There have been a lot of threads lately (including my own) that 'rant' about the insane hiring requirements these days. And essentially how these requirements are affecting our career development.
I had a great discussion with our Chief Pilot which changed my attitude. He said that he is starting to lower the requirements at our company because of the fact that the airlines are starting to hire. He believes that the large pool of pilots that has been growing since 9/11 will slowly dry-up. He reminded me of 2001 where all of our KA captains had between 2,000h and 3,000h...and that today all of our KA captains have over 4,000h...and that these 4,000h guys WILL soon leave!
He wants to prepare our company for the future by lowering requirements to a point where it allows the lower time guys within the company to upgrade! And he wants to take the company back to pre-9/11 days where greenhorns come in at the bottom and started working their way up.
He admitted to me that for the last three years management has had the power because of the huge supply of pilots. But he also admitted that things are already shifting.
I hope he's right!!
G
Good news for hiring requirements...I think?
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
Good news for hiring requirements...I think?
"Slow and steady wins the race"
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bizjet_mania
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DragEraser
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Boss Hawg
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You picking on poor Hazatude there?clunckdriver wrote:STOP SHAFTING EACH OTHER BY WORKING FOR LESS THAN THE GUY PUTTING THE FUEL IN YOUR AIRCRAFT!
You've made lots of good points there, and while I agree with you entirely, it'll never go back to being like it was before. The whole Wal-Mart, big box, low service, rock bottom price mentality is so pervasive that people expect it everywhere now - restaurants, clothing stores, hardware stores, car dealerships, movie theatres, yes even airlines......you name an industry and the low price mentality is there. You can't compete by offering better service anymore, it's all about price and nothing else. Trying to be classy won't get you anywhere, which is too bad, it would be nice to put a little style back into daily life.
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Flaps 1 Billion
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GGN guys are leaving, look at all of them that went to JG, most of them captains. I should think a fair few of them will move onto AC and JAzz, a couple have even gone onto Cathy in the last little while. There are some that are at the age and seniority that a move would hurt them and have decided to stay and finish their careers there. Though only a few, many of them will move on soon and have over the past year, progression is starting to pick up now.
ho ho ho merry christmas
I wish it were just as easy to turn things around as to write it down in a post. Our problems stretch from each new commercial pilot hungary for a job, right up to our ATPL guys paying $30K for a PPC. I certainly didn't get into this career for money but it doesn't mean that I am willing to sacriface my well being. However, I am willing to pay my dues and slowly move my way up through the system learning as much as I can from those more experienced than I.
WIth regard to the hiring procedures of operators, I believe they can set their requirements at which ever they like considering that they are out for the best possible employee. Low-time guys like myself are expected to work our way through up. Other professions do the same, so I think its ok to work the ramp. Insurance is the other key factor here...Unless companies can grasp somewhat of a break from the "bloodsuckers," we're never going to notice low-timers moving up at a signifigant rate. Its unfortunate, but true!
-Cheers!
WIth regard to the hiring procedures of operators, I believe they can set their requirements at which ever they like considering that they are out for the best possible employee. Low-time guys like myself are expected to work our way through up. Other professions do the same, so I think its ok to work the ramp. Insurance is the other key factor here...Unless companies can grasp somewhat of a break from the "bloodsuckers," we're never going to notice low-timers moving up at a signifigant rate. Its unfortunate, but true!
-Cheers!
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complexintentions
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I agree that it may never go back to where it once was. But I also believe there is a growing backlash against the whole globalization and Wal-Mart mentality. Some of it is due to people slowly realizing that basing decisions solely on price (as opposed to cost) is in the end run extremely harmful, as it doesn't consider the system as a whole (ie the people working to produce the good or service).Boss Hawg wrote: You've made lots of good points there, and while I agree with you entirely, it'll never go back to being like it was before. The whole Wal-Mart, big box, low service, rock bottom price mentality is so pervasive that people expect it everywhere now - restaurants, clothing stores, hardware stores, car dealerships, movie theatres, yes even airlines......you name an industry and the low price mentality is there. You can't compete by offering better service anymore, it's all about price and nothing else. Trying to be classy won't get you anywhere, which is too bad, it would be nice to put a little style back into daily life.
Not trying to provoke a discussion on global economics. My point is, the worst thing we could do is assume that everything is inevitable and there's nothing that can be done. It isn't random forces that have brought about things to the way they are, it is conscious decisions by management and consumers. And a lot of what has happened can be undone. Clunckdriver is absolutely correct, people need to take a stand. Not like psycho-militant union crap, but get educated and stick to your principles.
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
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snaproll20
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- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:50 pm
you are all terminally nuts, every last one of you.
There never was a good pilot salary scale other than in militant pilot unions which, like most unions have gone over the top. Stop deluding yourselves.
At one end of the scale, we have low salaried commercial pilots who work often demeaning jobs, under difficult conditions, hopeful of a
'future'.
At the other end, you have senior AC pilots who make $200,000 plus per year and phone in, based on seniority, to ensure they only fly enough to stay qualified. They no longer have any kind of loyal work ethic, if these (abundant) stories are true. How can a flight attendant be making six figures?
Yes, some kind of 'action' to increase salaries would be nice, but I have not seen it in over forty years.
A pilot is a strange creature who thinks he is something special, but in reality, he is up a cul-de-sac in the workforce because he is good for nothing else. His talents cannot be carried over to any other profession.(There is the odd person with a second string to their bow, but not many.)
If the airlines truly start hiring en masse, yes, there will be some salary competitiveness by employers for valuable pilots but there will be a lot of blood on the floor before it ever gets to where it perhaps should be.
I laughed at the clown at AC who was quoted in the news as saying "We are leaders of men." Since they do very little but push buttons and whine about their lot, while being supported by a host of restrictions and endless help, one would have to say a Ho driver exercises far more leadership than they do on a daily basis. It was just another crock.
If you have not got my point yet, it is that too many of you have your expectations too high and are unwilling to band together to solve what you perceive is a problem. You fly because you want to, not for the money.
There, that is my long-term observation rant. Now attack me.
There never was a good pilot salary scale other than in militant pilot unions which, like most unions have gone over the top. Stop deluding yourselves.
At one end of the scale, we have low salaried commercial pilots who work often demeaning jobs, under difficult conditions, hopeful of a
'future'.
At the other end, you have senior AC pilots who make $200,000 plus per year and phone in, based on seniority, to ensure they only fly enough to stay qualified. They no longer have any kind of loyal work ethic, if these (abundant) stories are true. How can a flight attendant be making six figures?
Yes, some kind of 'action' to increase salaries would be nice, but I have not seen it in over forty years.
A pilot is a strange creature who thinks he is something special, but in reality, he is up a cul-de-sac in the workforce because he is good for nothing else. His talents cannot be carried over to any other profession.(There is the odd person with a second string to their bow, but not many.)
If the airlines truly start hiring en masse, yes, there will be some salary competitiveness by employers for valuable pilots but there will be a lot of blood on the floor before it ever gets to where it perhaps should be.
I laughed at the clown at AC who was quoted in the news as saying "We are leaders of men." Since they do very little but push buttons and whine about their lot, while being supported by a host of restrictions and endless help, one would have to say a Ho driver exercises far more leadership than they do on a daily basis. It was just another crock.
If you have not got my point yet, it is that too many of you have your expectations too high and are unwilling to band together to solve what you perceive is a problem. You fly because you want to, not for the money.
There, that is my long-term observation rant. Now attack me.
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snaproll20
- Rank 7
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:50 pm
you are all terminally nuts, every last one of you.
There never was a good pilot salary scale other than in militant pilot unions which, like most unions have gone over the top. Stop deluding yourselves.
At one end of the scale, we have low salaried commercial pilots who work often demeaning jobs, under difficult conditions, hopeful of a
'future'.
At the other end, you have senior AC pilots who make $200,000 plus per year and phone in, based on seniority, to ensure they only fly enough to stay qualified. They no longer have any kind of loyal work ethic, if these (abundant) stories are true. How can a flight attendant be making six figures?
Yes, some kind of 'action' to increase salaries would be nice, but I have not seen it in over forty years.
A pilot is a strange creature who thinks he is something special, but in reality, he is up a cul-de-sac in the workforce because he is good for nothing else. His talents cannot be carried over to any other profession.(There is the odd person with a second string to their bow, but not many.)
If the airlines truly start hiring en masse, yes, there will be some salary competitiveness by employers for valuable pilots but there will be a lot of blood on the floor before it ever gets to where it perhaps should be.
I laughed at the clown at AC who was quoted in the news as saying "We are leaders of men." Since they do very little but push buttons and whine about their lot, while being supported by a host of restrictions and endless help, one would have to say a Ho driver exercises far more leadership than they do on a daily basis. It was just another crock.
If you have not got my point yet, it is that too many of you have your expectations too high and are unwilling to band together to solve what you perceive is a problem. You fly because you want to, not for the money.
There, that is my long-term observation rant. Now attack me.
There never was a good pilot salary scale other than in militant pilot unions which, like most unions have gone over the top. Stop deluding yourselves.
At one end of the scale, we have low salaried commercial pilots who work often demeaning jobs, under difficult conditions, hopeful of a
'future'.
At the other end, you have senior AC pilots who make $200,000 plus per year and phone in, based on seniority, to ensure they only fly enough to stay qualified. They no longer have any kind of loyal work ethic, if these (abundant) stories are true. How can a flight attendant be making six figures?
Yes, some kind of 'action' to increase salaries would be nice, but I have not seen it in over forty years.
A pilot is a strange creature who thinks he is something special, but in reality, he is up a cul-de-sac in the workforce because he is good for nothing else. His talents cannot be carried over to any other profession.(There is the odd person with a second string to their bow, but not many.)
If the airlines truly start hiring en masse, yes, there will be some salary competitiveness by employers for valuable pilots but there will be a lot of blood on the floor before it ever gets to where it perhaps should be.
I laughed at the clown at AC who was quoted in the news as saying "We are leaders of men." Since they do very little but push buttons and whine about their lot, while being supported by a host of restrictions and endless help, one would have to say a Ho driver exercises far more leadership than they do on a daily basis. It was just another crock.
If you have not got my point yet, it is that too many of you have your expectations too high and are unwilling to band together to solve what you perceive is a problem. You fly because you want to, not for the money.
There, that is my long-term observation rant. Now attack me.
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snaproll20
- Rank 7
- Posts: 636
- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:50 pm
you are all terminally nuts, every last one of you.
There never was a good pilot salary scale other than in militant pilot unions which, like most unions have gone over the top. Stop deluding yourselves.
At one end of the scale, we have low salaried commercial pilots who work often demeaning jobs, under difficult conditions, hopeful of a
'future'.
At the other end, you have senior AC pilots who make $200,000 plus per year and phone in, based on seniority, to ensure they only fly enough to stay qualified. They no longer have any kind of loyal work ethic, if these (abundant) stories are true. How can a flight attendant be making six figures?
Yes, some kind of 'action' to increase salaries would be nice, but I have not seen it in over forty years.
A pilot is a strange creature who thinks he is something special, but in reality, he is up a cul-de-sac in the workforce because he is good for nothing else. His talents cannot be carried over to any other profession.(There is the odd person with a second string to their bow, but not many.)
If the airlines truly start hiring en masse, yes, there will be some salary competitiveness by employers for valuable pilots but there will be a lot of blood on the floor before it ever gets to where it perhaps should be.
I laughed at the clown at AC who was quoted in the news as saying "We are leaders of men." Since they do very little but push buttons and whine about their lot, while being supported by a host of restrictions and endless help, one would have to say a Ho driver exercises far more leadership than they do on a daily basis. It was just another crock.
If you have not got my point yet, it is that too many of you have your expectations too high and are unwilling to band together to solve what you perceive is a problem. You fly because you want to, not for the money.
There, that is my long-term observation rant. Now attack me.
There never was a good pilot salary scale other than in militant pilot unions which, like most unions have gone over the top. Stop deluding yourselves.
At one end of the scale, we have low salaried commercial pilots who work often demeaning jobs, under difficult conditions, hopeful of a
'future'.
At the other end, you have senior AC pilots who make $200,000 plus per year and phone in, based on seniority, to ensure they only fly enough to stay qualified. They no longer have any kind of loyal work ethic, if these (abundant) stories are true. How can a flight attendant be making six figures?
Yes, some kind of 'action' to increase salaries would be nice, but I have not seen it in over forty years.
A pilot is a strange creature who thinks he is something special, but in reality, he is up a cul-de-sac in the workforce because he is good for nothing else. His talents cannot be carried over to any other profession.(There is the odd person with a second string to their bow, but not many.)
If the airlines truly start hiring en masse, yes, there will be some salary competitiveness by employers for valuable pilots but there will be a lot of blood on the floor before it ever gets to where it perhaps should be.
I laughed at the clown at AC who was quoted in the news as saying "We are leaders of men." Since they do very little but push buttons and whine about their lot, while being supported by a host of restrictions and endless help, one would have to say a Ho driver exercises far more leadership than they do on a daily basis. It was just another crock.
If you have not got my point yet, it is that too many of you have your expectations too high and are unwilling to band together to solve what you perceive is a problem. You fly because you want to, not for the money.
There, that is my long-term observation rant. Now attack me.
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snaproll20
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snaproll20
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snaproll20
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Snap man you comin on here trying to stir up a bees nest of pilots and piss them off? thats not cool...
As for the kid Flying the HO for much less than the guys drinkin their coffee at flt level 350 well im gonna have to go with clunk on that one they can only get paid in proportion to what their earning....i also agree with clunk in that 200-250 hour pilots with a fresh CPL (like myself) should not work for free because its undercutting everyone and weeding out the pilots that arent fortunate enough to live off their parents till their 40 years old...and im damn sure that im gonna seek out a fair employer and demand that i get paid at least a fair market wage for what i do and the resposibilites that come with my job.....Ive worked hard getting where i am...i always have worked hard and i will continue to work hard for an employer that is willing to pay me a fair wage and treat me with respect and help me learn and gain experience through their company....that being said i know that employers cant pay to much these days because of all the undercutting that is going on so as long as my employer is being honest and paying decent in comparison i will remain loyal and work my ass off...as for the pilots in AC getting paid $200,000 a year for working minimal hours...ever heard of work hard now and take it easy later? well that AC pilot was prob the kid getting paid less than the fueler to fly the HO up north back in the day (although it was easier back then to get to that position im sure he still worked hard)....so with that said i respect the AC pilots because they have done their time...and you dont think they can fly the plane and just push buttons? i highly doubt that ive talked to many and they seem to know their stuff
Just a side note....as for you Clunk if your an employer that pays your pilots well...good on you
there needs to be more people like you who arent out just for themselves but are out to help the industry get back on its feet and help pay pilots for what their worth and what they have had to sacrifice to get where they are...
As for the kid Flying the HO for much less than the guys drinkin their coffee at flt level 350 well im gonna have to go with clunk on that one they can only get paid in proportion to what their earning....i also agree with clunk in that 200-250 hour pilots with a fresh CPL (like myself) should not work for free because its undercutting everyone and weeding out the pilots that arent fortunate enough to live off their parents till their 40 years old...and im damn sure that im gonna seek out a fair employer and demand that i get paid at least a fair market wage for what i do and the resposibilites that come with my job.....Ive worked hard getting where i am...i always have worked hard and i will continue to work hard for an employer that is willing to pay me a fair wage and treat me with respect and help me learn and gain experience through their company....that being said i know that employers cant pay to much these days because of all the undercutting that is going on so as long as my employer is being honest and paying decent in comparison i will remain loyal and work my ass off...as for the pilots in AC getting paid $200,000 a year for working minimal hours...ever heard of work hard now and take it easy later? well that AC pilot was prob the kid getting paid less than the fueler to fly the HO up north back in the day (although it was easier back then to get to that position im sure he still worked hard)....so with that said i respect the AC pilots because they have done their time...and you dont think they can fly the plane and just push buttons? i highly doubt that ive talked to many and they seem to know their stuff
Just a side note....as for you Clunk if your an employer that pays your pilots well...good on you
there needs to be more people like you who arent out just for themselves but are out to help the industry get back on its feet and help pay pilots for what their worth and what they have had to sacrifice to get where they are... Snap, got your ears on? come back dude. I want to find out where you get such a bogus load of crap and misinformation, what your background is, whether you fly at all, and what your aspirations might be if you are a professional pilot.
When you do get around to it, what position makes $200G's, and how much do you believe that pilot might fly? What qualification are you talking about when you mention the phone in? How long to you think that a $200G pa pilot might have been around? What do you believe is a reasonable wage for a pilot? Average over a 35 or 40 year career, what would an average pilot earn do you think, and at what point should he break even to point where he might get ahead to a point where he might make the same as a plumber, for example?
When you do get around to it, what position makes $200G's, and how much do you believe that pilot might fly? What qualification are you talking about when you mention the phone in? How long to you think that a $200G pa pilot might have been around? What do you believe is a reasonable wage for a pilot? Average over a 35 or 40 year career, what would an average pilot earn do you think, and at what point should he break even to point where he might get ahead to a point where he might make the same as a plumber, for example?
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snaproll20
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- Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:50 pm
Some interesting points.
Balls. You try to examine what financial reward is pertinent for being a pilot. You will never make as much money as a plumber. They are not limited to 1200 hrs per annum. They can probably do 3000 without breaking a sweat.
Clunk is right, a percentage allotment for the pilots out of revenue is smaller for a Ho than heavy iron.
Perhaps the bottom line IS that pilots should stop screwing each other. The problem really lies with the fact that employers always try to pay as little as possible, whether it is honestly all they have to part with, or merely because they are people-users and would like to screw you so they can get rich. Guess what? It is the same even for plumbers.
The bottom, bottom line is that the employers compete in narrow markets constantly and screw each other 's profits to the point they look for financial relief and labour costs are always the most obvious.
Again, Clunk is right, when we had protected territories back in the old days, companies did reasonably well. Open skies is death to salaries because there will be more flies around one piece of s**t.
How do I come to this misguided and beyond-belief opinion?
Over 40 years in the industry, a few flight hours and a lot of being screwed.
Balls. You try to examine what financial reward is pertinent for being a pilot. You will never make as much money as a plumber. They are not limited to 1200 hrs per annum. They can probably do 3000 without breaking a sweat.
Clunk is right, a percentage allotment for the pilots out of revenue is smaller for a Ho than heavy iron.
Perhaps the bottom line IS that pilots should stop screwing each other. The problem really lies with the fact that employers always try to pay as little as possible, whether it is honestly all they have to part with, or merely because they are people-users and would like to screw you so they can get rich. Guess what? It is the same even for plumbers.
The bottom, bottom line is that the employers compete in narrow markets constantly and screw each other 's profits to the point they look for financial relief and labour costs are always the most obvious.
Again, Clunk is right, when we had protected territories back in the old days, companies did reasonably well. Open skies is death to salaries because there will be more flies around one piece of s**t.
How do I come to this misguided and beyond-belief opinion?
Over 40 years in the industry, a few flight hours and a lot of being screwed.
personally think that at 200,000 a year, you are still underpayed. You are in control of a 150 million plus machine, carrying 400 passengers and every time that plane touches down safely, you hvae saved 400 lives. Compare that to a doctor, does one surgery, saves a life and makes similar or, probably, more.
Last edited by joe to go on Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Comparing a pilot to a Dr. is ludicrious, a lot of pilots who I have flown with wouldn't get pass the first week in med school.
A pilot is a driver of a machine, no more, no less.
Now if you really want to complain about a job that should pay more it's us poor unfortunate mechanics, unlike pilots we have to know something about the machine to fix it.
Cat
A pilot is a driver of a machine, no more, no less.
Now if you really want to complain about a job that should pay more it's us poor unfortunate mechanics, unlike pilots we have to know something about the machine to fix it.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
