hangars down from he,
and he's dead now, after that RV formation flight.

To be completely accurate, he's dead after flying an airplane beyond Vne with unbalanced control surfaces. The fact that he did it while flying formation is beside the point.

More to the point, yes, one RV crashed while flying formation with another. To date, i'd hazard a guess that there are a lot more airshow pilots with 1000's of hours of experience who died flying low-level aerobatics, than there are dead RV pilots who crashed while flying non-aerobatic, ceremonial, straight-and-level formations (like the 49-ship flight in the original post).

[Colonel Sanders]

Looking forward to you stopping by and showing us
all here how it's done! I always appreciate the chance
to fly with a God of Aviation like you or Fern Villeneuve
or Rob Holland:



Congratulations on the surface SAC with the formation
endorsement, by the way. That's quite an accomplishment!
Takes the rest of us around 10 years to develop that
level of skill, which an RV pilot can pick up in a weekend.

[AirFrame]

You keep mentioning surface SAC's and formation endorsements, none of which are necessary to fly non-aerobatic formation, which is what these 49 airplanes were doing.

Congratulations on getting your AvCanada ban lifted, looks like you're well on your way to another one!

[Rookie50]

So daytime formation flying is dangerous even after passing a comprehensive course; but flying to 100 feet ILS minimums; at night; should be no big deal and endorsed for any weekend warrior?

Not sure I get that at all.

[Colonel Sanders]

Reality doesn't matter to this crowd.

As long as your feelings aren't hurt, it doesn't
matter if you crash.

Airframe: We are looking forward to your visit here!



I will arrange Fern Villeneuve to be here at the same
time, I am sure there is much that he can learn from
you as well.

If you let me know what date you will be arriving,
I will contact Rob Holland and try to get him here
too, so he can avail himself of your wealth of
knowledge, skill and experience when it comes
to formation flying.

[AirFrame]

Eventually you might clue in that *my* experience, skill, and knowledge were not in question here. You keep bringing it up to attack me, as though it matters.

It's the experience, skill, and knowledge of the 49 pilots in the initial post that you called into question, with only your natural arrogance (nay, ignorance) to support it. I really don't care if you think you're packing the kind of tackle that you'd normally expect to find swinging about between the hindlegs of a Grand National winner. Somewhere on the internet i'm sure there's a place for that though.

[Colonel Sanders]

So your position is that experience, skill and knowledge
"does not matter" when it comes to qualifying an opinion?

The internet was certainly a great invention for someone
like you. I am tremendously amused that you think that
a true statement of your level of experience, skill and
knowledge, you considerto be "an attack".

PS Remember, let me know when you are going to stop
by and show us all how "it's really done" in the real world.

[AuxBatOn]

To be fair, CS, I consider myself a competent for formation pilot. I can definately safely and effectiveqly fly formation as a wingman and as a lead (close form). The largest close formation I have been part of was a 10-ship of fast jets.

As a lead, I am able to safely lead multiple aircraft and precicely hit a time on target for whatever (I have done my fair share of fly-bys for events, including one in Colorado with a 12 000 ft drop from the IP to the target and manage to hit TOT while keeping my wingmen with me. So, I don't think it's a stretch to say I am safe and competent.

If I flew 100 hours of close form in my life, that's good. My training consisted of 6 dual missions during Basic Flying Training, 6-7 more during advanced and 2-3 during my Hornet OTU, for a total of maybe 20 hours.

It's not about how many hours you got. It's about the quality of those hours. If someone gets 35 hours of training from a Snowbird, I'd say that guy is certainly safe and probably effective.

[Colonel Sanders]

It's not about how many hours you got

With all due respect M, consider contacting Eric Clapton
and Mark Knopfler and telling them that.

If you ever read . Yeager's autobiography, the answer
he would give people when they asked him how he got to
be a good pilot: "I flew more than everybody else".

Mistakes in formation are horribly expensive. I can only
apologize for wanting to raise the bar, above a weekend
course.

[AuxBatOn]

Flying 10 000 times the same hour doesn't make you a better pilot though... Different type of flying will have a different impact on your recency. And your initial training will have a huge impact on how you are going to develop.

[Colonel Sanders]

I have never met the master of any trade
or skill who has not practiced constantly
for decades.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENJlmnqxZUQ


Can't learn to do that in a weekend. Don't
care how good your teacher is.

In my experience, all the greats are self-taught,
despite their poor training.

Talk to me about the career of the greatest RCAF
fighter pilot in the last 75 years - George Beurling.

Did he get to be the best because he recieved the
best training the RCAF could give him?

[AuxBatOn]

Not talking about being a master. Talking about being safe and effective.

[Colonel Sanders]

Now we're talking about grading hamburger vs steak.

Did Robin Olds and John Boyd get to be so good, because
of the superior training that they received?

[Colonel Sanders]

I have tried to communicate a very important
lesson here, which has been repeatedly ignored
and ridiculed on egalitarian grounds. Feelings.

I will try again.

Flying formation requires skill. If nothing goes
wrong, you might be able to get along with a minimum
level of skill and proficiency.

However, things always go wrong. Mechanical.
Weather. Traffic. ATC "challenges". The list is endless.

You don't want to be maxed out, just holding position,
because when things go wrong - and they will - you will
need to have a whole lot more percentage CPU left over
to figure out how to live for the next few seconds.

Another lesson, which is sure to be ignored and ridiculed
by the experts here: when something goes wrong, the
level of danger in a formation is an exponential function of
the number of aircraft in the formation.

So when things go wrong in formation, the difference
between living and dying is going to be the ability to draw
on a lifetime of experience and skill, which comes from
decades of continual practice. You know, 10,000 hours.

Let's talk about your hero, Robin Olds. In his autobiography,
he talks about surviving a low-altitude formation aerobatic
airshow sequence, when the lead screwed up. Talk about
SA. Now according to you, he doesn't need to be a "master",
he just needs to be hamburger, and should have died on
that day, so long ago.

[Colonel Sanders]

Now, the "experts" here, in the interests of egalitarianism,
will argue that a high level of skill is not required for straight
and level formation. You know, nothing aerobatic. Nothing
down low.

I would like to introduce the "experts" here to Joe Walker, DFC.
USAF fighter/test pilot. Experimental physicist. NASA X-15
astronaut. And you know how he died?

Straight and level formation, for a frikken photo shoot with
a frikken bomber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_A._Walker

Chew on that.

[Colonel Sanders]

Now, I'm willing to accept from the "experts"
here that I have no clue what I am talking about
on the subject of formation. Bona fide.

In this picture, you will see ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN
years of aviation experience (just added it up).



Maybe - just maybe - I have a clue of what I speak.

[Colonel Sanders]

... and in contrast with the above, let's see what
the egalitarian formation pilots are up to today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Hmz2XiJGs

[AirFrame]

I have tried to communicate a very important
lesson here, which has been repeatedly ignored
and ridiculed on egalitarian grounds.

See? When you take a step back, calm down, and think, you *can* put together a post that I agree with 100%.

Like it or not, we are talking about grading hamburger vs steak here. My group flies six to seven aircraft at most, in positive-g, non-aerobatic formation. We started out self-taught, two planes at a time, and eventually picked up some instructors (ex-RCAF instructors), and some standards for positions, hand signals, etc. that matched what others were doing. Eventually, after a few years of practise, we did a weekend FAST "course". Yes, it was a weekend course, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

In order to get to 10000 hours, you have to pass through 100. You had the benefit of an airline career to boost your numbers... Some of us are buying our time one hour at a time.