Hiring child-bearing age females

[shimmydampner]

Hoooooweeeeeee! We got a live one!

When interviewing two male candidates, who are otherwise equal you should not pick the heavier one, as he is more likely to lose his medical from diabetes, a heart issue, or some other future medical ailment.

Don't forget the increase in payload.

[mrsbitchy]

LOL – The first interview I had back in 1986, the guy asked how many days a month I would have to take off because of PMS. Then said I would have to over-night in a crew house with men, what did I think of that. I was 21 – said I don’t have a problem with PMS or overnights. He rolled his eyes. I was not hired. Personally, I think “we have come a long way, Baby”, and I think I have contributed a lot to the aviation community. I never did have children, because I wanted to fly. In the industry I think the girls that want to advance their career, wait until they are established with the majors before deciding on a family. I have only had one female take maternity leave. Yes, it hurt, but I’ve also had more males leave for greener pastures without EVER giving 9 months’ notice! Just my two cents worth

[Doc]

LOL – The first interview I had back in 1986, the guy asked how many days a month I would have to take off because of PMS. Then said I would have to over-night in a crew house with men, what did I think of that. I was 21 – said I don’t have a problem with PMS or overnights. He rolled his eyes. I was not hired. Personally, I think “we have come a long way, Baby”, and I think I have contributed a lot to the aviation community. I never did have children, because I wanted to fly. In the industry I think the girls that want to advance their career, wait until they are established with the majors before deciding on a family. I have only had one female take maternity leave. Yes, it hurt, but I’ve also had more males leave for greener pastures without EVER giving 9 months’ notice! Just my two cents worth

"I never did have children, because it wanted to fly......" Pretty much sums it up for me.
If you didn't WANT children, cool.
If you let your career dictate to you, not to have children, fool.

[mrsbitchy]

My husband already had two, which were and are a joy. I just didn't want to have my own.

[Flybabe]

LOL – The first interview I had back in 1986, the guy asked how many days a month I would have to take off because of PMS. Then said I would have to over-night in a crew house with men, what did I think of that. I was 21 – said I don’t have a problem with PMS or overnights. He rolled his eyes. I was not hired. Personally, I think “we have come a long way, Baby”, and I think I have contributed a lot to the aviation community. I never did have children, because I wanted to fly. In the industry I think the girls that want to advance their career, wait until they are established with the majors before deciding on a family. I have only had one female take maternity leave. Yes, it hurt, but I’ve also had more males leave for greener pastures without EVER giving 9 months’ notice! Just my two cents worth

No kids for me, either. Never wanted 'em, never will. I have worked with people that have taken maternity leave, and people who have taken paternity leave.

[Colonel Sanders]

FB: I'm sorry you feel that way.

Although some of my ex-spouses are bit
cranky sometimes, I have never regretted
and cherish all of my children.

As I have aged, I have realized that it is the
people, not the hardware, that make aviation
different. This is especially true of family.









I'm not putting this into words very well, but
over the decades, people drift in and out of your
life, but my airshow pilot friends are closer than
any of my non-pilot acquaintances ever will be.

It's all about the people. And the most important
people are your family. It saddens me that you
choose to not have any.

[rigpiggy]

Hey CS cute kids, why do they look like the milkman lol sarcasm

[Colonel Sanders]

why do they look like the milkman

and a darned good thing that is - he has very nice
slim hips, while I have a huge @ss, which the kids
didn't inherit! Daughter #1 getting Stearman dual:





Daughters #2 & #3 are all about horses. And guns.
Horses, horses, horses and guns, guns, guns.

I'm afraid between the methane of the horse poop
and their love of firearms (they're off at a shooting
contest in Ohio this weekend) David Suzuki and the
CBC wouldn't like them very much. Oh well.

Doc said:

If you let your career dictate to you, not to have children, fool.

Years ago, I remember flicking through the channels
and seeing an interview with a fat chick called Stevie
Nicks that you've probably never heard of. It was
incredibly sad that she said she never had any kids
because of the pressure to "be in the band", called
Fleetwood Mac.

[Flybabe]

FB: I'm sorry you feel that way.

Although some of my ex-spouses are bit
cranky sometimes, I have never regretted
and cherish all of my children.

Oh, don't be sorry. This was my own personal decision, and one that would have remained the same whether I was in aviation or not. I've just never wanted any, never had any interest. Am I horrible? Maybe, maybe not.

I can live vicariously through others.

I refrained from commenting on the " ... some of my ex-spouses ... " part

[Beefitarian]

I think you were trying to be genuine but disagree, what's right for you is not the only magic formula.
Whether a person does or does not want to procreate should have no bearing on their value.

[PieInTheSky]

I have, on more than 3 occasions, had to listen to the owners of the company I was working for ramble on about how they’ll never hire female pilots because all they do is get pregnant and/or run off with their captains. They then usually proceeded to shoot me a glaring look, as if to say “you’re lucky we let you in”.

Righto.

Statistics Canada publications indicate that from 2001-2011, fertility rates for females between the ages of 20-29 is in constant decline. Fertility rates for women ages 30-34 are consistently increasing, and are currently the highest. I think it would be a safe bet to assume these trends would continue this way, because women are choosing to have children later in life due to professional goals.
Is any of this even really relevant, though? If we’re going to throw around biology and statistics when we’re hiring people, then should we consider that men are more likely to die in fatal car accidents, have the highest criminal rates, die younger, and are more likely to become drug addicts? Should we grapple over how women are more likely (gasp) to become pregnant, have higher rates of heart disease, or are more likely to be victims of crime?

No.

If you have Joe and Judy vying for the same job with the same qualifications, then it’s probably your job to interview them and see which has a personality and values that are better suited to your company. And if you’re seriously thinking about not hiring Judy because she’s in her “child bearing age”, maybe you should consider the fact that you’re a moron. There’s a reason you can’t legally ask Judy if she wants children, and it’s to protect her from morons like you who just want another excuse to be a cheapo “in the best interest of the company” and keep the girls out of the boys club “where they belong”.

I’m a 26 year old female pilot who has no intention of having children in the next 8-10 years, but when I do, hopefully I’ll be working for an employer who respects the personal decisions of their employees. And if I’m not, then guess what? They can suck salt and deal with it.

I think we all have to outright admit that there’s a lot of discrimination in aviation, and that this is just one more hurdle that the small number of women in this industry have to jump over. The sooner we admit it, the sooner we can address it as the problem it is, and help dissolve these ridiculous issues that exist in male dominated workforces. Childbearing is not, and will never ever ever ever be a valid excuse not to hire someone. There is ALWAYS an underlying reason, and these things are just used as a pathetic cover up.

[Flybabe]

I think you were trying to be genuine but disagree, what's right for you is not the only magic formula.
Whether a person does or does not want to procreate should have no bearing on their value.

Correct, no bearing whatsoever.

Just my own personal decision, that is all

And in regards to Pie's post - all very good points.

[Colonel Sanders]

"value"?! Not sure where that came from. All I can do is
agree with Doc when he says to not let people pressure
you into bad decisions - that benefit them and hurt you.

This is not a subject that is restricted only to reproduction.

[crazy horse]

FB: I'm sorry you feel that way.

........ I have never regretted
and cherish all of my children.

That comes off a bit preachy. And having "never regretted..my children" is not the same as not wanting children in the first place. I have children and I have close friends who don't. It isn't for everyone.

[Colonel Sanders]

"a bit"?! I guess I must be improving

What I can't figure out is why the government hasn't
gotten into the business of licensing and taxing childbirth.

They license and tax the crap out of everything
else, regardless of any merit of the regulation.

One thought: in my experience, over the decades,
there is more nonsense involved in child-rearing
than with any other human activity, with the possible
exception of off-shore boat racing.

It is simply stunning what politicised nonsense is
treated as sacred "Truth", when it comes to raising
children.

[crazy horse]

"a bit"?! I guess I must be improving

What I can't figure out is why the government hasn't
gotten into the business of licensing and taxing childbirth.

They license and tax the crap out of everything
else, regardless of any merit of the regulation.

One thought: in my experience, over the decades,
there is more nonsense involved in child-rearing
than with any other human activity, with the possible
exception of off-shore boat racing.

It is simply stunning what politicised nonsense is
treated as sacred "Truth", when it comes to raising
children.

Two things;

First, to keep on topic. Having an employee away for an extended period of time does open the door for temp and part time work, and that is appealing to some people. So, there's that.

Second, on politicized child rearing. Recent school related news items include; -no touching-no peanut butter sandwiches-no soccer-no honour role-no blue ribbon on sports day.

[Colonel Sanders]

Recent school related news items

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4

[Beefitarian]

"value"?! Not sure where that came from. All I can do is
agree with Doc when he says to not let people pressure
you into bad decisions - that benefit them and hurt you.

This is not a subject that is restricted only to reproduction.

My point was it should not make you sad if someone can identify they don't want to be a parent.

Telling people what they do makes you sad tends to trigger a sense that they let you down and should fix the situation.

[Colonel Sanders]

No one could possibly care what I think. You
learn that, as you get older.

For example - back on an aviation topic - at an airport
not too far from me, all sorts of well-intentioned people
are so hard at work, pushing paper for federal and provincial
goverments - all in the name of public safety, of course -
that supervision and skill development is being neglected.

Tin is being bent, and people have died. More tin will be
bent, and more people will die, because no one except me
sees that there is a problem.

It makes me sad that safety is being decreased to such
a low level, in order to satisfy our civil servant overlord's
thirst for useless paperwork. According to the rhetoric,
all in the name of "public safety". The staggering irony,
of Monty Python-esque proportions, goes right over their
heads.

You think anyone could possibly care about that?

Nope. No one could possibly care what I think.

Keep on bending tin and killing people. That's what the
government wants, and that's what the government gets.

[Beefitarian]

It makes me sad that safety is being decreased to such
a low level, in order to satisfy our civil servant overlord's
thirst for useless paperwork. According to the rhetoric,
all in the name of "public safety". The staggering irony,
of Monty Python-esque proportions, goes right over their
heads.

You think anyone could possibly care about that?

Keep saying that but this makes me sad too. My buddies that never had kids on the other hand make me happy.

[shimmydampner]

If we’re going to throw around biology and statistics when we’re hiring people, then should we consider that men are more likely to die in fatal car accidents, have the highest criminal rates, die younger, and are more likely to become drug addicts?

Who was throwing around statistics?

A big problem is that there are certain people out there who, upon not getting a job, promotion, etc. will immediately and vociferously posit that it must be because of some greater conspiracy to hold down that person based on what equipment is in their undies, what they like to do in their bedroom, what deity they pray to, or how much skin pigment they have. Sometimes you're just not as good as the other person, but I suppose it's easier to put on your tin foil hat and tell yourself that bad people are giving you a raw deal.
I'm not going to say sexism doesn't exist in aviation, but I'm willing to bet it's largely isolated to the low-level bottom-feeder types of operations that most anyone, male or female, would prefer to avoid if possible.

[snoopy]

Post got deleted?
.....
Several times over the course of my career I have been turned away for openly stated reasons of being female. I don't know which is more amazing, the fact that this still the norm, or the fact the person dared to openly declare the reason. One employer, who did hire me and for the most part I have great respect for, has very strong view points about not hiring potentially child-bearing women due the unfair burden they supposedly place on a small businesses such as his. Over that point we strongly disagreed, and had many heated debates but clearly his mind was made up.

Many of the few of us could go on for hours, even days about all the stupid stuff we have seen and heard throughout our careers - from passengers, colleagues and employers alike. Quite frankly most of us would rather devote our passion and positive energy to more productive ends than waste it on trying to change people who have already devoted their lives to being close minded and disrespectful of others.


Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[PieInTheSky]

Sometimes you're just not as good as the other person, but I suppose it's easier to put on your tin foil hat and tell yourself that bad people are giving you a raw deal.
I'm not going to say sexism doesn't exist in aviation, but I'm willing to bet it's largely isolated to the low-level bottom-feeder types of operations that most anyone, male or female, would prefer to avoid if possible.

Oh, absolutely. Sometimes you're just plain not good enough. I'd much rather believe someone won me out with skills than dwell on it and be miserable. I think sometimes people jump to conclusions out of defensiveness, but they don't really believe it's the reason. "Oh they didn't hire me because I'm a (this)(that)(etc)" is not something I commonly hear from anyone (more specifically, any member of a minority group), because to be honest, nobody wants that. Nobody really wants to admit to themselves that they are being treated differently because of something they cannot change about themselves. It's actually very hurtful, forces you to evaluate a lot of things, and then makes you realize you've got to grow some thick skin to survive it all. I'd find a million other reasons before I settle on that one, honestly.

But then, of course, there are those who will cry discrimination at the drop of a hat, and those who actually really do discriminate. Both a bunch of morons, but if we never admit the root of it, we'll still never fix it.

(Oh, and I mentioned statistics because someone did comment about it earlier…and well, if we're talking about "women of child bearing age", you are implicitly talking about statistics anyway.)

[pdw]

The statistics angle is also maybe a basis to hold a discussion on this (H.C-B.A.F.) together for some "mature" discussion ?

I'm trying to figure out why this thread is still here or what the OP is trying to gain from it.

I believe maturity allows that to some extent. It's quite moving/encouraging to realize that there are a lot of businesses that will go a long way to make our system work better ... so yes, discussing/addressing any issue maturely serves to introduce positive ideas for those engaged in (or in the future) making the hiring decisions for a company's success in the long term.

[Beefitarian]

I think he was just curious to see if anyone who participates in gender based selection would actually write out their opinions thinking they were somehow "anonymous".
Personally I think the politically correct movement actually hurts progress to a degree. If we could just openly say nasty things like in the 1970s, you could tell who's who in this sort of conversation easier. After the racial jokes were done there would be that guy that didn't stop.

And Kudos to Beefitarian for being human enough to defend a woman's individual freedom of choice and respect her reasons - whatever they are.

Yeah, life is a funny thing. Again I'm sure the Colonel was being sincere and sharing his joy. I have gone on live chat here with his son and he seems like a really terrific young man. I was not suggesting the Colonel was assigning a value based on having a family or not. I was just pointing out that a decreased sense of value could be how others perceive the "makes me sad" comment. Right or wrong.

I'm not a guy that thinks my wife and her friends could start a roofing company, be bricklayers, plumbers or even drive taxis. There are women who could though. Sort of on topic my wife is actually a very good driver but she does not enjoy it. When I have had a few delicious single malts and she has no choice, I know we're in good hands. Personally I have so far only flown with female pilots (instructors) who were completely capable and much more experienced than me.

Back to the babies, I do think if a person of any gender does not want children, that is a legitimate choice for them.

I have met or known several couples that desperately wanted children but for whatever physical reason could not have them. Often it is devastating to both of them. Many feel their value is dependent on being a parent and that can be extremely depressing for some. If that is the case there simply is no gentle way to discuss the matter.

One couple I know is separated and the woman is a flight attendant for A/C. Other than the skills which can most certainly be obtained by women. How is her job different from being a pilot for the same company. Most of the away from home having babies difficulties would be identical. I know, the training was less expensive.

Hire the best candidate not the one that meets a quota. Then again it's silly to avoid the better candidate just because they look like someone that did a bad thing once. It's the 21st century people. I sure hope one day people can make the right choice, to try to hire the best candidate without being afraid of appearance, it seems unlikely though.