Air Canada Pool

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
Squid
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 330
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:35 pm
Location: Timmins

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Squid »

Obviously not much for efficiency yet at rouge but as the schedule rolls in we will get more and more efficient with some nice utilization and nice layovers. No regrets. C'mon over!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Buzz Lightyear
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:05 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Buzz Lightyear »

Skyhunter wrote:YYCFLYGUY

Lower pay, but way better schedule... and well worth the trade off...... Quite happy with the Rouge conditions. I could be reserve FO on 320..... (was for a bit) and work 18 days.... or 10-11 at Rouge for 300 bucks a month less take home. OH... and a fair share bid.... To me well worth the 300$ less in take home, and yes that is not counting any overtime.

Are the 10-11 days of work you mention on the 319 or the 767?

Thanks
---------- ADS -----------
 
Born to fly, forced to work
DBC
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:29 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by DBC »

10-11 days will be the 319 for sure.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Buzz Lightyear
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:05 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Buzz Lightyear »

Would the 767 be more since you're away from home on layovers? How many days are we talking about?

Thanks
---------- ADS -----------
 
Born to fly, forced to work
DBC
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:29 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by DBC »

Plan 16 during summer, 10-12 in winter for now on the 767.
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2786
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by yycflyguy »

Skyhunter wrote:YYCFLYGUY

Lower pay, but way better schedule... and well worth the trade off...... Quite happy with the Rouge conditions. I could be reserve FO on 320..... (was for a bit) and work 18 days.... or 10-11 at Rouge for 300 bucks a month less take home. OH... and a fair share bid.... To me well worth the 300$ less in take home, and yes that is not counting any overtime.

And the 87's arriving will mean an increase in ACPA pilots... just cause you don't want to count them cause they won't be "mainline"... those 67's will go to Rouge and be flown by ACPA pilots.... which means more hiring.
Oh dear.

You do realize that, although you are happy at rouge, this FOS structure has cost the pilot group millions of dollars and limited your career earnings potential?

When you state that the difference is $300 less at rouge did you account for the perdiems? Yes, I know they are not salary but it makes a difference of around $4500-$5500 (tax free) per annum comparing mainline A320 to rouge L319 as they are mostly turns with zero per diem.

You plan to make up any shortfalls with overtime? What about low DBM months?

The 787s do NOT mean an increase in ACPA pilots. It is a transfer of B767 to rouge for lower pay and replacing mainline B767 with comparably paying B787s. You haven't mentioned the loss of higher paying A319s from the mainline to rouge or the loss of the E175s. Look at the fleet plan over the next couple of years. Couple that with the abolition of mandatory retirement and you can expect to be in the same seat you are in today for at least 2.5 years.

When you have been at rouge for a couple of years and you get forced to work xmas when your seniority at mainline would have allowed you to bid it off will you be so happy with the schedule? Socialized bidding is only a benefit to junior positions.

Glad it is working out for you but your rouge views are rather myopic.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lawndart
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:47 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by lawndart »

Not to let facts cloud a good argument but...

1) "Low DBM" months at rouge are still paid 77.5 hours.

2) Any day off you come in to work is paid a minimum of 4.5 hours, 1.5 time on top of your 77.5 min guarantee. So if you are blocked at 25 hours, you come in to do an Orlando turn on a day off, you get paid for (roughly) 86 hours at your hourly rate. Also get an extra 4.5 hours of pay if that turn gets in late and you end up rolling over 0200.

I am not a fan of the FOS set-up at all, but for people trying to make choices about their life for the next few years, facts can be useful.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TheStig
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 871
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by TheStig »

lawndart wrote:Not to let facts cloud a good argument but...

1) "Low DBM" months at rouge are still paid 77.5 hours.

2) Any day off you come in to work is paid a minimum of 4.5 hours, 1.5 time on top of your 77.5 min guarantee. So if you are blocked at 25 hours, you come in to do an Orlando turn on a day off, you get paid for (roughly) 86 hours at your hourly rate. Also get an extra 4.5 hours of pay if that turn gets in late and you end up rolling over 0200.

I am not a fan of the FOS set-up at all, but for people trying to make choices about their life for the next few years, facts can be useful.
Close, but not quite.

Minimum pay is 77.5, the 1.5 kicks in on blocked time/growth over 82.5, overtime volunteered for is straight time, double time for draft. You'll only collect that extra 4.5 if you arrive after 0200 on a day you were planned to be off.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lawndart
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:47 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by lawndart »

Stig:

Learning all sorts of things here. They changed a bunch of stuff last year, and one of them is time and a half for open time awards (steps 1-2): 74.10.01.01 says time and half.

Good to know about the scheduled day off though.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TheStig
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 871
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by TheStig »

lawndart wrote:Stig:

Learning all sorts of things here. They changed a bunch of stuff last year, and one of them is time and a half for open time awards (steps 1-2): 74.10.01.01 says time and half.

Good to know about the scheduled day off though.
Thanks, that's good to know as well. Just read through the amendments, you're right, and it is a big improvement.
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2786
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by yycflyguy »

lawndart wrote:Not to let facts cloud a good argument but...

1) "Low DBM" months at rouge are still paid 77.5 hours.
Exactly. So how do you plan for overtime?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Skyhunter
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:15 am
Location: Near YOW

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Skyhunter »

yycflyguy wrote:
Skyhunter wrote:YYCFLYGUY

Lower pay, but way better schedule... and well worth the trade off...... Quite happy with the Rouge conditions. I could be reserve FO on 320..... (was for a bit) and work 18 days.... or 10-11 at Rouge for 300 bucks a month less take home. OH... and a fair share bid.... To me well worth the 300$ less in take home, and yes that is not counting any overtime.

And the 87's arriving will mean an increase in ACPA pilots... just cause you don't want to count them cause they won't be "mainline"... those 67's will go to Rouge and be flown by ACPA pilots.... which means more hiring.
Oh dear.

You do realize that, although you are happy at rouge, this FOS structure has cost the pilot group millions of dollars and limited your career earnings potential?

When you state that the difference is $300 less at rouge did you account for the perdiems? Yes, I know they are not salary but it makes a difference of around $4500-$5500 (tax free) per annum comparing mainline A320 to rouge L319 as they are mostly turns with zero per diem.

You plan to make up any shortfalls with overtime? What about low DBM months?

The 787s do NOT mean an increase in ACPA pilots. It is a transfer of B767 to rouge for lower pay and replacing mainline B767 with comparably paying B787s. You haven't mentioned the loss of higher paying A319s from the mainline to rouge or the loss of the E175s. Look at the fleet plan over the next couple of years. Couple that with the abolition of mandatory retirement and you can expect to be in the same seat you are in today for at least 2.5 years.

When you have been at rouge for a couple of years and you get forced to work xmas when your seniority at mainline would have allowed you to bid it off will you be so happy with the schedule? Socialized bidding is only a benefit to junior positions.

Glad it is working out for you but your rouge views are rather myopic.
YYC,

Coming from a 21 year career, where time off was based on fair share, and the good schedule based on merit, not when your date of hire might have been, I choose to come to AC because I new rouge would have a fair share bid. Seniority system... top 20% get exactly what the want next 60% get a bit of what they want bottom 20% get screwed. Fair share... 100% get 80% of what they want all the time. I worked alert half of my Christmas's on sqn, and didn't complain, even volunteered for some so some "junior guys" could be with there young kids and mine were older so not important. I bid to work Christmas this year so i could have lots of time off in a row at start of month. If I want to save up all my points to have Christmas, I can, just not worth it to me. It is to others, and they get to have it off. I think you will find a lot of new hires, are of a different point of view, that seniority shouldn't trump everything. I get that seniority has to count for something, but personally think it is to extreme at AC. I bet I am not alone. As I said to one Capt I flew with a while back, some of the very senior guys have lost touch with reality a bit with how good they have it and don't care at all what the bottom 20% get. Goes for both salary and sched. I would gladly commit to working a fair share system the rest of my career. Why, because it is fair and pretty good for for all of it, not just awesome in the last couple years.

I have a pretty good guess at what I will be making 20 years from now when I retire the second time, and am pretty happy with that amount.

You might not be happy with the Rouge set up, and you are allowed not to be. I and some of the other guys are, and we are allowed to be happy with it. I plan on making sure the union knows we are happy with it, just as I am sure you are letting them know you are not.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Johnny#5
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 6:04 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Johnny#5 »

..
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Johnny#5 on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
bcflyer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1357
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Canada

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by bcflyer »

I don't have a problem with socialized bidding. What I do have a problem with is flying the same planes on the same routes for less money.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Buzz Lightyear
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:05 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Buzz Lightyear »

Hi all,

How does it work if you want to transfer to mainline a few years down the path? At what level of the mainline payscale do you start?

I've heard from an AC line pilot that you start at year 1 which to me doesn't make any sense.

Can anyone confirm this?

Cheers
---------- ADS -----------
 
Born to fly, forced to work
snag
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:00 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by snag »

How does it work if you want to transfer to mainline a few years down the path? At what level of the mainline payscale do you start?

I've heard from an AC line pilot that you start at year 1 which to me doesn't make any sense.

Can anyone confirm this?
Years of service carry over in almost all cases. The only exception is when going from mainline to rouge captain. Here you are only credited previous years of service as captain.

For example if a 10 year 767 F/O, with over 1 year of that as EMJ Capt goes to Rouge 767 Capt, he goes into the 2nd year scale only. If he went to rouge as F/O, then he would continue on 10th year pay. In either case, if he worked for 2 more years at rouge, then returned to any position at mainline, he would now be in 12th year pay.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Buzz Lightyear
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 309
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:05 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Buzz Lightyear »

THis makes more sense.

Thanks Snag!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Born to fly, forced to work
SgtStroka
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:27 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by SgtStroka »

I was in Miami twice in the last couple weeks and noticed at the AAR hangar there were two 767s. I read they do heavy maintenance, mods and such. Any chance that is where they are doing the paint, seats for rouge?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DBC
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:29 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by DBC »

Were they rouge or mainline planes? as far as I know we are just getting heavy checks done down in Miami.
---------- ADS -----------
 
SgtStroka
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:27 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by SgtStroka »

Well your right, they were in AC colours. Just was curious to see two of them down there. Had to ask, thanks!
---------- ADS -----------
 
C208
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:30 am

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by C208 »

Has the bid coded yet? Im not really keen on how it works so Ill try not to act like it. But, does it come out then a week or two later some numbers are better predicted?

Also, the new news about GGN and AC, can that affect things with future hiring?

8
---------- ADS -----------
 
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

My prediction

Jazz RJ tails go to Georgian and AC EMB 90 tails go to Jazz to make up for the lost seats as required to make JAZZ contractual CPA minimums. Combined AC and Rouge pilot requirements are steadily reduced in favour of out sourced cheaper providers.

I hope I am wrong........
---------- ADS -----------
 
TheStig
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 871
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by TheStig »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:My prediction

Jazz RJ tails go to Georgian and AC EMB 90 tails go to Jazz to make up for the lost seats as required to make JAZZ contractual CPA minimums. Combined AC and Rouge pilot requirements are steadily reduced in favour of out sourced cheaper providers.

I hope I am wrong........
You are, scope language prevents anyone else from flying the E190's. Say what you want about ACPA they have always been aggressive about protecting scope. The industry standard for Tier 2 carriers right now in North America is 75 seat jets, what are the odds ACPA is simply going to change the standard to 100 seats without any other carrier doing so?…While under contract?

Jazz is flying about 10% more than the CPA specified minimum block hour guarantee, the flying GGN will be doing will come out of those excess hours. This clearly isn't the end game as CRJ100/200's are quickly disappearing from regional fleets in favour of larger RJ's and turbo props, but rather a means for AC to diversify its Tier 2 providers, and in the shorter-term reduce AC's cost of flying a relatively few RJ's.
---------- ADS -----------
 
mbav8r
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2325
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Manitoba

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by mbav8r »

TheStig,
I think you are wrong, call me naïve or whatever you will but I believe CR's next target is your precious scope. I hope and I truly mean this, you are willing to walk off the job to protect it! Not that it'll matter with the current government.
I believe the GGN AC relationship will expand to cover all 50 seat and under flying, while Jazz will be in the 76 seat market strictly or possibly up to the 100 seat market.
There is plenty of information out there regarding the Jazz CASM vs a reduction of block hours and there is also room is the ASM ratio to give GGN this flying without a reduction to Jazz. CHR and AC are no doubt in discussions right now on a way to reduce the CASM, while both come out looking good to the BOD.
Also, CR was named CEO of the year, imagine how he'll be viewed by his peers if he is the first CEO in North America to have mainline scope of 100 seats or 130 for that matter.
We need to get together now but it may already be too late.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Fanblade
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1772
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: Air Canada Pool

Post by Fanblade »

mbav8r wrote:TheStig,
I think you are wrong, call me naïve or whatever you will but I believe CR's next target is your precious scope. I hope and I truly mean this, you are willing to walk off the job to protect it! Not that it'll matter with the current government.
I believe the GGN AC relationship will expand to cover all 50 seat and under flying, while Jazz will be in the 76 seat market strictly or possibly up to the 100 seat market.
There is plenty of information out there regarding the Jazz CASM vs a reduction of block hours and there is also room is the ASM ratio to give GGN this flying without a reduction to Jazz. CHR and AC are no doubt in discussions right now on a way to reduce the CASM, while both come out looking good to the BOD.
Also, CR was named CEO of the year, imagine how he'll be viewed by his peers if he is the first CEO in North America to have mainline scope of 100 seats or 130 for that matter.
We need to get together now but it may already be too late.
Calin had a free ticket to do as he pleased 15 months ago. He messed around with scope quite a bit but he didn't touch the 76 seat limit. You should ask yourself why. They have had a regional diversification strategy for a few years now, well before APCA's last contract negotiations even began. They didnt attack the 76 seat limit because it wasnt part of the regional strategy.

This is of course obvious to Chorus. It is also becoming increasingly obvious based on JR's comments that Chorus is trying to convince AC to change strategies with the concept of 190's at Jazz. Its a sales pitch. One that is very late to the game at that.

Almost all carriers are moving away from sub 320/737-7 size aircraft. Upgauging aircraft and lowering frequency. It is why the cseries/736/318 is not selling. No one will be flying the 190 unless they can't off load them.

What has a lower CASM SR/GA in a 705 or Jazz in a 190? Lowest will win. Why would AC bite on the concept if SR/GA are cheaper? How far are you willing to go to make it worth AC's while. If AC wrestled the 190 from ACPA why would it go to Jazz and not SR/GA/Skywest? What are you going to do when JR comes back and tells you he thinks he might have a deal, but AC is demanding another 10% reduction in CASM to make it work?

This is why ACPA would be absolutely stupid to let a 190 size aircraft go to a CPA. If not today it would eventually go out to tender to the lowest bidder. The whole point of competitive tender is to squeeze costs to the lowest threashold possible. It is the key ingrediant in AC's regional diversification strategy.

There are 29 76 seat jets up for grabs. They will go to those who squeeze the hardest. Its too late for the Jazz and AC pilots to get together. You now need GA and SR as well or its pointless. Even then then the benefit is questionable. As you can see, in this instance it is not a pilot group going after ACPA work but rather a corperation.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”