Encore's Pay and Work Conditions

[BTyyj]

Pursuing a career with a greater income potential may be a "smart" choice, however, that depends on how you view it.

My experience has been that those who pursue a career in something that brings enjoyment and meaning to their lives are often the happiest. Isn't that what life is all about anyway?

If the person in question has found a job that may bring meaning in their life, either in the job itself, or by earning enough income in that said job in order to find meaning elsewhere, then good on them.

That being said, this isn't as linear of a decision as the two previous posters seem to be making it out to be, IMHO.

[FL025]

I started with Encore a few months ago, its not great. All the worst things in the contract is what you get every month. Im hearing that flow to mainline is not going to happen on schedule. With 50 guys hired this year at mainline , and about 10 guys going if it does happen. We have 70 or so now, so its many years to start the westjet pay scale. If you can, I would just hold out for westjet. They are going to hire 75% more of guys off the street than here already.

[Duster]

I started with Encore a few months ago, its not great. All the worst things in the contract is what you get every month. Im hearing that flow to mainline is not going to happen on schedule. With 50 guys hired this year at mainline , and about 10 guys going if it does happen. We have 70 or so now, so its many years to start the westjet pay scale. If you can, I would just hold out for westjet. They are going to hire 75% more of guys off the street than here already.

FL025 just wondering if your group has had any assistance from the WJPA to address some of what's going on there. For what it's worth, there are a large number of us at WJ who are very sympathetic and are working for change. In my opinion your wages and working conditions bring shame to WestJet and the industry as a whole. A lot of us who voted yes to the idea of Encore are sickened by what you ended up with. Definietly not my idea of the WestJet way to do things. Support for the WPPA is steadily growing - hopefully once certification occurs we can work together to effect some positive change. In a perfect world - one list.

[rudder]

I started with Encore a few months ago, its not great. All the worst things in the contract is what you get every month. Im hearing that flow to mainline is not going to happen on schedule. With 50 guys hired this year at mainline , and about 10 guys going if it does happen. We have 70 or so now, so its many years to start the westjet pay scale. If you can, I would just hold out for westjet. They are going to hire 75% more of guys off the street than here already.

Of course flow will be delayed - there is nobody qualified applying to replace the departing Encore plots!

It is great to hear a candid and factual report on what new-hires can expect at Encore. But you better duck......some the WJ mainline pilots will soon jump on here to remind you that they had to pay their dues too at WJ. But the reality is that it is all just smoke and mirrors at Encore. And if you are lucky, perhaps going forward the "dues paid" will be to a certified bargaining agent.

In the meantime the Encore pilots should all do themselves a favour and apply to AC/Rouge. I am certain that AC would be more than happy to pick pocket the Encore operation.

[dhc#]

I started with Encore a few months ago, its not great. All the worst things in the contract is what you get every month. Im hearing that flow to mainline is not going to happen on schedule. With 50 guys hired this year at mainline , and about 10 guys going if it does happen. We have 70 or so now, so its many years to start the westjet pay scale. If you can, I would just hold out for westjet. They are going to hire 75% more of guys off the street than here already.

What he said

The sad reality of what flow will really be, sets in this spring for those who came to Encore with hopes of a relatively quick move to mainline, most were led to believe about a year, but 2-4 yrs seems to be more realistic depending on growth at mainline, then you get to start at the bottom of the mainline payscale once you do make the jump....all the while knowing those being hired at mainline this spring will be making more than you and faster...DOH is such a hollow feeling

[Cisbour]

Could we expect some Encore spots in YYZ by the end of 2014? Or the moving out east expansion is only for mainline folks?

[rudder]

Could we expect some Encore spots in YYZ by the end of 2014? Or the moving out east expansion is only for mainline folks?

Folks, if you want conditions to improve at Encore then STOP APPLYING!

The laws of supply and demand set terms and conditions at these non-union outfits. Every pilot that says 'yes' to substandard wages or working conditions not only reinforces the low bar at that particular carrier but also contributes to a lower overall industry bar. Just look at how things evolved south of the border. And once things drop low enough, they never recover irrespective of economic cycle.

Take Encore, Skyregional, and Georgian off your application list and I guarantee you that they will be forced to improve what they are offering. And note that Porter is not included on that list. I believe that it has already learned this lesson.

[FL767]

FL025 just wondering if your group has had any assistance from the WJPA to address some of what's going on there. For what it's worth, there are a large number of us at WJ who are very sympathetic and are working for change. In my opinion your wages and working conditions bring shame to WestJet and the industry as a whole. A lot of us who voted yes to the idea of Encore are sickened by what you ended up with. Definietly not my idea of the WestJet way to do things. Support for the WPPA is steadily growing - hopefully once certification occurs we can work together to effect some positive change. In a perfect world - one list.[/quote]

Thier wages and conditions may bring shame to the industry, but mainline brought just as much shame back in '96. The whole point of WestJet was to lower airline costs, (wages being the biggest cost of any business).

Under $40 grand a year and 20 days/month is the new standard for regional flying in Canada set largely by Encore. Cheers.

[watermeth]

And note that Porter is not included on that list.

We have yet to discover the cseries' payscale.

wages being the biggest cost of any business

Not sure, it would worth digging in AC AT WJ financial publications. If i recall correctly fuel was the most important operational cost for AT in 2012, however wages are a "controlable cost"... Once again i stand corrected.

Some economist demonstrated that increasing hourly wage by 1$ could generate 10$ in benefits due to better employee morale and better customer service. Where manpower is not sufficient, a 1$ increase created around 28$increase in benefit. That's way better than investing on twitter IPO.
When i see managers complaining about a high turn over of workforce and rising trainin costs, i'm always surprised to see them so surprised, i.e. You don't make money by decreasing wages but by improving your offer and your product's reputation. See southwest, ikea and the like.
For more info read this book. http://zeynepton.com/book/
And this article about the book and the study, i recommend both to all managers reading this board.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/magaz ... f=business&

[jjj]

Just to interject a bit.

I would like to see how the new hire FOs at Encore stack up against the direct entry FOs at the mainline. 100 bucks says there is a large experience gap.

If any new hire FOs at Encore think they are getting shafted then don't apply. Slug it out for a few more years then start competing for a direct entry mainline job. You won't be any further along. SOME (not all) of the people that feel they are left behind by direct entry mainline pilots fail to see that they wouldn't stand a chance at the position they envy.

Encore will get better with time. At least if you get in at Encore then you have your in at mainline. I know there are a lot of well qualified folks at Encore with some good time under their belt - sooner to mainline the better.

Patience. Lots of it.

JJJ

[rudder]

Just to interject a bit.

I would like to see how the new hire FOs at Encore stack up against the direct entry FOs at the mainline. 100 bucks says there is a large experience gap.

If any new hire FOs at Encore think they are getting shafted then don't apply. Slug it out for a few more years then start competing for a direct entry mainline job. You won't be any further along. SOME (not all) of the people that feel they are left behind by direct entry mainline pilots fail to see that they wouldn't stand a chance at the position they envy.

Encore will get better with time. At least if you get in at Encore then you have your in at mainline. I know there are a lot of well qualified folks at Encore with some good time under their belt - sooner to mainline the better.

Patience. Lots of it.

JJJ

Pass the koolaid (and the profit sharing cheque).

[jetav8r]

I started with Encore a few months ago, its not great. All the worst things in the contract is what you get every month. Im hearing that flow to mainline is not going to happen on schedule. With 50 guys hired this year at mainline , and about 10 guys going if it does happen. We have 70 or so now, so its many years to start the westjet pay scale. If you can, I would just hold out for westjet. They are going to hire 75% more of guys off the street than here already.

Where were you before? Do you regret your decision?

[FL767]

I started with Encore a few months ago, its not great. All the worst things in the contract is what you get every month. Im hearing that flow to mainline is not going to happen on schedule. With 50 guys hired this year at mainline , and about 10 guys going if it does happen. We have 70 or so now, so its many years to start the westjet pay scale. If you can, I would just hold out for westjet. They are going to hire 75% more of guys off the street than here already.

Where were you before? Do you regret your decision?

Well I certainly don't regret their decision to join Encore and work at those wages. I fly Northern Medevacs and a few months ago I had a spare $10 g's lying around and picked up some shares in WJA. Here's hoping Bedoe and gang get mainline folks to work for Encore wages! Cheers.

[AirMail]

Could we expect some Encore spots in YYZ by the end of 2014? Or the moving out east expansion is only for mainline folks?

Folks, if you want conditions to improve at Encore then STOP APPLYING!

The laws of supply and demand set terms and conditions at these non-union outfits. Every pilot that says 'yes' to substandard wages or working conditions not only reinforces the low bar at that particular carrier but also contributes to a lower overall industry bar. Just look at how things evolved south of the border. And once things drop low enough, they never recover irrespective of economic cycle.

Take Encore, Skyregional, and Georgian off your application list and I guarantee you that they will be forced to improve what they are offering. And note that Porter is not included on that list. I believe that it has already learned this lesson.

Logic would think that, but I'm sure the response would be a pilot shortage in Canada and then bring in foreigners like Sunwing.

wages being the biggest cost of any business

I know you said any business but that's not always the case, and more relevant in aviation, fuel is the biggest cost. Hedging helps, as with other measures. Wages are just easy to push upon the peons.

I'm also sure over time things will improve at WS

[sstaurus]

Folks, if you want conditions to improve at Encore then STOP APPLYING!

The laws of supply and demand set terms and conditions at these non-union outfits. Every pilot that says 'yes' to substandard wages or working conditions not only reinforces the low bar at that particular carrier but also contributes to a lower overall industry bar. Just look at how things evolved south of the border. And once things drop low enough, they never recover irrespective of economic cycle.

Take Encore, Skyregional, and Georgian off your application list and I guarantee you that they will be forced to improve what they are offering. And note that Porter is not included on that list. I believe that it has already learned this lesson.

There should be a sticky at the top of every board on avcanada saying as much.

[flyer 1492]

Just to interject a bit.

I would like to see how the new hire FOs at Encore stack up against the direct entry FOs at the mainline. 100 bucks says there is a large experience gap.

If any new hire FOs at Encore think they are getting shafted then don't apply. Slug it out for a few more years then start competing for a direct entry mainline job. You won't be any further along. SOME (not all) of the people that feel they are left behind by direct entry mainline pilots fail to see that they wouldn't stand a chance at the position they envy.

Encore will get better with time. At least if you get in at Encore then you have your in at mainline. I know there are a lot of well qualified folks at Encore with some good time under their belt - sooner to mainline the better.

Patience. Lots of it.

JJJ

So JJJ you are saying that the first officers at Encore are of lower quality than the f/o's hired at WJ. Jazz has hired college grads with 250 hours and operate just as well as someone with a lot more experience. So what you saying does not hold true, any pilot can be trained to fly a jet.

Flyer

[jjj]

Quality is not the right word. Experience is.

Say what you want about the wonder pilots - there is no doubt some natural talent among the ranks - but generally speaking the inexperience doesn't match up.

Not all candidates are equal and each operator chooses the metrics to decide who gets the spot.

I'm glad most of our new FOs have some solid background.

JJJ

[Squid]

My brother is working his a$$ off there right now but he loves it.
likes doing the start up thing too. It's only 7 months in and I gotta laugh at both the pilot and what I would call industry entitlement from guys who ultimately have their own agenda. Peel back the real reasons. Also on the other points look at how we have increased our training footprint here at AC over the past few years due to the different pilot coming in the door flyer. Hint that It's huge.

[Bede]

So JJJ you are saying that the first officers at Encore are of lower quality than the f/o's hired at WJ. Jazz has hired college grads with 250 hours and operate just as well as someone with a lot more experience. So what you saying does not hold true, any pilot can be trained to fly a jet.

Flyer

Are you claiming a 250hr pilot is the same quality as a 2500hr pilot just because they have the same type training?

[dhc#]

From today's Financial Post

http://business.financialpost.com/2014/ ... rformance/

[jjj]

dhc#,

What is the relevance of that article to this discussion?

[FL767]

So JJJ you are saying that the first officers at Encore are of lower quality than the f/o's hired at WJ. Jazz has hired college grads with 250 hours and operate just as well as someone with a lot more experience. So what you saying does not hold true, any pilot can be trained to fly a jet.

Flyer

Are you claiming a 250hr pilot is the same quality as a 2500hr pilot just because they have the same type training?

Of course the 2500 hr pilot will be better than the 250 hr pilot, but it doesn't seem the difference in experience is worth very much these days. Blame newer technology in the aircraft, blame more infrastructure on the ground, blame better SOP's, blame SMS, but a 250 hr pilot can do the same job as a 2500 hr or 25,000 hr pilot.

Jazz, Lufthansa, Cathay, Emirates has been putting 250 hr pilots in the right seat for years - modern flying is easy! the 1950's are long gone.

$38/credit hour is for people right out of college - good luck raising a family in Calgary with that. College wages are what Encore pays, college kids are what they deserve.

[GRK]

A 250 hour pilot can do the same job as a 25000 hour one? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha….whooooo…that hurts! I'm all out of breath! Wow…best one so far this year!

[jjj]

FL767,

You are sorely mistaken.

The problem is that you don't know what you don't know. That's not your fault. Write that little post you made on a piece of paper and read it again in 10 years. You'll laugh your arse off.

The learning doesn't stop ever in this job little ones. If you are a 250 hour wonder pilot and you think think you are on par with people who are 10 or 100 times more experienced that you - you will get schooled in this industry. Good luck.

[Bede]

Of course the 2500 hr pilot will be better than the 250 hr pilot, but it doesn't seem the difference in experience is worth very much these days. Blame newer technology in the aircraft, blame more infrastructure on the ground, blame better SOP's, blame SMS, but a 250 hr pilot can do the same job as a 2500 hr or 25,000 hr pilot.

Sure they can do the same job until the poop hits the fan.

20,000hr pilot:


Low time pilot:



99% of the time we have a really easy job, but every so often it becomes incredibly challenging. This is where our experience comes in. Other professions are similar- according to a couple firends, surgery is easy most of the time, but every so often there are complications and you have to rely on all of your experience to make the best of a bad situation.