doug ronan removed as director from copa

[photofly]

posters negative to COPA should either join and get involved or be quiet because if you do not belong it is not your business.

Well, no, not really. If COPA claims to represent the GA lobby, then it claims to represent even those who aren't members.

Can't have it both ways.

[ScreaminBanshee]

Maybe a mod should turn this into its own thread since it has taken a departure….

Hi There, this is my first posting on this site although I have been following it since its inception. First of all let me say you are dead on with your comments. You are right COPA has done nothing positive to attract new members. As you probably can tell from my user name I am a member of COPA and a director and probably will get slapped on the wrist by some other members for responding to your post. I may be an "old boy" but young at heart. I have tried on my own to recruit younger members but found that we have no real relevance to the younger flyers. On every commercial air trip I take, I make it a point to introduce myself to the crew and invite them to come back to their flying roots. I have asked co-op students that work at our airport and given them a copy of our "magazine" and asked for their critique. Unfortunately, not much in it interests them. I have tried encouraging my former air cadets to become interested, but even the graduates of the scholarship program find COPA dull. If you would like to see a change, now is the time to do something. Ontario and Quebec are holding elections for regional directors. Why not run for a position on the board and see if you can change the attitude and minds of some of these old fogies. If I get re-elected this term I would really like to work with young blood. If you figure out who I am from my user signature, look in the COPA paper for my phone number and please give me a call.
Sincerely,
av8rphil

Hi Phil,
Thanks for the offer to run but I am outside those territories.
I actually have sent you a letter in the past but it was to a few people at once. Perhaps I will send you a more personalized one shortly. It sounds like you have done than the majority of COPA people I have met. I think a big issue too is there could be one great chapter and one bad chapter. There is no standardized approach. Even if there was it might not work. As you said you were involved with cadets, you get someone who has been in a an organization for 6-7 years, has it all figured out, had friends that they were with for those 6 years, and then they go to a COPA meeting where nothing is familiar and no one is reaching out. It’s one of those things that once you have the young base in place, there is familiarity for the next crop. But until then, how do we get the first group in and retain them?

I think the flight SIM idea that Paseve had is, in no offense, a dead idea. I have seen it tried on many occasions and always in the end there is a computer collecting dust. Flight simulator is something someone can do at home and realize what we all have. Flying computer sim is not flying.

We need to get the young people who already have their license. Air Cadets turns out roughly 320 glider pilots a year and 250 private licenses. This is a group that is ripe for the picking. The problem is that most can’t afford to fly after they get their license. They are still very much interested in flying. This is where I think the mentorship pair up would be ideal. Get them flying. All these young pilots have one thing in common, they like flying. They don’t like going to a meeting and listening to the old guys. Perhaps there needs to be a shift, weather permitting, where COPA meetings are based around a fly out or something. Heck I think I would even like that better. Go flying for a couple hours then comeback and BS a bit. Load the non-owner members into the back seats so they can come too.

There is also another group of young pilots which are the young professional pilot which makes up the majority of young pilots younger than 30. These pilots barely make enough money to pay rent, pay tuition loans, and pay for groceries while they work the rat race trying to get on top. These guys fly and fly often, which is part of the problem because they can’t make it to regularly scheduled events which means they don’t develop relationships. They fly 500-800 hours a year but have no extra money to fly for fun no extra patience for an “older” member who is giving them “advice” on how to do this or that even though they have twice the flying experience. My wife went flying with a guy who is older and was giving her a hard time about how late she was waiting to slow down on approach and how tight of a circuit she was flying, etc. I think this is a huge turn off for the younger guys who fly for a living. I think the older crowd need to realise what these younger pilots have to offer as far as experience. Just because they are young doesn’t mean they are inexperienced. That being said, some are.

Perhaps instead of telling young people to join COPA and what it does why don’t we ask them what it would have to look like for them to want to join?

I like COPA.
Been a member since 1976.
I know the President and have great respect for his knowledge and efforts, as do industry peers and government officials.
He has done more than any other representative to present GA as a serious lobby with important issues for Canada's well being.
The COPA staff is terrific, I read the newspaper cover to cover.
The insurance program and benefits work well.
Our local COPA Flight is well organized and satisfies the Four Fs- Flying- Friendship- Fun-Food!
I have known most Board members for a long time and appreciate their efforts.
This thread suffers from LMF and the posters negative to COPA should either join and get involved or be quiet because if you do not belong it is not your business.
COPA is a great organization and this thread more represents the gutter level discussions forum that for some reason AVCanada allows, but is not fair on a dedicated group of people trying their best.

Well I want to be diplomatic here but if you have been a member since 1976 that makes you around 60 and that makes you one of the “older guys” that the younger generation has trouble relating to. So if you think everything about COPA is all well and great then keep on trucking, all the power to you. Personally I think that an aging membership population and low retention of young members is going to kill the organization. Obviously I am trying to get involved but you can’t rock the boat too much either when you are young at a chapter. However, I do agree with you that COPA has done more than any other lobbying group in Canada.

[Pavese]

posters negative to COPA should either join and get involved or be quiet because if you do not belong it is not your business.

Well, no, not really. If COPA claims to represent the GA lobby, then it claims to represent even those who aren't members.

Can't have it both ways.

Either you want to join in and be part of creating and influencing the solution or you can take what you get by standing on the sidelines and doing nothing. Same choice you're offered by the COP by the way. Your choice but don't expect your concerns to be addressed without coming into the room and taking part.

COPA or COP or AOPA or EAA or or ALPA or all the alphabets are there to serve their members first, if participating doesn't suit you then you have some grown up decisions to make.

D

P.S. ScreaminBanshee, I believe you're right, this is turning into a constructive thread that could stand on its own:

Maybe a mod should turn this into its own thread since it has taken a departure….

[H Christensen]

Liking Kevin Psutka or the COPA people or how things are makes an earlier poster's point that too many COPA members are okay with not knowing and not knowing they're not knowing about the events that lead to Doug Ronan's expulsion from the board; still a hot issue with a large number of people in his Southern Ontario territory and for his other supporters across the country.
The COPA Chair who honchoed the revocation of Ronan's membership, thus his ability to sit on the board of directors, was way out of line. Perhaps that's what prompted his recent decision to resign.

[kamikaze]

Great post from SB, though it mostly leads my thoughts in a different direction than most of you ...

If you accept that COPA is primarily for private flyers (The "Pilots") and private aircraft owners (The "Owners"), then there is an implied limit on the demographics you're going to appeal to. As SB points out, those that get in young are getting into it for a career, and COPA simply won't be for them. And maybe, just maybe, that's OK, and accepting this would do some good.

COPA, like much of our society, is adapting to the changing demographics as the boomers go "through the system". Private flying is unlikely to ever be for the really young, at least not for the foreseeable future. It's costly and time intensive. Most people do the whole grow up, go to school, start a career, start a family, and then maybe find time and money to fly privately. You're unlikely to ever get tot his part before your thirties, and if someone manages to do so, they're the exception, not the rule.

Only two solutions to this: Make flying cheaper and less time intensive, or accept that you'll never attract the really young by your very nature, and instead focus more on attracting MORE of the *right* demographic, say people in their thirties.

Part 23 revisions may eventually help with the cost issue, but it'll be years (10+) before anything concrete happens and is reflected in the market in a way that will benefit bringing in new people.

Focusing on attracting new people from a more realistic demographic could be done now, and could potentially prove far more helpful ...

I'm 39, started at 33 ... private flying only, and owner. What keeps me from flying as much as I'd like? 2 young kids ... nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not anything COPA could ever change ... of course I started my family later than average

[jjbaker]

Liking Kevin Psutka or the COPA people or how things are makes an earlier poster's point that too many COPA members are okay with not knowing and not knowing they're not knowing about the events that lead to Doug Ronan's expulsion from the board; still a hot issue with a large number of people in his Southern Ontario territory and for his other supporters across the country.
The COPA Chair who honchoed the revocation of Ronan's membership, thus his ability to sit on the board of directors, was way out of line. Perhaps that's what prompted his recent decision to resign.

After reading some of the above comments on how wonderful they are, I wondered if there should be more KOOLaid trucks northbound, inventory must be getting low...



Probably still a hot issue for only a handful of people who dare to speak up and speak their minds.
That's those who get branded aviation enemy #1 for criticizing and refusing to fund these clowns and told to either pay up and shut up or just shut up... The member really has no louder voice than the non member, you either go with the play, or you don't belong to the club...

Old age and arrogance, along with political correctness and little power schmoozy games will kill this cat. The question isn't if this will happen, the question is when. The problem seems that the older guys may not want to rock the boat too hard for fear of conflict, while the younger guys get violently and harshly prevented from reaching the right positions.

Fact is: Members love not knowing things, it's what keeps the lid on most things that would make more than 75% of the membership jump ship, if it ever came out. Fix: Take the money and salaries/ benefits out in one swoop and all the idiot games stop on the spot.

$0.02

[Pavese]

That post didn't do much for your credibility Jason.

BTW, this is Jason's pulpit:

http://jasonjamesbaker.wordpress.com/


D

[photofly]

I don't know: and I rather love some of the stuff on his website. I hope Jason doesn't mind me quoting this particularly delicious titbit:

Somehow, over the last couple of decades, associations have managed to portray themselves as the only form of passionate expression about aviation. Cheap marketing still works and emotion is a good tool to close the sale. Creating urgency and putting the pressure on sells a TON of memberships every year. Sheep always follow.

“If you love aviation/ to fly/ to work in aviation/ to land on water/ to speak with fellow pilots, you owe it to yourself to join our cause! If you don’t join/ renew/ up your membership/ sign up with our special double super program, you will surely see aviation’s demise within the next few years!”

Only a total Putz ridden by monumental idiocy would knowingly do something to hurt what they love, right? Hence – the majority of members join, rejoin, renew, renew early or sign up for lifetime memberships; and generally do as they are told to preserve their “freedom to fly”. The majority of members don’t have many questions about how membership dollars are spent, how effective their associations really are, how small or big their association is and how many of their fellow members they could actually reach if they needed help and push came to shove.

[BGH]

The original thread was about the way that Ronan was removed from the copa board.Somewhere in the back pages I wrote about my unhappiness about this to both psutka & hayes & the replies from both pissed me off enough to cancel my membership with a full year left & they don't give refunds.
For the record I've owned & flown my own cessna 185 since I was 23 years old & I'm going to be 54 in august,copa hasn't done very much to help me & their insurance coverage sure wasn't cheaper to me.If the upper eschelon is only going to shovel crap in my direction when I ask for proper answers then I'm out;I work hard enough for my money & hate wasting it on useless expenses such as copa membership.

I know who jason is & he ain't lying.

Daryl

[Pavese]

I don't know: and I rather love some of the stuff on his website. I hope Jason doesn't mind me quoting this particularly delicious titbit:

SNIP!

It's like I said before, stand on the sidelines and throw rocks or get engaged and make changes, if you don't like the status quo then put your hand up and take the lead.

Are you running for a COPA director's position (or director of any other organization?) so you can do something? Local chapter executive? You'd be surprised with the view from behind the reins.

D

[photofly]

It's like I said before, stand on the sidelines and throw rocks or get engaged and make changes, if you don't like the status quo then put your hand up and take the lead.

Are you running for a COPA director's position (or director of any other organization?) so you can do something? Local chapter executive? You'd be surprised with the view from behind the reins.

No, I actually organized a group of pilots to oppose a new policy at our airport. I went around the field with a clip-board, took registrations and posted letters to pilots. Then after we got 30 pilots together we got the policy changed.

However, the first phone call I made was to COPA, and I spoke to Psutka; he was as useless as a chocolate teapot. Told me that COPA wouldn't help and we were on our own. How he was busy dealing with important, federal matters, and local stuff was too small. (Actually I listened to a 30 minute lecture on how important the important federal matters he was dealing with were.)

Of course *after* I got thirty pilots in a room, COPA representatives came crawling out of the woodwork to sign up a "new" chapter, and tried to take credit for the great achievements we made.

So I won't take any lectures on "getting involved" or "the view from the other side". I *am* the other side. Not COPA.

[Pavese]

It's like I said before, stand on the sidelines and throw rocks or get engaged and make changes, if you don't like the status quo then put your hand up and take the lead.

Are you running for a COPA director's position (or director of any other organization?) so you can do something? Local chapter executive? You'd be surprised with the view from behind the reins.

No, I actually organized a group of pilots to oppose a new policy at our airport. I went around the field with a clip-board, took registrations and posted letters to pilots. Then after we got 30 pilots together we got the policy changed.

However, the first phone call I made was to COPA, and I spoke to Psutka; he was as useless as a chocolate teapot. Told me that COPA wouldn't help and we were on our own. How he was busy dealing with important, federal matters, and local stuff was too small. (Actually I listened to a 30 minute lecture on how important the important federal matters he was dealing with were.)

Of course *after* I got thirty pilots in a room, COPA representatives came crawling out of the woodwork to sign up a "new" chapter, and tried to take credit for the great achievements we made.

So I won't take any lectures on "getting involved" or "the view from the other side". I *am* the other side. Not COPA.

Good for you! So you can see what can be done by picking up the ball and running with it rather than throwing rocks, well done! If you don't want to fix things on the next level that's also your choice and you are to be respected for that too but you also know it's not helpful to have critics on the sidelines complaining but doing nothing constructive when others are trying.

I'm glad you came out and specified your interaction with COPA and Psutka, that will be good ammunition for someone to decide whether they want to pick up the ball and run with it (or not), I'm not sure I'd get into name calling though.

I too have discussed local issues with Psutka on several occasions and have understood the logic of the local community needing to take the lead to address local issues. I was however given input on how to approach the issues and feedback on my efforts so I had a better experience than you did.

D

[photofly]

I'm sure if you tried really hard you could sound a little bit more condescending.

What's the extent of your activism in support of GA?

[2R]

So has he been allowed to re-join ,been re-instated, bought off or disappeared ?
Anyone spoke with the bloke since the new year ?

[Pavese]

I'm sure if you tried really hard you could sound a little bit more condescending.

What's the extent of your activism in support of GA?

Sorry if you don't take it that way but I'm entirely sincere.

D

[jjbaker]

If I wasn't laughing so hard about the "assessment" of my credibility, I'd respond.
Maybe tomorrow, when some more of these sincere gems about me and all the other "sideline standing rock throwers" come to light...

And of course, photofly, I do stand behind what I wrote there and am able to back it up, so I have no issues with anyone quoting it.
Its not exactly a blog that enjoys a lot of nurturing love from our little jetsetter luxury clubs and associations. Even though I haven't written anything in the longest time, it still had some 15000 vistors/ readers last year. The article on the top has received tons of email feedback, none of them questioning my integrity or credibility...

Research beats low-ball attacks.

J

[photofly]

I'm sure if you tried really hard you could sound a little bit more condescending.

What's the extent of your activism in support of GA?

Sorry if you don't take it that way but I'm entirely sincere.

D

I don't doubt your sincerity, but it reads like a kindergarten teacher to a child who's just discovered how to pull the toilet handle unassisted. ("Good for you! Well done!") Kind of funny. No offence intended by you, and none (lasting) taken.

[ScreaminBanshee]

Well stuff like this is why I lurked and never joined AVCanada. Could have been a good discussion but I don't think I will be coming back due to the immature sniveling back and forth. Waste of time IMO. Can people not have differing opinions with out being sarcastically lambasted around here?

[jjbaker]

Don't quite yet run away and punish AvCanada with your disappearance.
It does nothing to solve the problems and Monty Python's RUN AWAY! combat scream didn't ever defeat a single enemy.
Its not AvCanada's fault that COPA won't make this right and its not their fault that some of us are upset about the show.
It was a lousy show of character for COPA and it was a lousy show of Dilbert Management doctrine, nobody really needed this.

I don't know: and I rather love some of the stuff on his website. I hope Jason doesn't mind me quoting this particularly delicious titbit:

Somehow, over the last couple of decades, associations have managed to portray themselves as the only form of passionate expression about aviation. Cheap marketing still works and emotion is a good tool to close the sale. Creating urgency and putting the pressure on sells a TON of memberships every year. Sheep always follow.

I think one of the large issues of our time is that we stifle open and honest communication due to the fact that things (and there are many more of that sort) like Doug's less than stellar/ textbook removal from COPA's board is not exactly a fame and glory item on the leaderships big accomplishment wall. Nothing beautiful about it. The members might be prevented from open communication and as we know, emails and other forms of communication are not reliable ways to get answers. Associations refer to this kind of thing as "little brush-fires" and they get put out individually. The rest is sat out and will eventually run itself to death. As long as there is no bigger fire and revenue is affected in only minor ways, who cares... Isn't that the truth?

Fact is that you don't just raise your hand and join COPA's (or any aviation associations) BOD, you either get invited or solicited to run for a seat, or you stay outside. Unless someone takes a sunny view on your "letter to the editor" it isn't printed. Unless someone takes a sunny view on your nomination, you won't be "enabled" or sponsored to join the higher ranks. If the big dogs don't want you around, you won't serve as a janitor anywhere close to them. You can volunteer, but you can't forget the chain of command and you won't last if you challenge the going agenda/ vision. Doesn't sound very "democratic" huh? Simple truth.

I would be a liar if I said that I haven't met extremely fine people serving their members in golden ways, but many times you may not wish to ask too many questions about the BS and drama that goes on behind the closed doors.

Example Of Power Demonstrations

About a year ago, I offered free advertising to one of the tiniest itsy bitsy pilot association we have here in the land of honey. I dealt primarily with volunteers in setting everything up. Everyone excited and positive! When the topic went up the ladder and hit the higher echelons of the association, a certain BOD member made it a point to decoratively and rather embarrassingly put the lead volunteer in their place. He referred to the association as "Mommy & Daddy" and to the ones offering their services up, as the "children". He literally (in writing) told me that the children had overstepped their authorities and competencies and had to be punished, hence I was prohibited, by threat of lawsuit, to advertise/ promote the association for $0.00. True story. A healthy back and forth ensued after everyone had been properly spoken down to and suddenly the emails arrived in the associations mother ships legal department. All to make a point and exert power. Not other reasons. I did share the story with quite a few members and the outfall wasn't pleasant, despite not enough of an issue (see brush-fires) to be sued by a bunch of party clowns.

I am glad AvCanada keeps the topic open and doesn't listen to the backseat moderators trying to get it shut down, at least between people (members and non members) who care about more than COPA's revenue numbers and super star status, there should be some honest talking. On many other websites, the forum owners might already be on the hook for loosing sponsorship dollars or being openly shunned by COPA and its followers for even allowing such sour spots to be discussed by the peasants. I wouldn't be surprised if that already happened, but I remember well a time when I was a finalist for an associations executive director position and told to "keep a lid on things" on my website, as it may "damage my outlook". Its quite funny when the true colors show and you get told by board members that your future job will entail to "shut members up".

RE: Good Discussions

I'd submit that a healthy and good discussion requires mutual respect and allowing other people to have their opinion and experiences and share those. Mutual respect doesn't come from anonymously attacking a person who puts their name under their writings and has nothing to hide or lie about. Some communicate lengthier or shorter, some soft-spoken, some bluntly and terribly honest. Most don't communicate at all, some will throw their hands up and scream and whine about wasted time.

Fact is that no honest answers can be extracted from COPA's leadership, nobody is willing to take responsibility and come out admitting that what was done, was wrong. Simple fix: You want Doug off the board, reset everything and do it the right way, not by a fly by night stunt. Charge him with something he did that warrants expulsion from that board. Then prove and argue your case and the members will run him out of town. We see the same out of every other association in the aviation world. Instead of responsible and transparent behavior, members get told to pay and shut up, while non members get told to just shut up. A perfect example of the tail wagging with the dog. "Mommy and daddy want you to clean up your room and keep your nose out of business that isn't yours. Let the adults deal with it. Oh... you went to the potty... good job! Here, have a cookie! Did you renew your membership yet?"

Its important to point out what a tremendous insult of intelligence is happening when this goes down unchallenged. The damage from this is so bad, we won't be able to fix it. I am 39 years old and went through association politics 101 for the last 8 years of my life and I can tell you dozens of people who will not ever find themselves as members or servants of associations acting like this. We can't pull stunts like this and expect not to have questions on it. For outsiders looking in, it looks like a bunch of idiots fighting and starving over peanuts, when the walnut basket is overflowing and the coconuts are falling out of the sky. Regulators and citizen groups exploit and use our communities dysfunctional nature against us, every day. Our guys recently were caught being so busy patting their own shoulders that they promptly overlooked (and had to be made aware by the press about it) a new rule that affects thousands of medical holders.

Our new generation of aviators is reading and they are looking for ways to be involved and active. These people can be made or invited/ triggered to be great activists and advocates if we manage not to burn them out the door in the first two years. They are just like the rest of us, maybe a bit more direct and blunt at times, but still part of our family.

As much as we want to believe that everything is just fine and clear as day, it really isn't.
Until we can acknowledge this minor fact, we're building on sand.

There, Pavese, my credibility should now be properly shot, if there ever was one in your book.

Happy Flying!

Jason

[PilotDAR]

Firstly, ScreaminBanshee, I really liked your January 07 post. I don't completely agree with all of it, but I really like it none the less. To misquote a historic American, "I may not agree with what you said, But I'll defend your right to say it".

My considered choice is to not fund COPA at this point, as I do not believe in the direction I have seen them take (or indeed not take) on certain issues which I know would be of interest to many "grass roots" members here. So, I will criticize from the outside. I was a member for decades, but not now. I will sure reconsider, when I am aware of change in COPA, and I have discussed this with Doug Ronan many times. COPA has the opportunity to make themselves relevant with me - right now, they are failing. If, in that failure to me, they are relevant to all of their other members, the power to them, I can stand back, and take care of my own aviation interests.

But, I very much agree with ScreaminBanshee's (and other's) theme that we have to do something. So, with the time I do not spend with COPA any more, I participate here, and two other selected forums (though this one the most). That participation will include my contributions of bits of wisdom and experience, as I have it to offer. Yes, I did volunteer to sit on committees for the old COPA, (Herb Cunningham days), and I wrote articles for the COPA pages to report the outcome. Now, AvCanada readers get some of that first hand, and with interactive comment and follow up sometimes.

Told me that COPA wouldn't help and we were on our own. How he was busy dealing with important, federal matters, and local stuff was too small. (Actually I listened to a 30 minute lecture on how important the important federal matters he was dealing with were.)

Yes, I read that COPA is dealing with important matters at a federal level

"COPA member input sought on Private Operator Regulations
COPA
If you are considering building an amateur-built turbojet powered aircraft such as the new Sub-Sonex aircraft, flying an aircraft that is capable of flight above 29,000 feet, or would like to conduct an operation where special authorization may be required — such as no alternate IFR — you should make your concerns known to Transport Canada."

I really wonder what portion of COPA membership dues come from members owning or flying amateur-built turbojet powered aircraft through 29,000 feet. 'Sounds like CBAA territory to me. So, if COPA focuses on that type of operation, while completely overlooking the impact of regulatory changes for external loads, or noise and propeller changes, I suppose that's their decision to make. But I sure think it is a wrong one, based on the types of flying the COPA members I know do!

From my point of view, COPA could be relevant to me in any of three main ways: .

They could affect change at TC is matters important to light airplane pilots - I think it's been a while since I think anything meaningful happened there, but they must be doing something...).

They could provide insurance - Well, I know they do that, but it has never been attractive for either of my planes, and they outright refused to quote Teal coverage for another owner.

They do provide the COPA pages, but you know, I think I find most of what I need to read here, and a few other websites I frequent, so I'm no longer willing to pay annual dues for that paper, which I then have to recycle.

Personally, I am very open to contributing to a new entity (of totally revamped COPA), because yes, we need to pull together, for the common good.

And:

Well stuff like this is why I lurked and never joined AVCanada. Could have been a good discussion but I don't think I will be coming back due to the immature sniveling back and forth. Waste of time IMO. Can people not have differing opinions with out being sarcastically lambasted around here?

Indeed - pretty well the main reason that my participation in PPRuNe is very limited now. No one is better than anyone else here, we just have some different experiences, or a bright future, which us oldtimers should be nurturing with openness. I will only ever write here what I would say face to face....

[Tom H]

This discussion really needs its own thread.

Which I am starting here...viewtopic.php?f=54&t=93994

Time to move forward I beleive

Tom

[Docav8or]

FYI
Some interesting letters:

January 21, 2014

To Kevin Psutka, CEO, and the Board of Directors of COPA:

After careful consideration the Ontario Seaplane Association - formerly
COPA Flight 110 - has decided to resign from the Canadian Owners and Pilots
Association. This decision was carefully arrived at after months of
deliberation over the undemocratic fashion that the COPA Board and Staff
removed Mr. Doug Ronan as one of the elected Directors for Southern Ontario
by a technicality of not renewing his COPA membership. After repeated
rejections of requests for a detailed explanation of why our elected
Director was unlawfully removed, we cannot support an organization that is
not accountable for its action to its members. Many letters were sent to
the editor of "COPA FLIGHT" expressing concerns or comments about this
issue - not one of these letters was printed or even acknowledged. Numerous
members sent emails - some repeatedly - to the COPA Chair, Paul Hayes,
asking for clarification of what happened. Mr. Hayes has also been
approached in person by several members. All of these questions and
letters were left unanswered and members were told simply to refer to the
superficial and vague statement in the "COPA FLIGHT" newspaper and the COPA
website regarding Mr. Ronan's untimely removal. The silence is deafening -
if Mr. Ronan had done something drastically wrong or harmed COPA in any
way, a Board of Directors responsive to its members would publically and
thoroughly justify their actions.

Mr. Ronan has dedicated his life to aviation and worked very diligently for
all COPA members for 7 years until denial of his membership renewal
application by COPA CEO, Kevin Psutka. From COPA's very brief explanation
of this action, it appears that Mr. Ronan's only offence was revisiting
some decisions made by the COPA Board - including himself. The two main
issues were:


1. COPA's "new" insurance program changing to a new broker/underwriter:
Through interaction with members, Mr. Ronan saw some disturbing problems
with the new program. When these concerns were brought to the COPA Board
and the staff, they were categorically dismissed and ignored. Most of his
concerns have come to fruition - including a premature change in the
underwriter of the program.


1. General Aviation at the Toronto City Center Airport: again through
interaction with the members and new information, Mr. Ronan saw some
disturbing problems with COPA's approach and "support" of the "General
Aviation" cause at TCCA. When these concerns were brought to the COPA
Board and the staff, they were also ignored. Doug Ronan's concerns have
come to fruition - including a new "Draft Plan" for the TCCA released on
December 13, 2013, which outlines that our sector of aviation is
"declining". It basically says there is no real need to accommodate any of
us at the TCCA. The "Draft Plan" also suggests that runway 15/33 be closed
because there is not enough "small" traffic to warrant its continued
maintenance. Mr. Ronan's concerns and predictions are coming true. COPA
has been spending thousands of dollars of members' dues fumbling around in
court for almost two years with very little chance of a productive outcome.
Instead of being proactively involved in the new "Draft Plan," COPA has
fostered a confrontational and unproductive atmosphere at the TCCA that has
virtually guaranteed the extinction of our sector of aviation at yet
another Toronto General Aviation Airport!

In conclusion, the Ontario Seaplane Association - formerly COPA Flight 110
- is disassociating itself from the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association
for the blatant unaccountability and repeated disregard for safeguarding
the "Aims and Objectives" of COPA and its members.

With regret,

Brian R. Wendt
Secretary, Ontario Seaplane Association

[Docav8or]

And the COPA reply:

[quoteFrom: Kevin Psutka [mailto:KPsutka@copanational.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:58 AM
To: Brian Wendt
Cc: Lloyd Richards; Al Blakely; Brian Chappell; Bryan Webster; Earl
Kickley; Ernie Mclean; Frank Hofmann; Jean Messier; Jerry Roehr; John
Bogie; Paul Hayes; Phil Englishman; Ray Hawco; Tim Cole; Trekker Armstrong
Subject: RE: Disassociation of the Ontario Seaplane Association with COPA

Brian:

Thank you for the clarification on the status of the Flight. Since this
issue is primarily a matter of the Board of Directors, I will limit my
comments to those regarding my involvement and my role at COPA. As an
employee and not a member of the Board, it would not be appropriate for me
to comment about matters of the Board. The Chair will respond on its behalf.

I want to ensure that you have both articles that were published that are
related to the dismissed Director. They are attached to this message. One
summarizes the reasons for the Board's carefully considered decision to
take action and the other explains the relationship between the Board and
the CEO and staff.

I am sad to see the group disassociate itself with COPA, whose strength is
in the number of members. The group's access to support from COPA HQ and
insurance coverage has ended but more important is the loss of solidarity.
You raised the situation at Billy Bishop airport as one of the issues and I
would like to point out that as a result of the decision to disassociate,
both COPA and the Ontario Seaplane Pilots Association will likely be less
effective at resolving seaplane issues there. Airport management can
discount anything we say by pointing to our relationship and then say "why
should we pay attention to either of you?"

Regarding the two main issues you raised:

1. Mr. Ronan's insurance issues were not ignored. On the contrary, when
specific cases were brought to COPA staff's attention we worked with our
new broker and they in turn with the new underwriter to, first of all, get
the other side of the story and then to make corrections. As with any new
program and relationship, there are growing pains, but when the big picture
is considered, in terms of number of policies, successful handling of
claims, substantial decline in complaints from members and ultimately
achieving acceptable loss ratios, the program is a success. COPA staff
continues to carefully consider all issues brought to our attention,
working with our broker to investigate, resolve and explain this to the
complainer and others if necessary. COPA staff explained to both Mr. Ronan
and to the Board the complete information surrounding the issues brought
forward by Mr. Ronan. I would like to point out that, in addition to staff
and broker working to address Mr. Ronan's concerns about the cases he
cited, Mr. Ronan was also provided the opportunity to work directly with
our broker to discuss and resolve his issues with our program.

Our aviation insurance program is successful and perceived to be valuable
to the point that COPA was approached by the largest underwriter in this
sector of the business to get involved. There were many positive reasons
for making the move, including access to the insurance experience of AOPA
(see our press release
http://www.magnesaviation.com/copa/en/D ... %20AIG.pdf)
and an explanation in support of the Board's decision to accept their
offer is provided here
http://www.magnesaviation.com/copa/en/D ... r%20QA.pdf.
The program was reviewed by the Board at a recent Board meeting and
their
decision was to continue, including our relationship with the new
underwriter AIG.

2. The situation at Billy Bishop airport is not good for GA, especially
with Porter's expansion plan. After examining the issues, the Board decided
to support the Toronto Island Pilots Association (COPA Flight 32) to take a
legal approach since all non-legal efforts had failed to move airport
management to build, rather than discourage GA. The Board directed me to be
the point of contact for COPA on the issue, including dealing with airport
management and others, as well as to support TIPA's efforts. The Board has
reviewed the issue at each of their meetings and their direction to me
remains the same. The legal approach remains in place and will run its
course with our goal to impress upon airport management that GA has a
continuing role to play and indeed must be there, according to the
Tripartite agreement. Any interference or confusion by conflicting points
of view would not be in GA's best interest in resolving this matter. In
addition to legal pressure, I have maintained contact with management, most
recently resulting in a follow-up letter (see kp13085 attached) to a
discussion on the airport master plan. COIPA has been pushing for a plan
for several years and we are finally making progress. Now it is a matter of
influencing the words in the plan so that GA is accommodated to an
appropriate extent.

I urge your group to consider the need for a collective voice for our
sector of aviation and that you would reconsider the decision to
disassociate with COPA.

Kevin Psutka
President and CEO
Canadian Owners And Pilots Association
71 Bank St, 7th floor
Ottawa, ON
K1P 5N2

613-236-4901 (102)
F 613-236-8646
C 613-878-4901
http://www.copanational.org][/quote]

[Docav8or]

Random thoughts and opinions on the Psutka's response

- interesting that Doug Ronan was supposedly given "full access"
to the insurance company - 4-5 month after the underwriter wanted it!! and
the underwriter wasn't even present!!

Also the island airport situation is under control - the Draft plan for
the airport was released December 13, 2013 - Kevins contribution was to
"sort of" answer most of the Port Authorities questions from MAY 16 - on
December 3!!! 10 DAYS BEFORE THE REPORT IS RELEASED!! Answering time
sensitive questions from May in Dec - he's right on top of things!!

Just saying....

[AirFrame]

Too bad access to the insurance experience with AOPA wasn't enough to get them competitive rates. I saved $300 by going back to Marsh this year.