ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
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Brown Bear
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
Can't see any reason to put themselves in a position like that. Lucky they didn't kill themselves. Seriously.....using the rotors to blow the snow out of the way???
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Schooner69A
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
“The helicopter entered a high hover to blow away snow accumulation at the scene. During the manoeuvre a white-out condition was created. The main rotor contacted trees,” reads the report.
Many off-airport winter landings in a helicopter involve doing so in snow; if you know the surface underneath and you have adequate reference, you can execute a "no hover" landing which will minimize your time in the "snowball". However, if the surface underneath is questionable, I can see terminating in a high hover and attempting to blow some snow clear of the proposed landing site. The trick, of course, is to maintain adequate visual reference to preclude running into things - like tall trees.
You haven't lived until you're undertaking one of the a/n landings when the snowball catches up to you and your world goes white; it's like being on the inside of a Ping-Pong ball. Depending on your height above ground, you can elect to proceed (hoping that your sink rate is zeroed out and that your skids are still be aligned in the direction of flight at touchdown) or you can abort the landing by going on instruments and climbing out of the snow. Either way, it's an interesting exercise.
Many off-airport winter landings in a helicopter involve doing so in snow; if you know the surface underneath and you have adequate reference, you can execute a "no hover" landing which will minimize your time in the "snowball". However, if the surface underneath is questionable, I can see terminating in a high hover and attempting to blow some snow clear of the proposed landing site. The trick, of course, is to maintain adequate visual reference to preclude running into things - like tall trees.
You haven't lived until you're undertaking one of the a/n landings when the snowball catches up to you and your world goes white; it's like being on the inside of a Ping-Pong ball. Depending on your height above ground, you can elect to proceed (hoping that your sink rate is zeroed out and that your skids are still be aligned in the direction of flight at touchdown) or you can abort the landing by going on instruments and climbing out of the snow. Either way, it's an interesting exercise.
Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
Reminded me of this:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le4181448/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le4181448/
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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single_swine_herder
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
Well, it must be OK because after all, nobody was hurt. Right?
An interesting number about helicopter EMS in the USA was passed along to me from a powerpoint presentation at a medevac operator's conference in the US last fall .....
At today's current accident rate per 1,000 flights, if you project the fleet size growth rate over the next 20 years with an unchanged percentage of fatals per 1,000 flights, a person electing to go into HEMS as a Flight Nurse or Paramedic today would stand a 40% chance of being killed on the job.
40% chance of being killed on the job unless things change.
Think about it ..... that is worse than flying operational combat missions during modern times.
There is a huge push in HEMS ops in the US (among the operators at that conference anyway,) to adopt Risk Management and SMS as one thing to begin to reduce the accident rate. They think that unless they find effective ways to "clean up their act," the insurance companies and the FAA will do it for them .... and they may not like the way those changes are made.
SMS is being "sold" there in an engineering fashion, not in the form of regulatory oversight responsibility abandonment as it was done here.
An interesting number about helicopter EMS in the USA was passed along to me from a powerpoint presentation at a medevac operator's conference in the US last fall .....
At today's current accident rate per 1,000 flights, if you project the fleet size growth rate over the next 20 years with an unchanged percentage of fatals per 1,000 flights, a person electing to go into HEMS as a Flight Nurse or Paramedic today would stand a 40% chance of being killed on the job.
40% chance of being killed on the job unless things change.
Think about it ..... that is worse than flying operational combat missions during modern times.
There is a huge push in HEMS ops in the US (among the operators at that conference anyway,) to adopt Risk Management and SMS as one thing to begin to reduce the accident rate. They think that unless they find effective ways to "clean up their act," the insurance companies and the FAA will do it for them .... and they may not like the way those changes are made.
SMS is being "sold" there in an engineering fashion, not in the form of regulatory oversight responsibility abandonment as it was done here.
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shimmydampner
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
Got a lot of helicopter time, do you?Can't see any reason to put themselves in a position like that. Lucky they didn't kill themselves. Seriously.....using the rotors to blow the snow out of the way???
Unless I'm missing something or reading this wrong, this seems like one of those instances where someone either cooked up some numbers without knowing how to perform the associated mathematical operations, or mined some "stats" directly from the depths of their arse. Reminds me of Sex Panther Cologne: 60% of the time, it works every time. It's been a long, long time since my last Grade 13 Statistics and Probability class, but something doesn't ring true here for me. Maybe I'm wrong.At today's current accident rate per 1,000 flights, if you project the fleet size growth rate over the next 20 years with an unchanged percentage of fatals per 1,000 flights, a person electing to go into HEMS as a Flight Nurse or Paramedic today would stand a 40% chance of being killed on the job.
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single_swine_herder
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
All I can say is the material was peer-reviewed prior to being presented at the conference with substantial data crunching involved by the folks who deal with trauma .... so take it for what it's worth.
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Schooner69A
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
At today's current accident rate per 1,000 flights, if you project the fleet size growth rate over the next 20 years with an unchanged percentage of fatals per 1,000 flights, a person electing to go into HEMS as a Flight Nurse or Paramedic today would stand a 40% chance of being killed on the job.
I think what Shimmydamper is getting at is that the change in fleet size will have no effect on the accident rate. So, in that sense, the statement is meaningless. If your accident rate today is 1% per 1000 flights and your chance of getting killed on the job is -say- 10%, then an increase in fleet size of fifty times with the same accident rate should yield the same chance of getting hurt on the job.
Is is possible that something was left out of the quote?
John
I think what Shimmydamper is getting at is that the change in fleet size will have no effect on the accident rate. So, in that sense, the statement is meaningless. If your accident rate today is 1% per 1000 flights and your chance of getting killed on the job is -say- 10%, then an increase in fleet size of fifty times with the same accident rate should yield the same chance of getting hurt on the job.
Is is possible that something was left out of the quote?
John
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Brown Bear
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
I have ZERO helicopter time. If I had ten thousand hours on helicopters, would it be okay, in your mind to hit trees on approach to a private residence? They didn't know the approach into their intended LZ. Obviously. I say again....they hit trees on approach. They ARE lucky nobody died! This is NOT okay with me. It should NOT be okay with you.shimmydampner wrote:Got a lot of helicopter time, do you?Can't see any reason to put themselves in a position like that. Lucky they didn't kill themselves. Seriously.....using the rotors to blow the snow out of the way???ng.
One of these things hit a few trees in YMO a while back. Remember how that turned out?
The best "Brown Bear" of them all!
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single_swine_herder
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
Perhaps John ...... I'll look up the raw data powerpoint when I'm back at the office in a few days ...... (speculating now) it could have been the accident rate increase in the last decade would project to that fatal rate in the next 20 years. They have had a spate of VMC to IMC losses as well as wire strikes, etc as would be expected for the operational environment. Hang fire until I consult the research material and forward a contact for follow up.
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Schooner69A
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
It would be helpful to divorce WHAT occurred from TO WHOM it occurred. EMS operators aren’t the only ones in Canada conducting winter ops; AAMOF, they are probably in the minority.
So, rather than slinging ‘Stuff That Sticks’ at individual companies, it might be more productive to discuss rotary wing snow take-off/landing techniques; for, in reality, that is what has been critiqued here. The company for whom the crew worked is incidental.
In that light, there have to be many helicopter pilots here who can speak knowledgeably on the subject.
John
So, rather than slinging ‘Stuff That Sticks’ at individual companies, it might be more productive to discuss rotary wing snow take-off/landing techniques; for, in reality, that is what has been critiqued here. The company for whom the crew worked is incidental.
In that light, there have to be many helicopter pilots here who can speak knowledgeably on the subject.
John
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ReserveTank
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
So what does ORNGE`s ops manual say about handling a situation like that? I`m sure it does not say, "continue until you hit something". I bet it says something along the lines of, "abort the landing". Pilots often forget that when they are flying someone else`s (commercially registered) machine that they cannot invent their own method of flying it.
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Schooner69A
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
I would imagine that the Ops Manuals of most helicopter companies contain something like the following which is an outtake from a TC Safety Letter.
Snow Landing and Take-off Techniques for Helicopters
Throughout the course of winter operations, helicopters face a significant hazard associated with takeoffs, landings and hovering when the ground is covered with fresh or light snow. The rotor down wash can produce a flurry of re-circulating snow, reducing local visibility and causing whiteout conditions. There seems to be limited reference material available on the subject, but the following techniques are used by the industry as standard practice.
The towering takeoff
When conducting takeoffs in conditions conducive to re-circulating snow, apply enough power to get the snow blowing while keeping enough weight on the aircraft to prevent it from moving. Leave the power on as long as necessary to get good visual references. This could take up to a minute to accomplish.
Once good references are established, use a towering take-off technique (altitude over airspeed) to stay out of the re-circulating snow during the remainder of the departure procedure.
If the aircraft is equipped with a wheeled undercarriage and a runway is available, a rolling takeoff could be another option.
The rolling takeoff
Prior to starting the take-off roll, apply power to blow the runway clear in the vicinity of the aircraft-this will give you some reference for the start of the take-off roll. When ready for takeoff, apply enough power to get the aircraft accelerating ahead of the re-circulating snow. When ahead of the snow, lift the aircraft into the air, accelerate to the aircraft's normal climb speed and follow the normal climb profile.
• Use this technique when the snow cover is light (less than approximately 5 cm), and the snow is relatively dry. Deep or heavy snow could impose excessive load on the landing gear.
Landing: high-hover technique
Before using this technique, ensure that the aircraft is at a weight that will allow hover out of ground effect performance. If the aircraft is flying in clear air prior to the approach, activate the aircraft's anti-ice systems (if equipped) prior to entering the re-circulating snow.
Plan your approach to arrive in a high hover above the landing site. This hover could be several rotor diameters above ground depending on snow conditions, aircraft weight, rotor diameter, and aircraft type.
When in a high hover, the re-circulating snow will form beneath the helicopter, obscuring the landing site. This re-circulating snow will also rise; be sure to stay above the rising snow and wait until solid references appear beneath the aircraft. This could take up to a minute. These references are directly under the aircraft and within the diameter of the rotor disc. Once solid references have been obtained, a slow vertical descent to a touchdown is all that is required.
Landing: no-hover technique
This technique is generally used when aircraft do not have hover out of ground effect performance. The idea is to fly the approach fast enough to keep ahead of the re-circulating snow and complete a no-hover landing before the re-circulating snow engulfs the aircraft, causing local whiteout conditions.
Some of the negative aspects of this technique:
• Requires excellent timing-usually only one chance at getting it right.
• May not be able to get a detailed look at the touchdown area prior to landing.
• Not recommended for use at night helipads because of the reduced visual references required for judging the landing flare.
The run-on landing
A run-on landing could be another option, if your aircraft is equipped with a wheeled undercarriage and you are landing on a runway.
The technique is to fly the approach fast enough to keep well ahead of the re-circulating snow. On touch down, the aircraft has to have enough forward speed to stay ahead of the re-circulating snow and allow the collective to be fully lowered (lowering the collective reduces the re-circulating snow). Bring the aircraft to a full stop and taxi with caution.
• Use this technique when the snow cover is light (less than approximately 5 cm), and the snow is relatively dry. Deep or heavy snow could impose excessive load on the landing gear.
Safety first
Landings and takeoffs in re-circulating snow require skill, training, and adherence to the following safety points:
• Be certain you have sufficient power available to permit the manoeuvre.
• Ensure that the skids or wheels are not frozen to the ground prior to lift off to prevent dynamic rollover.
• Observe the flight manual and company operations manual limitations. In the transport category, the height-velocity diagram is a limitation and must be respected. In other helicopters, it should be considered in your planning.
• When using the towering takeoff or high-hover landing technique, be patient. Wait for solid references to appear before proceeding.
• Practice landings and takeoffs using references that are inside the diameter of the rotor disc.
• Obtain training from a qualified training pilot or flight instructor before using the techniques described here.
Rob Laporte
CASI-Helicopters
Ontario Region
Fixed wing pilots sometimes have trouble relating to the problems faced by their rotary wing bretheren; in the welded wing world, when landing,you're either VMC or you're not: in the fling wing world, pulling pitch may cause a VMC day to become nearly IMC with only a tuft of grass or a low bush available for visual reference until the snow subsides. I'm sure there are some here who can tell stories about when even the low bush disappeared!
John
Snow Landing and Take-off Techniques for Helicopters
Throughout the course of winter operations, helicopters face a significant hazard associated with takeoffs, landings and hovering when the ground is covered with fresh or light snow. The rotor down wash can produce a flurry of re-circulating snow, reducing local visibility and causing whiteout conditions. There seems to be limited reference material available on the subject, but the following techniques are used by the industry as standard practice.
The towering takeoff
When conducting takeoffs in conditions conducive to re-circulating snow, apply enough power to get the snow blowing while keeping enough weight on the aircraft to prevent it from moving. Leave the power on as long as necessary to get good visual references. This could take up to a minute to accomplish.
Once good references are established, use a towering take-off technique (altitude over airspeed) to stay out of the re-circulating snow during the remainder of the departure procedure.
If the aircraft is equipped with a wheeled undercarriage and a runway is available, a rolling takeoff could be another option.
The rolling takeoff
Prior to starting the take-off roll, apply power to blow the runway clear in the vicinity of the aircraft-this will give you some reference for the start of the take-off roll. When ready for takeoff, apply enough power to get the aircraft accelerating ahead of the re-circulating snow. When ahead of the snow, lift the aircraft into the air, accelerate to the aircraft's normal climb speed and follow the normal climb profile.
• Use this technique when the snow cover is light (less than approximately 5 cm), and the snow is relatively dry. Deep or heavy snow could impose excessive load on the landing gear.
Landing: high-hover technique
Before using this technique, ensure that the aircraft is at a weight that will allow hover out of ground effect performance. If the aircraft is flying in clear air prior to the approach, activate the aircraft's anti-ice systems (if equipped) prior to entering the re-circulating snow.
Plan your approach to arrive in a high hover above the landing site. This hover could be several rotor diameters above ground depending on snow conditions, aircraft weight, rotor diameter, and aircraft type.
When in a high hover, the re-circulating snow will form beneath the helicopter, obscuring the landing site. This re-circulating snow will also rise; be sure to stay above the rising snow and wait until solid references appear beneath the aircraft. This could take up to a minute. These references are directly under the aircraft and within the diameter of the rotor disc. Once solid references have been obtained, a slow vertical descent to a touchdown is all that is required.
Landing: no-hover technique
This technique is generally used when aircraft do not have hover out of ground effect performance. The idea is to fly the approach fast enough to keep ahead of the re-circulating snow and complete a no-hover landing before the re-circulating snow engulfs the aircraft, causing local whiteout conditions.
Some of the negative aspects of this technique:
• Requires excellent timing-usually only one chance at getting it right.
• May not be able to get a detailed look at the touchdown area prior to landing.
• Not recommended for use at night helipads because of the reduced visual references required for judging the landing flare.
The run-on landing
A run-on landing could be another option, if your aircraft is equipped with a wheeled undercarriage and you are landing on a runway.
The technique is to fly the approach fast enough to keep well ahead of the re-circulating snow. On touch down, the aircraft has to have enough forward speed to stay ahead of the re-circulating snow and allow the collective to be fully lowered (lowering the collective reduces the re-circulating snow). Bring the aircraft to a full stop and taxi with caution.
• Use this technique when the snow cover is light (less than approximately 5 cm), and the snow is relatively dry. Deep or heavy snow could impose excessive load on the landing gear.
Safety first
Landings and takeoffs in re-circulating snow require skill, training, and adherence to the following safety points:
• Be certain you have sufficient power available to permit the manoeuvre.
• Ensure that the skids or wheels are not frozen to the ground prior to lift off to prevent dynamic rollover.
• Observe the flight manual and company operations manual limitations. In the transport category, the height-velocity diagram is a limitation and must be respected. In other helicopters, it should be considered in your planning.
• When using the towering takeoff or high-hover landing technique, be patient. Wait for solid references to appear before proceeding.
• Practice landings and takeoffs using references that are inside the diameter of the rotor disc.
• Obtain training from a qualified training pilot or flight instructor before using the techniques described here.
Rob Laporte
CASI-Helicopters
Ontario Region
Fixed wing pilots sometimes have trouble relating to the problems faced by their rotary wing bretheren; in the welded wing world, when landing,you're either VMC or you're not: in the fling wing world, pulling pitch may cause a VMC day to become nearly IMC with only a tuft of grass or a low bush available for visual reference until the snow subsides. I'm sure there are some here who can tell stories about when even the low bush disappeared!
John
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Flying Nutcracker
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Schooner69A
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
When the chopper lifts up, turns, and starts to drift rearward, you just KNOW what is going to happen. They were so lucky that the integrity of the blade(s) wasn't/weren't more compromised...
John
John
Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
I thought that was going to end much worse than it did. Bit of a sickening feeling watching it unfold, even though it's 'just' a video.Flying Nutcracker wrote:It happens...http://youtu.be/uWNepit0q1A
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single_swine_herder
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
John .... I checked, and sure enough, one word makes all the difference in the world .... corrected to:
At today's current accident rate "escalation" per 1,000 flights, if you project the fleet size growth rate over the next 20 years with an unchanged percentage of fatals per 1,000 flights, a person electing to go into HEMS as a Flight Nurse or Paramedic today would stand a 40% chance of being killed on the job.
Adding the word escalation.
Once I get back to the office, I'll be able to post the company source of the Helicopter EMS operational study and projection.
At today's current accident rate "escalation" per 1,000 flights, if you project the fleet size growth rate over the next 20 years with an unchanged percentage of fatals per 1,000 flights, a person electing to go into HEMS as a Flight Nurse or Paramedic today would stand a 40% chance of being killed on the job.
Adding the word escalation.
Once I get back to the office, I'll be able to post the company source of the Helicopter EMS operational study and projection.
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tractor driver
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
Curious,
with this incident, and the latest with the window loss, on both occasions the patient was subsequently, and successfully transported via land ambulance. So what's with the helicopters?
with this incident, and the latest with the window loss, on both occasions the patient was subsequently, and successfully transported via land ambulance. So what's with the helicopters?
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Schooner69A
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
"...So what's with the helicopters?"
(From a paper on treating war wounded)
"...Since the 19th century, mortality from war wounds steadily decreased as surgeons on all sides of conflicts developed systems for rapidly moving the wounded from the battlefield to front line hospitals where surgical care is delivered..."
There is no doubt that transport of trauma patients by ground will probably get them safely to hospital- say - 99% of the time; however, as in previous wars, their outcomes may be compromised by the duration of the journey. However, faster methods (i.e. helicopters) obviously produce better results, but with the attendant risk that a certain percentage may not reach destination due to weather, equipment failure, etc., and may have to continue the journey by land. Notwithstanding, if I was ever involved in a traumatic accident, I would rather see a helicopter arrive on scene rather than an ambulance.
John
(From a paper on treating war wounded)
"...Since the 19th century, mortality from war wounds steadily decreased as surgeons on all sides of conflicts developed systems for rapidly moving the wounded from the battlefield to front line hospitals where surgical care is delivered..."
There is no doubt that transport of trauma patients by ground will probably get them safely to hospital- say - 99% of the time; however, as in previous wars, their outcomes may be compromised by the duration of the journey. However, faster methods (i.e. helicopters) obviously produce better results, but with the attendant risk that a certain percentage may not reach destination due to weather, equipment failure, etc., and may have to continue the journey by land. Notwithstanding, if I was ever involved in a traumatic accident, I would rather see a helicopter arrive on scene rather than an ambulance.
John
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tractor driver
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Re: ORNGE clips trees on landing, Dec 22nd 2013.
Agreed John,
there have been countless injuries reduced and lives saved by the expediency of the air ambulance. Not in question. Any crew members I have met are all top notch. I was only referring to these two incidents, and imagining that the "unsuspecting" public is going to wonder the same thing. ie. if the land ambulance worked out so well, why send the helicopter? Conserving the resource for an action where it is truly needed is wise, particularly considering "Murphy" seems to always be out there, and will deal you a blow when you're otherwise occupied. No doubt the emergency dispatch knows what it's doing when sending out their aircraft and to where. Just a couple of unfortunate circumstances that make it look questionable?
With all the foolishness in the papers last couple of years, we'll probably have to defend this too.
Cheers!
g
there have been countless injuries reduced and lives saved by the expediency of the air ambulance. Not in question. Any crew members I have met are all top notch. I was only referring to these two incidents, and imagining that the "unsuspecting" public is going to wonder the same thing. ie. if the land ambulance worked out so well, why send the helicopter? Conserving the resource for an action where it is truly needed is wise, particularly considering "Murphy" seems to always be out there, and will deal you a blow when you're otherwise occupied. No doubt the emergency dispatch knows what it's doing when sending out their aircraft and to where. Just a couple of unfortunate circumstances that make it look questionable?
With all the foolishness in the papers last couple of years, we'll probably have to defend this too.
Cheers!
g
