Temporary foreign pilots in 2013

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, in the case of the military pilots am I correct in saying that there is nothing illegal about the way it was done? I mean it's pretty clear that the LVCs and LMOs are not legal according to the laws and guidance that govern them, but is there anything illegal about the way foreign military pilots are brought in? And is there anything different about the way this is currently being done compared to previous decades? As far as I know there has always been an exchange of Air Force pilots between Canada/US/Britain/others.

Wait, there are two issues here. The fact that the RCAF pilots jobs were given to non citizens is allowed by the law. The Minister can allow it like I said. It's wrong but legal.

The LMO aspect of the thing is illegal in my view. To have an LMO approved, one must demonstrate that there are no qualified Canadians for the job. They must advertise for the position to demonstrate that they were unable to find qualified Canadian applicants.

Here is what the ad might look like on AvCanada:

"The RCAF is looking for pilots. Requirements: must have military background, be under 35, have at least 500 hours as PIC on supersonic jets operated by a NATO Member, must have flown one in the past 24 months"

How many Canadian applicants would qualify ? None, right, unless they were themselves recent ex RCAF pilots. So then the RCAF is cleared to employ those foreign pilots since the RCAF demonstrated that there are no qualified applicants in Canada. If this is legal, than soon, all RCAF pilots will be Czechs, Slovaks, Polish, British, Italian, Spanish, Latvian and from Malta.

In the same line of thought, if Air Canada, Westjet and all the other Canadian airlines began advertising for pilot position but asked as a pre-requisite that all applicants be already type rated and current on the type they operate, that would open the door for ALL commercial pilots in Canada to be TFWs.

So is it legal what they did ? You tell me.

The RCAF, as far as I am concerned, acted like Sunwing and the MND acted like Martin Eley, the DGAC at TC when he blindly gave all these foreign pilots FLVCs the regulations did not allow.

Edit: The exchanges were different. "Exchange" is the key word. A bit like "reciprocity". The pilots went to each others country to gain experience and learn the others' ways to learn to work together in cases they ever went to war together. But the exchange pilots remained at the employ of their respective Air Forces. The were there for a stage, period and often it was on a exchange basis. They were not taking anyone's job. They were not killing's a local kids' chance of making it in the RCAF.

[TheCheez]

I don't know specifically abut the ones in your document, but I do work alongside some current and former RAF guys at an RCAF squadron. This is just the way that I understand their situations:

Some are here temporarily, are not RCAF officers nor Canadian citizens. It's a similar arrangement to exchange pilots except we did not reciprocate. They're RAF pilots and report to the UK for big picture stuff: promotions etc. They are highly qualified and brought a level of knowledge/experience that simply didn't exist in Canada at the time but was in surplus in the UK.

A very small number sought citizenship and enrolled as RCAF officers. Based on their flying and military experience they were given credit for equivalent RCAF qualifications ie they don't do basic training and some pilot courses. These guys were qualified enough to be desirable immigrants but not enough for the loaner program(they would have taken training time/jobs away from Canadians) and, of course, they wanted to put down roots here.

I can subjectively say that I don't think anything fishy happened with the guys that I'm familiar with.

[Choppermech1986]

It's a global industry isn't it?? There's thousands of Canadian pilots and engineers working all around the world, and not all of them have lots of hours/experience. Are you going to boycott Tim's because they hire so many foreigners? Where do you stop?

Do you ask all of the Canadian pilots working abroad to come back to Canada and let let the younger guys of the country they are currently working in have a go, regardless of the work ethic of the unemployed locals?

I simply don't understand the agenda you're pushing here, nor can I see how it will benefit the Canadian aviation industry in years to come.

Unfortunately, progress means you have to change and adapt. Best you get on with it.

[ahramin]

Choppermech think a bit. It's a global world right? Policepersons, secretaries, welders, janitors, etc are all global jobs that exist in every part of the world. Why do we then have labour laws that say that you need the legal right to work in this country before someone can take these jobs? Why do we have immigration laws preventing anyone who wants to move to this country from just coming here and setting up? Why not just let anyone who wants to work here to move here and work at whatever wages they can get?

[Colonel Sanders]

Does this mean that we have to take Justin Beiber
and Celine Dion back?

[cdnpilot77]

Does this mean that we have to take Justin Beiber
and Celine Dion back?

I can't speak for Celine but the courts down there don't like egg throwing from mature adults apparently, we just might HAVE to take him back when he gets deported!

[Colonel Sanders]

the courts down there don't like egg throwing from mature adults

I suppose that's as good a defense as any.

[B52]

I recall being a foreign pilot getting my first work permit in Canada.
I had to take a jobs that NO other Canadian pilot would accept
and was a virtual slave. Despite that I quit the underbelly operators
and ended up in worse operations.

I did not have a choice until I became a landed immigrant.

I recall being treated like dirt by Immigration officials,
of Air Traffic Controllers who refused to communicate because I had a rather strong
accent from another English speaking commonwealth country.

I also recall how operators would force me to pay for my own instrument renewal
when their own aircraft were so unairworthy that inspectors refused to fly in them.

Now, I am optimistic that those operators are no longer in existence now but
I doubt that the industry is entirely free of them.

If you add up the total number of commercial pilots flying in Canada
the number flying with fresh foreign accents is really quite low.

When I listen to ATC, these days the odds of hearing "fresh" foreign accents is rather unlikely.

There are however a higher number of people like myself whose accents while still noticeable
no longer sound as though they just got off the boat.

By the same token, lots of Canadian pilots seek adventure overseas and everyone needs
to remember that one day, they could one day suddenly encounter personal circumstances
that force them to seek employment in another country and encounter the
anti foreign worker mentality.


I have no doubt that many foreign pilots in Canada don't to exactly want to be here
and everyone needs to show some empathy instead of bitching about foreign pilots.

Those who bitch about foreign pilots might well be on the receiving end in another country in the future
and just as likely to run into those who don't like foreign pilots stealing their jobs.

..

[GRK]

Hmmmm… the difference between a Canadian Pilot working overseas and a foreign one working in Canada is day versus night. The Canadians working overseas are needed as the country(s) they work in almost ALWAYS need them, they are available and very well qualified, the locals either aren't qualified yet or don't want the job. The foreign pilots in Canada ( the ones without landed imm status) are stealing work from qualified pilots who can't get work in their own country because of a corrupt policy and a few sleazy operators who take full advantage of that! Lots of back and forth between many posters on this but it's clear that Canada has the pilots and resources to put it's own citizens to work but refuses to do so. See how it's different?

[digits_]

Hmmmm… the difference between a Canadian Pilot working overseas and a foreign one working in Canada is day versus night. The Canadians working overseas are needed as the country(s) they work in almost ALWAYS need them, they are available and very well qualified, the locals either aren't qualified yet or don't want the job. The foreign pilots in Canada ( the ones without landed imm status) are stealing work from qualified pilots who can't get work in their own country because of a corrupt policy and a few sleazy operators who take full advantage of that! Lots of back and forth between many posters on this but it's clear that Canada has the pilots and resources to put it's own citizens to work but refuses to do so. See how it's different?

No, it's exactly the same. I assume you are referring to certain Asian and African operators that hire Canadians ? Apparently the Asian/African operators are convinced it's easier/cheaper to hire foreign pilots instead of training people from their own country.

Which is exactly the same thing Gilles is fighting against.


Morally, you should choose: either allow a global exchange of pilots, or keep every pilot inside his own country. Which option do you want ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I recall being a foreign pilot getting my first work permit in Canada
..

This is not directed against foreign pilots and never has been. For starters, I am an immigrant from Haiti. This is not about foreign pilots who come to seek work and establish themselves in Canada.

This is about Canadian employers who go to the Government of Canada and claim that they cannot find a qualified applicant in this country in order to favor a foreign pilot over a Canadian one. Any excuse to overlook Canadians is accepted.

Some claim lack of a type rating.
Some claim lack of fighter experience.
Some require a degree in test flying from the test flying University.
Others require fluent Mandarin as language requirement.

Any excuse made up to bypass a Canadian over whatever foreign pilot the employer is keen to hire seems to be accepted.

The effort put in convincing ESDC that the Canadian pilot is not qualified is a mere formality. Just put an ad on Job bank and on AvCanada for two weeks with whatever requirements you can think of and then go tell ESDC that no qualified applicants applied. Even if a dozen Canadian Mandarin speaking, fighter qualified pilots with a PHD degree from the MIT Test Pilot Academy did apply, how would ESDC know that the employer just didn't send their Resumes in the shredder ? They have to take the employers' word for it and have no way in verifying. Their normal manner to check is to look in the ESDC computer database to see how many Mandarin-Speaking Fighter Experienced Pilots who are Holders of a Degree from a Test Pilot Pilot University are collecting Employment Insurance in Canada. Their computer will correctly indicate NONE. That gives them the green light to issue the LMO.

If one of these pilots decided to contact Gilles Hudicourt who in turn would send this guy's Resume to ESDC to show them that this one guy was Canadian and filled all the requirements but wasn't hired, all the employer has do to justify not hiring this qualified Canadian is to tell ESDC that their inquires about this candidate revealed he had a character flaw. Why else would he be un-employed with all these qualifications ? They might even interview the guy for good measure.

It's all a great scam. It we let it continue, it wont be long before more and more Canadian employers find an ever increasing excuse to hire foreign pilots to take jobs that should go to Canadians.

Let's make a stand!

Except in very limited cases, to work as a pilot in Canada, one should at the very least be a landed Immigrant. And one should hold a Canadian Licence. Not an FLVC.

[Pop n Fresh]

Fluent Mandrin?

The ad posted here that turned into a big discussion, looking for guys that spoke fluent Mandrin was for a job in China. Unless you are referring to something else.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Fluent Mandrin?

The ad posted here that turned into a big discussion, looking for guys that spoke fluent Mandrin was for a job in China. Unless you are referring to something else.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.1152527

Mandarin required in worker permits for B.C. mine project

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A few Rationales given by LMO aplicants for needing to hire foreign pilots

Canadian Helicopters Ltd :

Entire Industry lacks experience

Canadian Armed Forces :

Now here is a good one. Sunwing and Canjet claim they cannot hire Canadian experienced aircraft captains because they lack a type rating, but the RCAF uses the exact opposite claim to justify hiring this highly experienced RAF NIMROD pilot who does not have a CP-140 qualification, but has many hours doing his job of Maritime surveillance. With "Minimal Training" he can be trained on the CP-140. I would tend to agree.

Mr So and so is an Experience RAF NIMROD aircraft commander and instructor pilot. With Minimal training he be employed as a CP-140 Aurora aircraft commander where his experience will be used to train RCAF long range patrol crews.

Sunwing's President once said that accepting an application from a Airbus pilot (or NIMROD) pilot on a B737NG (or CP-140 Aurora) was like receiving an application from heart surgeon when one actually needed a brain surgeon.

Just to show you. Whatever one writes on this LMO application as an excuse to justify a foreign pilot can and most likely will be accepted......

[Pop n Fresh]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.1152527

Mandarin required in worker permits for B.C. mine project

That calls for an updated Yakov Smirnoff. "Canada, what a country!"

[GRK]

Digits:

With all due respect, I think you miss the point. The Middle East, China, most of Asia, Africa and a few other places have almost NO local expertise to fly their own equipment. None…nada…zip…and are forced to supply foreign validated pilots to ensure their carriers are able to even operate, expand and make money. There are very few QUALIFIED local pilots as the training infrastructure simply doesn't have the ability to train them well enough to hop into any seat in a heavy jet right away. These Canadian (and many other country's pilots) are not stealing anything. The local boys and girls do eventually get there, but it's a long process. The FLVC issue in Canada is entirely different. Canada has unemployed QUALIFIED pilots available to work, but they are being scammed out of work by a loophole in the system that both the regulator and the Harper government have chosen to overlook and by all accounts (thank you Gilles) a few Airlines as well. It is illegal and highly unfair to those who are willing and able to work. To say it is the same is plainly wrong and you should take a stand yourself. Morally? I know where I stand on this issue…been there and where I work now (been away from Canada for 10 years) is great example of how the system can be good for both locals and foreign pilots. (no it's not EK) Please think carefully before you make a statement that the two issues are the same. Clearly they are not.
Fly Safe
GRK

[lilflyboy262]

Actually GRK, that is no longer the case in many of these countries.

The only way for foreign pilots who want to come into Canada with no previous experience working there is via an LMO. There is no way to tell the difference between someone who wants to live in Canada for the rest of their lives, or someone who wants to work there for 1-2yrs.
In blocking one, you block the other.
I find that incredibly rich if the person driving this thread, is also an immigrant.

After one year of working in Canada you can apply for a normal working visa which takes over 13 months to process at this current time.

Going back to the point about Canadians overseas.
I find the comments about the skill or labour levels come from pilots who have never done the expat thing.

For the application on the work permits, it is no different to what the OP talked about in a previous post.

They advertise the position with minimums that is impossible for any locals to have. Exactly what is happening in Canada. Other words, they are looking for experience.

As GRK just tried pointing out. There is no real "expertise" on type in the country. This must also be the case in Canada too?
The LMO is required to list the job to certain minimums that the applicant obviously has. They are required to then list reasons why any local applicants had there application rejected.
If no Canadians are available or want the position, then how is it stealing from a Canadian pilot?
Pilots that do not meet the minimum required need not apply. Just like any other job advert.
The job was never available to them in the first place.

To try and say on one hand that they could train suitable Canadian pilots to fill the post, rather than taking a foreign pilot, is no different to saying that in these foreign countries, they could train a local pilot to fill the spot that a Canadian pilot is taking. No different at all. Especially when the population can be as much as 3-4 times that of Canada's.

Nobody really likes having foreign workers in their country. I get that. I have been guilty of that too. But you have to remember that for most part, we are the pot calling the kettle black.

[digits_]

The Middle East, China, most of Asia, Africa and a few other places have almost NO local expertise to fly their own equipment. None…nada…zip…and are forced to supply foreign validated pilots to ensure their carriers are able to even operate, expand and make money. There are very few QUALIFIED local pilots as the training infrastructure simply doesn't have the ability to train them well enough to hop into any seat in a heavy jet right away. These Canadian (and many other country's pilots) are not stealing anything.

What would happen if no foreign pilots were allowed in Asia or Africa ? The local companies would invest in education (eg: pay money) for their local citizens. By working there as a foreigner, you are keeping this system in place that just bypassess the locals.

For the other part, lilflyboy262 explains what I mean.

[cdnpilot77]

What would happen if no foreign pilots were allowed in Asia or Africa ?

Then we would have many more Canadian pilots on the market in Canada, obviously.

But why is it relevant what they do in other parts of the world? We have the ability to effect policy as Canadians in only 1 country (Canada) in the best interest of Canadians. Saying we should do something because "they do it too" is way off the mark.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The only way for foreign pilots who want to come into Canada with no previous experience working there is via an LMO.........
......I find that incredibly rich if the person driving this thread, is also an immigrant.

An LMO is, in a formal manner :
1) A job offer to a Foreign Pilot from a Canadian employer.
2) A formal declaration by said employer to the Government of Canada that the employer has attempted to hire a qualified Canadian pilot or train one and was unable to do so for lack of a qualified Canadian pilot.
3) A petition from the employer to ESDC to allow a foreign pilot into Canada as a TFW instead of hiring a Canadian because there are no qualified Canadians to to fill the job offer the employer has.

I did not come here with an LMO. I arrived as an ATPL-rated Landed Immigrant. And I had to look for a job. I even did fire patrols alongside kids freshly out of flight school......