Air Georgian

[stopbar]

" It is easy to sit fat, dumb and happy from a decent paying position with an air carrier and yell down in the megaphone to the industry neophytes to stop accepting these jobs at these wages. People can't afford not to work!"

You know nothing of my personal situation so do not make such remarks and slew the discussion to attack the poster.

"The wages at Georgian, CMA, Pasco, West Wind etc... are livable wages. By that I mean you can afford to pay rent, student loans, taxes, and feed yourself."

$27000 a year( not to mention the $10000 Bond )and you have to live in Calgary for your first year then maybe able to transfer to Toronto. Good luck being able to pay off those loans living in those cities. 14 hour duty days and then additional duties cause you are told to by the company are things people should know about before they apply.PS don't muddy the waters by including other companies in this discussion.

"Surely taking such a job, gaining experience and moving forward to the better end of your career is better than sitting in the unemployment line complaining that the golden years of the industry passed by before you were even born. The state of the industry is nothing new, and if you don't like it, perhaps some research should have been done before you decided this was the career for you."

Did lots of research before I started and knew what I was getting into.

"So Stopbar, I'll ask again. If I were working as an instructor, or a 703 operator making less than 25K a year and I was looking to apply at a 704 with the aim of eventually advancing to 705, what companies do you suggest I apply to that would not offend your opinion of the state of this industry?"

Simple, as others have stated do your research on the companies you want to work at and make your decisions wisely and live with them. As for not responding right away I chose not to because of the way you responded to my post by attacking me personally without knowing anything about me or my background. Plus I don't spend a lot of time on the forums as I have a busy schedule. PS that last remark in no way is intended as an attack on you or anybody else

[flying4dollars]

" It is easy to sit for , dumb and happy from a decent paying position with an air carrier and yell down in the megaphone to the industry neophytes to stop accepting these jobs at these wages. People can't afford not to work!"

You know nothing of my personal situation so do not make such remarks and slew the discussion to attack the poster.

"The wages at Georgian, CMA, Pasco, West Wind etc... are livable wages. By that I mean you can afford to pay rent, student loans, taxes, and feed yourself."

$27000 a year( not to mention the $10000 Bond )and you have to live in Calgary for your first year then maybe able to transfer to Toronto. Good luck being able to pay off those loans living in those cities. 14 hour duty days and then additional duties cause you are told to by the company are things people should know about before they apply.PS don't muddy the waters by including other companies in this discussion.

"Surely taking such a job, gaining experience and moving forward to the better end of your career is better than sitting in the unemployment line complaining that the golden years of the industry passed by before you were even born. The state of the industry is nothing new, and if you don't like it, perhaps some research should have been done before you decided this was the career for you."

Did lots of research before I started and knew what I was getting into.

"So Stopbar, I'll ask again. If I were working as an instructor, or a 703 operator making less than 25K a year and I was looking to apply at a 704 with the aim of eventually advancing to 705, what companies do you suggest I apply to that would not offend your opinion of the state of this industry?"

Simple, as others have stated do your research on the companies you want to work at and make your decisions wisely and live with them. As for not responding right away I chose not to because of the way you responded to my post by attacking me personally without knowing anything about me or my background. Plus I don't spend a lot of time on the forums as I have a busy schedule. PS that last remark in no way is intended as an attack on you or anybody else

FYI not everyone wants to live in yyz. Those that came to Georgian up until a month or two ago knew they would be based in yyc or yhz until they are able to hold yyz if that's what their goal was. So coming in, people knew what they were getting into. Is the pay for fo's spectacular? No..but guys seem to be making work. Also living in Calgary is significantly cheaper than yyz. Coming from yvr, which is even more expensive than yyz, I have saved quite a bit living in yyc. That includes going to NHL games.

Ps, the salary for fos is a bit more than 27k and the bond does not come out of pocket, as your tone suggests. I haven't done many 14 hour days in my 2 years here. My last 2 flying jobs were much more exhausting and days off were subject to change. The pairings here have a lot of down time factored in. Just today I had a 4.5 hour break and I went home. Had lunch, and took a nap. Things aren't as bad as some people make it look. That's just my perspective.

[Krimson]

Consider yourself a minority.

From the first hand stories I hear, it is a gongshow.

[flying4dollars]

Consider yourself a minority.

From the first hand stories I hear, it is a gongshow.

Well its all dependant on the person, their background and their expectations here. While maybe not perfect, it's been more a positive experience than a negative one. I actually have a life, and financially I do just fine. When the time is right, I will move on to where I want to spend the rest of my career.

There are far worse places to work in this industry, and although the pay may be significantly better at some of them, the life style isn't always the same. The experience at any company is in the eye of the beholder. It's easy to focus on the bad at any company, but no one seems to look at the good; there are some very good upsides to being here vs other 704 and 705 companies.

[mbav8r]

flying4dollars
FYI not everyone wants to live in yyz. Those that came to Georgian up until a month or two ago knew they would be based in yyc or yhz until they are able to hold yyz if that's what their goal was. So coming in, people knew what they were getting into. Is the pay for fo's spectacular? No..but guys seem to be making work. Also living in Calgary is significantly cheaper than yyz. Coming from yvr, which is even more expensive than yyz, I have saved quite a bit living in yyc. That includes going to NHL games.

http://www.calgary.ca/CS/OLSH/Pages/Cal ... r-CHC.aspx
The current 2013 Core Need Income Threshold (CNIT) rates for the City of Calgary are:


1 Bedroom $39,000
2 Bedrooms $48,000
3 Bedrooms $53,000
4 Bedrooms $57,500
5 Bedrooms $60,500
http://www.torontohousing.ca/rent_toron ... ty_housing

Type of unit Sample monthly rental rates x 12 months x 4 = Maximum household annual gross income


Bachelor $822 x 12 months x 4 = $39,456


1-bedroom $979 x 12 months x 4 = $46,992


2-bedroom $1,161 x 12 months x 4 = $55,728

I'm not sure if you're renting a cardboard box or someone's backyard yard shed but stats don't lie and it seems they're equally expensive, as long as you get to some NHL games though everything is A OK!

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Well looks like an Air Canada new hire will be living in the box next to you for four years....but he will have 5000-10000 hours in the logbook!

[flying4dollars]

flying4dollars
FYI not everyone wants to live in yyz. Those that came to Georgian up until a month or two ago knew they would be based in yyc or yhz until they are able to hold yyz if that's what their goal was. So coming in, people knew what they were getting into. Is the pay for fo's spectacular? No..but guys seem to be making work. Also living in Calgary is significantly cheaper than yyz. Coming from yvr, which is even more expensive than yyz, I have saved quite a bit living in yyc. That includes going to NHL games.

http://www.calgary.ca/CS/OLSH/Pages/Cal ... r-CHC.aspx
The current 2013 Core Need Income Threshold (CNIT) rates for the City of Calgary are:


1 Bedroom $39,000
2 Bedrooms $48,000
3 Bedrooms $53,000
4 Bedrooms $57,500
5 Bedrooms $60,500
http://www.torontohousing.ca/rent_toron ... ty_housing

Type of unit Sample monthly rental rates x 12 months x 4 = Maximum household annual gross income


Bachelor $822 x 12 months x 4 = $39,456


1-bedroom $979 x 12 months x 4 = $46,992


2-bedroom $1,161 x 12 months x 4 = $55,728

I'm not sure if you're renting a cardboard box or someone's backyard yard shed but stats don't lie and it seems they're equally expensive, as long as you get to some NHL games though everything is A OK!

I rent a furnished house with a friend, I pay rent, bills and my monthly car payment, all while decreasing my debt, and saving money for a house and retirement. And yes, at the end of it all, I can still afford that nhl game. Not everyone manages their money the same way and not everyone's lifestyle is the same. I make it work just fine on a captain salary. Fo's here aren't on the fo payscale very long. And by that I mean 1 year at most. Again, it's not an ideal salary, but people make it work.

[mbav8r]

Justify it how you want, that was the starting wage almost 20 years ago, when I bought a 3000 sq' house for 63,000.00

[flying4dollars]

I don't need to justify anything to anyone. I'm simply showing other readers that the salary, and I repeat while not great, is still manageable. If you cant make it work, it's up to you to find employment at a place that will offer the salary that you require to live the way you do.

I think sometimes people forget that at least here at Georgian, this company isn't built to be a career job, but a stepping stone, and such the pay reflects that. Personally, I would certainly need to earn more in the near future to support a family, but then again in the near future I also plan to be somewhere else.

[Inverted2]

I don't need to justify anything to anyone. I'm simply showing other readers that the salary, and I repeat while not great, is still manageable. If you cant make it work, it's up to you to find employment at a place that will offer the salary that you require to live the way you do.

I think sometimes people forget that at least here at Georgian, this company isn't built to be a career job, but a stepping stone, and such the pay reflects that. Personally, I would certainly need to earn more in the near future to support a family, but then again in the near future I also plan to be somewhere else.

You should change your username and avatar to "flying4peanuts"

[rudder]

I think sometimes people forget that at least here at Georgian, this company isn't built to be a career job, but a stepping stone, and such the pay reflects that. Personally, I would certainly need to earn more in the near future to support a family, but then again in the near future I also plan to be somewhere else.

Georgian is fast becoming an anchor on the rest of the profession. We build from the bottom up not from the top down. Others before you did so and as a result when you leave Georgian there will be a better job waiting for you. Attitudes like yours are the cancer of the profession.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Lots of critics, but still no answer as to where else he should work!
You think a pilot working at AC making $40 grand for four years isn't contributing to the decline of the "profession"?
Give the guy a break!

[PositiveRate27]

Lots of critics, but still no answer as to where else he should work!
You think a pilot working at AC making $40 grand for four years isn't contributing to the decline of the "profession"?
Give the guy a break!

[flying4dollars]

I think sometimes people forget that at least here at Georgian, this company isn't built to be a career job, but a stepping stone, and such the pay reflects that. Personally, I would certainly need to earn more in the near future to support a family, but then again in the near future I also plan to be somewhere else.

Attitudes like yours are the cancer of the profession.

.....riiiiight..

Do you even know me? Didn't think so. You know nothing of my 'attitude' in this industry

[mbav8r]

Johnnyhotrocks, you are spreading false information, year 1 at AC is aprox 46,800 plus benefits etc.
Year 2 is 51,300, year 3 is 59,400, year 4 is 66,600 and these numbers are based on 75 credit hours not 100, so yes that would be a better option. Not to worry though at the rate we're going won't be long before 40g for four years is the truth.
Flyingfordollars,
It says a lot about you that you come here and try to justify your actions, you're a Captain and you have to have a roommate to be able to pay your debt and go to the occasional hockey game, you're probably eating real kraft dinner though not that generic stuff I hope.
Also, presently Jazz would be considered a career job, but because of attitudes like yours, yes justifying GGN wages because it's not a career job is part of your attitude, you flying an RJ for less than they pay King Air captains is a big reason why some jackass will be saying the new Jazz wages are ok because it's NOT a career job!

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Thanks for correcting my numbers. You figures, however, are still nothing to be proud of considering the experience level of your average AC new hire.....they must do it with the dream that someday the will be making the big bucks....not much different than the justification given by a 1500hr FO at Georgian

[Inverted2]

No, those figures aren't anything to be proud of at AC, but at least you're in the door and will make a decent living there after a few years. What GGN is doing is going to destroy the livelyhoods of hundreds of Jazz pilots who including me make a pretty good salary.

If we all said no to these crap wages the planes would sit idle on the ground and these lowball companies would have to up the wages.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

If we all said no to these crap wages the planes would sit idle on the ground and these lowball companies would have to up the wages.

That is true but it will NEVER happen. No sane pilot would ever leave aviation and sit on the sidelines waiting for the mythical pilot shortage. Life doesn't work that way. It is easy to tell people that is what they should do when you have a pretty good gig at Jazz, AC or wherever.

[flying4dollars]

Johnnyhotrocks, you are spreading false information, year 1 at AC is aprox 46,800 plus benefits etc.
Year 2 is 51,300, year 3 is 59,400, year 4 is 66,600 and these numbers are based on 75 credit hours not 100, so yes that would be a better option. Not to worry though at the rate we're going won't be long before 40g for four years is the truth.
Flyingfordollars,
It says a lot about you that you come here and try to justify your actions, you're a Captain and you have to have a roommate to be able to pay your debt and go to the occasional hockey game, you're probably eating real kraft dinner though not that generic stuff I hope.
Also, presently Jazz would be considered a career job, but because of attitudes like yours, yes justifying GGN wages because it's not a career job is part of your attitude, you flying an RJ for less than they pay King Air captains is a big reason why some jackass will be saying the new Jazz wages are ok because it's NOT a career job!

Ahhh you got me! This week I was able to afford hot dogs to toss into my kd. It was a good week

[AirMail]

It'll be a good laugh in 5 yrs to see these green Georgian pilots attitudes change to a complete opposite.

I don't need to justify anything to anyone. I'm simply showing other readers that the salary, and I repeat while not great, is still manageable. If you cant make it work, it's up to you to find employment at a place that will offer the salary that you require to live the way you do.

I think sometimes people forget that at least here at Georgian, this company isn't built to be a career job, but a stepping stone, and such the pay reflects that. Personally, I would certainly need to earn more in the near future to support a family, but then again in the near future I also plan to be somewhere else.

You should change your username and avatar to "flying4peanuts"

This is an avatar you greenies should put on your profile for all time so that you may remember your pro-prostitution days.

Georgian has been a forever stepping stone company. The pay I don't think has ever gone up over all those years. How a union hasn't propped up there is beyond me. It's easy to say NO to shit pay jobs, I have 4 times in my career, and I benefitted when a better and better paying job came shortly there after. Why make yourself suffer to make ends meet, and be a laughing stock of the industry?

[Masters Off]

There is a union at GGN. The union in question, OREA, represented GGN employees during current negotiations of their 5th agreement.
Within the negotiations, employees shot down an initial proposal by management to the potential 705 wages. Later in negotiation, the 705 wages were removed completely, so that employees had no imput on the subject. Once the CBA was passed, OREA, on behalf, but not in consultation with employees, signed an LOU with management to allow 705 flying to be completed at specific rates, and for the terms to be worked out at a later date.
Arguably you can't say the guys didn't defend better wages, they did shoot down low wages with one thing they had the power to do: vote.
Can't say everyone was drinking the kool-aid, not with all the grumblings buddies have done during those negotiations...

[Koalemos]

I have had this conversation with a GGN captain, so the information is accurate.

During the latest negotiation (masters Off refered to it), the GGN pilots voted down a contract that included a new, C scale wages for new hires that included lower wages and less time off. They did this despite it costing them a pay raise and a signing bonus. They also voted down the contract as the 705 section had WAWCON they did not agree with, as it was too low. It was added in later as an LOU without their input.

The GGN pilots did what they could to not contribute to the race to the bottom, while still paying their bills and feeding their kids. So to those who blame them directly, you need stop talking when you don't have complete information. Dumping on one pilot group for the actions of management, and in reality the nature of the entire industry, is childish and small-minded.

The CRJ contract was setup, and dictated, by GGN management. The pilots have had zero say in the process.

[rudder]

http://www.cirb-ccri.gc.ca/eic/site/047 ... 00109.html

[AirMail]

My mistake then, thanks Masters Off and Koalemos

[Diadem]

With regards to taking low-paying jobs, in some cases working for GGN may be a step up. When I was instructing I was making an hourly rate roughly 2.5 times the minimum wage, and if I'd had enough students I could easily have lived on that alone. However, students were scarce, and I was lucky if I flew more than a couple of hours a week; in the year that I worked there I made less than $10000. That had nothing to do with the employer, it was simply the reality of trying to get people to shell out for the expense of flying during the worst part of the recession. I had to work another job practically full-time just to pay my living expenses in a city not renowned for being cheap, and I still made significantly less than GGN pays. To go there would have been a huge step up in income and flying hours, not to mention only having to work about half as much each week doing so. Not all of us have the skills or extra money to be able to wait around until something better comes along or train for another job, particularly after having used every available dollar for post-secondary education getting our licences.
There's also another factor to consider, which is lifestyle. "Chase lifestyle" is repeated ad nauseum on this forum, and I'm sure some of the people who got to GGN are willing to take a bit of a pay cut to have a better lifestyle. If they've been living in Norman Wells or Moosonee for a few years and they haven't been able to get down south to see their families in that time they might consider that moving to GGN is an overall improvement. Some people like living in the city too, which may be hard for a lot of you to understand, but having dozens of great restaurants and shops within walking distance is a massive draw for people with a taste for that kind of thing. I, for one, have been trying to find a job back down south so I can be closer to family and have more options for where to get food poisoning than the local truckstop or the hotel's rancid bar; I've been trying to get a position that's an improvement over my current job, but those are in such high demand that I haven't had any luck so far, and eventually I may be willing to take the paycut to have the lifestyle I want. The decision is a lot more complex than "I refuse to accept any position that pays below the industry mean".