Violating Canadian laws and regulations galore - Who cares?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Recently, a number of Sunwing contracted foreign pilots needed to come to Canada to receive their company training, their simulator and their line indoctrination. They needed to start right away if they were to complete their training in time to begin flying on time. The problem was that they had not yet received their LMO from ESDC (the new name of HRSDC) and as a result, did not have work permits from Immigration Canada. SO they were not allowed to work for Sunwing.

Sunwing decided to have them come to Canada anyway. They were branded "students". Members of the EU countries do not need a visa to enter Canada as visitors, but do need one to come in Canada as student, unless the studies are of a duration of under 6 months, in which case, no Student Visa is required.

So all the pilots arrived under the bogus claim that they were in Canada as students to receive Sunwing supplied training.

1) That in itself is a violation of the Immigration and Refugee protection Act and Regulations. Not that its illegal to come to Canada to study, but these "Students" were paid by Sunwing to study. They were brought to Canada at Sunwing expense. They were on Sunwing perdiem. They had hotel rooms paid by Sunwing. They had rental cars paid by Sunwing.

How can they be students? To anyone, that is called remunerated work. And when a foreigner is remunerated by a Canadian company, he needs a Work Permit. Even if that work is to "study".

2) They violated the CARs in several manners. Company check pilots can only check company employees according to Transport Canada. How can these foreign pilots be provided with PPCs and Route checks by Sunwing Check pilots when the foreigners do not have a work permit ? They thus cannot be employees. Yet TC closed its eyes on that requirement and allowed Sunwing check pilots to not only check non-employees in the simulator but allowed Check pilots to provide line Indoctrination and route checks to non-employees.

They violated the security rules as well. You all remember the regulations about access to the cockpit? Only company employees be allowed into the flight deck in flight. How can foreigners who have no Canadian work permit and are thus not employed by Sunwing be allowed into the cockpit for line indoctrination ? Not only is Sunwing in violation of the CARs for allowing this to happen, but every Sunwing Captain who allowed such a foreigner into the flight deck for line indoctrination violated the CARs.

I would just love for Transport Canada to now come to me to tell me about who I allow into my cockpit. I have my reply ready for them.


Hello Transport Canada Enforcement ? Anyone still work there ?

[Morav]

I can't help but cringe when I hear foreign Sunwing pilots screwing up radio calls. It seems like ATC doesn't have much patience with them either.

Edited for my poor command of my android auto correct function and lack of proof reading.

[AsheetMaDraws]

It seems like ATC doesn't have much patients with them either.

I cringe when people can't use the English language properly too.
It's PATIENCE.
I'm sure you've never screwed up a radio call either.

[AuxBatOn]

You can be employed by a companie and be a student. I had a student status bu was employed by the government during that time. The government was also providing be education/training.

[Big Pistons Forever]

You can be employed by a companie and be a student. I had a student status bu was employed by the government during that time. The government was also providing be education/training.

Yes but you were a Canadian Citizen. If the "studying" was part of an exchange posting then you would be covered under the host nations "SOFA"

In a Military context how would you feel if more than half of the pilots flying the CF 18 were sourced from foreign Air Forces but there were no exchange billets for RCAF pilots in those Air Forces ? That would be an exact parallel to what Gilles is complaining about.

[AuxBatOn]

It happens right now. Couple of Brits & French flying our jets.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It happens right now. Couple of Brits & French flying our jets.

If only a "couple of Brits & French" were flying for SunWing I am sure Gilles would not be upset. The fact is until very recently there was a lot more than a couple of foreign pilots.

So I am going to ask the question again. Are you saying you would be happy if more than half of the CF 18 seats had foreign pilots assigned to them and there were no equivalent seats available on their fighters, the exact same situation that Gilles is complaining about ?

Unless you plan to do your 35 and retire as CAS this is not a problem for you. However if you, like the many of your compatriots, want to slide over to airline flying after your 20, this issue will very likely affect you .........

[rudder]

Once again, allegations that Transport Canada, Immigration Canada, the RCMP, and others are asleep at the wheel. Really?

I suspect that all bodies are well aware of what is transpiring and do NOT see any violation of policy, regulation, or law. Clearly, some on this forum disagree.

The Conservatives run a very tightly controlled government. They have made their position clear on most of the matters that were put before them. In some cases, it brought about change (foreign wet lease). In other cases, it has resulted in clarification (TFWP ratio) and in others no remedy (FLVC).

So the choice is whether this matter is political or technical. It appears to me that the answer is political. But don't let that stop those that choose to continue to beat the drum loudly about oversight incompetence. It seems a less effective strategy but I guess if you have no powerful political allies then it is your only option.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Once again, allegations that Transport Canada, Immigration Canada, the RCMP, and others are asleep at the wheel. Really?

........

But don't let that stop those that choose to continue to beat the drum loudly about oversight incompetence. It seems a less effective strategy but I guess if you have no powerful political allies then it is your only option.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=90994&p=849244#p849286

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It happens right now. Couple of Brits & French flying our jets.

In Canada there are very few jobs that by law require that you be a Canadian citizen rather than just a landed Immigrant. One of those is being a Commissioned Officer in the Canadian Forces.

It is also a requirement that to be a pilot in the RCAF, one needs to be a commissioned officer. So RCAF pilot = Canadian Citizen.

There is one way around it: the minister of National Defense can provide a waiver. And this is what was probably provided to the pilots you mention.

[Indanao]

Once again, allegations that Transport Canada, Immigration Canada, the RCMP, and others are asleep at the wheel. Really?

I suspect that all bodies are well aware of what is transpiring and do NOT see any violation of policy, regulation, or law. Clearly, some on this forum disagree.

The Conservatives run a very tightly controlled government. They have made their position clear on most of the matters that were put before them. In some cases, it brought about change ...

Yes, " Really " and it has nothing to do with the present Conservative Government either. This has been going on for generations, and it's past time to straighten some of that corruption out. T.C. Inspectors are violating CARS regularly, it seems, by failing Instructors on Renewal Rides without any Flight Test what-so-ever. Ask Cat Driver, or me.

Any of us who have spent any amount of time in the Public Service Canada can attest to the corruption that goes on there. Nepotism and people being hired in through the back door either without writing entrance exams - or outright failing and being passed anyway - are common. The R.C.M.P....., well let their actions speak for themselves. Same as the shitty police ( oops the City Police ), like the Vancouver cop who sat up on the hood of a police car and shot a man repeatedly who was at least 30ft away and was on his hands and knees. The last shot was to the head and all filmed by a German Tourist. BUT....our process found that crazed asshole not guilty of ANY wrong doing.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Once again, allegations that Transport Canada, Immigration Canada, the RCMP, and others are asleep at the wheel. Really?

I suspect that all bodies are well aware of what is transpiring and do NOT see any violation of policy, regulation, or law. Clearly, some on this forum disagree.

The Conservatives run a very tightly controlled government. They have made their position clear on most of the matters that were put before them. In some cases, it brought about change (foreign wet lease). In other cases, it has resulted in clarification (TFWP ratio) and in others no remedy (FLVC).

So the choice is whether this matter is political or technical. It appears to me that the answer is political. But don't let that stop those that choose to continue to beat the drum loudly about oversight incompetence. It seems a less effective strategy but I guess if you have no powerful political allies then it is your only option.

You work at ALPA don't you ?

[Gino Under]

...so, this Australian guy walks into Buffalo Airways looking for a flying job....and...
...obviously, he got it. Cool.
Did it have anything to do with TV? Possibly. Maybe severe arctic winters are more attractive than a life dunnunda?

Either way, it doesn't matter.
He probably entered Canada legally with all his quals and labour papers in order. Besides, who wants to go to Yellowknife and fly antiquated pieces of junk? I mean, other than low timers who haven't realized this is the jet age. No one's raising a fuss over him anyway. He's only one pilot. Right?
One here, one there. No big deal.

Should all Canadian flying jobs be available to whomever, from wherever, as long as they're licenced, qualified, rated and willing to work AND with no one questioning their use by Canadian operators? Or, no oversight by Transport Canada?

(Still shaking my head in disbelief)
No wonder we have the aviation industry in Canada that we have. Some of you stupid mofo's need to wake up before whatever joke of an airline industry we have is either gone or inaccessible to Canadian pilots.
It's not okay for foreign pilots to be used when we have a sufficient number of capable and suitably qualified pilots right here.

If ever an Eastern European crew with dubious claims of experience holding suspicious licences, like that talented crew from the recent Kazan B737-500 accident, ever managed to convince Sunwing or their employment agency in Europe, they were properly licenced, type rated and experienced...can you imagine if they ever ended up with Sunwing and had a similar prang?

I can tell you, if it were ever to happen, I'm sure there would be plenty of questions and a lot of finger pointing.

I think it's time someone at Sunwing started paying closer attention to what's at stake here.

Gino Under

[Rogerdodger2]

I find it incredibly arrogant of some of the people on this forum to assume that the foreigners at SW are some how unsafe or less capable of operating an aircraft as well as a Canadian. Like some huge disaster is waiting around the corner simply because a pilot from another country is behind the controls. It's ridiculous, get over yourselves. Also, only in North America do we criticize someone for whom English is not their first language. Most of you have never flown in Europe, I can gather that much, or you'd never slam someone for their work on the radio.

[Morav]

I cringe because those aren't Canadians behind the yoke. Why do I have to compete for a Canadian job against someone from a country my family and I left in 1989?

[Gino Under]

Don't blow opinion off as "arrogance". Some of us have actually observed a good number of foreign pilots from a variety of foreign countries and their ability, including lack of ability. Obviously, no one culture or nationality has a monopoly on intelligence or ability but we are left to rely on other criteria. I wouldn't be so bold as to say, nor did I say "foreigners at Sunwing are somehow unsafe or less capable". I did imply that should a foreign pilot evade the nets (screening, testing, Indoc), end up at SW and one day have a prang, even if it were a wet lease aircraft, SW management are going to have some skating to do when questions are asked SHOULD anything like that ever happen. Neither you nor I can guarantee that "huge disaster" will or won't ever happen so, where's the arrogance and who needs to get over whom?

Besides, SW are breaking the laws of the land. It's just that no one in political office has the balls to enforce them.

I've flown in most regions of this world, except Australia. I find the 'cutsie pie' lingo over America and to some degree, Canada, absolutely unprofessional and non-compliant with the issuance of an FCC radio licence. So, I agree with you. It shows poor taste when someone "slams someone for work on the radio". Especially when that ESL someone uses proper R/T.

Gino

[BE20 Driver]

This is a governmental problem. I believe the way to tackle it would be from the perspective of the work permit/HRSDC side of things, rather than the technical licensing. Until there is a Colgan style crash at Sunwing or Canjet using foreign crews, the perceived safety threat is a white elephant.

This particular government does what they like as they openly consider themselves the "natural governing party" for Canadians. They believe that because they now have a majority, they represent the average Canadian. They are getting a little long in the tooth and it is starting to show in how some of the latest scandals are being portrayed in the media and other outlets. With the senate scandal, they supported Mike Duffy because he did a lot of fundraising for the Conservative Party of Canada. That is until he and a couple of his cronies got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. You can see how the government progressively backed away from supporting and defending their cash cows to throwing them under the bus when they became a liability. They did this because there was constant scrutiny and media attention. With the TFW program, they'll keep doing what they believe serves Canadian interests (read the interest of shareholders and corporate lobbyists) until they are embarrassed into changing the program.

This time of year is when most of the media begin their retrospective look at the important stories of the year. I personally don't think we have heard the end of the Senate scandal. Perhaps, a few emails to some reporters and the opposition parties might remind them that this particular issue is also not resolved and from an aviation perspective is just as bad or worse than it was this time last year. It would seem that based on the original post, that there is more irregularities this year with the visa process and continued circumventing of the rules that are in place. We can bitch and moan all we want on AvCanada but if we are the only people who read these posts, neither the government, nor the public will have any desire to change their behaviour. Look how quickly the public reacted and threatened to close their RBC accounts because 30 jobs were off-shored?

If a European can fly an A340 with 700 hours, how come Sunwing and Canjet can't hire off season Canadian pilots with less than 3000 hours? If there are 10000 ATPL pilots in Canada, surely we can come up with 150 people who are at least interested in working seasonally through the winter. Those jobs should be ours to turn down. Worst case, you take kids front he puppy mills and throw them into the jets for the winter. They couldn't go anywhere else with their lack of hours so they'll come back for a few winters and they'd be eager as anything to get into a shiny jet and go somewhere warm for the afternoon. Not my preferred solution but it only took me less time to generate the idea than to apply for an LMO.

Maybe time for a Christmas reminder to all the MP's involved (they've recently shuffled portfolios)?? Better than an email, those with passes - make an appointment with some of the key MP's and jumpseat out to Ottawa to have a face to face chat? Much better than getting an intern to email back a couple of months later.

[Dh8Classic]

This is a governmental problem. I believe the way to tackle it would be from the perspective of the work permit/HRSDC side of things, rather than the technical licensing. Until there is a Colgan style crash at Sunwing or Canjet using foreign crews, the perceived safety threat is a white elephant.

So what will happen if someone is hired at a charter carrier even though they have a murky background and pumps their fuel overboard creating a giant glider? Will you scream for foreigners only allowed.

Let's drop the safety issue lie. It does not exist, even if there is a one-off incident.

[Localizer]

Rudder, I'm surprised by your comments unless I'm misunderstanding them .. I thought you were looking forward to your upgrade for next years seasonal contract? Seems difficult to imagine that upgrade if more foreign pilots are on the slate? (Unless its guaranteed?)

I'll take a page from our American brothers, this is Canada, Canadian jobs, if your not Canadian, kindly f*ck off. I don't mean to be completely rude, but we don't have enough good flying jobs to go around as it is. I could really care less about your radio calls, that's as positive as I get about this subject.

[Gino Under]

But Dh8Classic...if I may?
You may have misunderstood BE20 Driver.
Neither one of us knows whether or not the use of foreign pilots is or isn't a red herring regarding any safety incident. Real or imagined.
Any legitimate concern for safety, licensing, qualifications, background, etc., appears to have been left to a pilot employment agency based in Europe.
In your illustration, the pilot in question IS Canadien and his laundry has already been washed in public.
I don't recall his being here on a foreign contract. Nor do I believe he held an LVC issued under a suspicious interpretation of the law. These are the specifics of all this bitching and moaning.

...but I digress.

For a guy who painted himself into a corner I have to say, he did an amazing job of sticking that Blunderbus on an actual runway on a tiny island in the middle of the Atlantic. Frankly, it's disappointing to know how he ended up doing that but in my estimation nowhere near disappointment is understanding it was a miraculous recovery nonetheless and by any measure.
We could always survey passengers from that flight to actually find out what THEY think about his criminal past relative to his flying ability.
The pilot who thinks he/she isn't capable of a similarly equal mistake really needs to have a long chat with himself/herself. Regardless of nationality.

Now, if you're looking for foreigners of similar skill, look up the one about the British Airways 747 out of Jalarta that dragged 4 Rollers through some ash cloud. Interesting read.

I agree this isn't an exclusive or imaginary safety issue. That's why I, (speaking for myself) maintain it's a simple matter of ANY Canadian company hiring (full time or contract) non-Canadian pilots IS simply UNACCEPTABLE!!!

I'm already on record as saying this, but I'll say it again. Wet lease is one thing. An accepted industry practice. But, to recruit European pilots to fly contract for a Canadian carrier when Canadian pilots abound, is a joke and so is the airline that practices it.

I'll stand to be corrected on this but, it is my understanding that SW do both. Wet lease and hire contract pilots. I'm not bothered by wet lease but I am concerned about the 'hiring' bit.

I'll save some time with this post, and simply say,
...what localizer said.

Gino

[BE20 Driver]

But Dh8Classic...if I may?
You may have misunderstood BE20 Driver.

I'm on the same page. Safety is nothing other than a red herring. Labour permits and the public outrage over the TFW program seem the best way to get the public and eventually the government onside.

[Dh8Classic]

In your illustration, the pilot in question IS Canadien and his laundry has already been washed in public.
I don't recall his being here on a foreign contract. Nor do I believe he held an LVC issued under a suspicious interpretation of the law. These are the specifics of all this bitching and moaning.
Gino

Exactly my point. If there is a belief that these foreigners are a safety issue and there is evidence, then fine produce it. Otherwise, do not even bring it up.

I admit I may have misunderstood what BE-20 said. But I have seen a significant poster on this issue suggest otherwise in the past somewhere way back in the multitude of threads on this subject.

[WillDH82]

G'day Gino,

My name is William Dyer. I am the Australian guy you're referring to in your post. I just wanted to clear a few things up.

First, I was introduced to the idea of flying in Canada by a Canadian pilot I met in outback Australia. Maybe with regards to your concerns, we cancel each other out.

Secondly, I worked in Canada on a Visa which is reciprocated to Canadians by Australia, so it's an equal opportunity set up if a young Canadian pilot wants to thaw out in Aus.

I started my Canadian adventure in Vancouver where I resat my ATPL written exams and a flight test. Transport Canada was keeping a close eye on my ability the entire time.

Finally, when I arrived in Yellowknife to visit the Buffalo hanger, there was no line out the door of desperate young pilots willing to do anything for a few hours on classic types. In fact, Buffalo was so short at the time that they gave a job to an Australian knowing full well that I would struggle in those conditions. I truly don't believe I took an opportunity from a Canadian pilot. Every applicant that arrived on the door while I was there was given a chance.

Canadians are very lucky. I admit, the industry there is difficult with so many pilots, however, you guys have opportunities that don't exist anywhere else on the planet.

I will always be grateful to Canada for the opportunities I was given.

Kind regards,

William Dyer

p.s. One mans antiquated junk is another mans dream machine...