Why WJ Pilots lost all my respect

[KAG]

ok, Jan was an exceptional month and maybe not to be considered representative but...
Rouge 319 F/O.
101.5 hours, worked 12 days, that includes one 30 hour layover and counting the day off there as one of my work days. The rest single day pairings. 29 of those hours and 3 days were O/T, again, not typical.


I don't expect that schedule to stay that way forever but pretty good for now. Oh, and got 90% of what I bid for regarding days off. A 6 year f/o would have been 94 an hour to compare apples to apples to KAG's post.

That's awesome, seriously. I had heard that the rouge pilots were enjoying some good flying (we here you all over the Caribbean) how easy is it for you to trade or pick up ot?
We have a fairness component to our scheduling so we can't work day 8 uvf turns and call it a month, we'd get some lower credit multi days to build it up to 14. That's when flica is nice of you can trade away to get a more efficient schedule.
Honestly with your tier 3 doing short stuff and you guys getting high credit south trips I'll bet your schedule is amazing going forward.

[Bede]

I have a hard time believing that a 737 FO $135,000 wage is going to last forever, if you're competing with a 737 FO wage of $70,000 at a competitor. I'd like to believe that the 70K will rise to match the 135K but that's not really the way economics work, is it.

Encore is simply the tool to enable this.

A couple things to keep in mind. Pilot wages make up ~5% of CASM. A 10% paycut will only reduce CASM by 0.5% so it's almost inconsequential. Also WJ pilots are near the most productive pilots in North America. We have no DH pay, min credit, etc.

[Bede]

There's no disputing we work harder then anyone really. 80 hours of credit is hard time, very little natural block growth and no synthetic credit. As for working flica, guilty. I modify my schedule to maximize my time home. Also I chase single days, so not as much hotels or DH. Sure we have some crap pairings with crap credit and lots of rotting in hotels but your still going to get your days off.
I fail to see the problem here.

Am with WJ Maintenance and the Westjet pilot group are one of the most professional,courteous and Hard working group of individuals i have met and worked with no arguments what so ever ,never push Maintenance to Fix a snag quickly and in a short time and heck some pilots even offer to come and change a tire or two never seen that with any other company.They work hard for there Money they earn.

You don't allow non-licenced AME's to actually do it though, right?

Elementary maintenance. https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... a-2458.htm

[complexintentions]

A couple things to keep in mind. Pilot wages make up ~5% of CASM. A 10% paycut will only reduce CASM by 0.5% so it's almost inconsequential. Also WJ pilots are near the most productive pilots in North America. We have no DH pay, min credit, etc.

The percentage of cost that wages represent is irrelevant to my point, any astutely run company - which WestJet is - will never consider ANY cost savings inconsequential. It's one of the reasons they're successful, ruthless cost control. That's a pretty big gap between a 737 pilot at WestJet and a 737 pilot at one of the other operators, even accounting for the WestJet numbers possibly being inflated with OT or whatever. Note I didn't say I think the number is too HIGH - it's the fact it is much higher than your colleagues elsewhere that will invite inspection by the accountants.

And that was my point, the pay discrepancy between two wages for the same job. I don't dispute that WestJet pilots are productive, but I sincerely doubt they bring as much more value to the table than their counterparts elsewhere making a fraction of the wage. As much as I don't like it, I only see downward pressure on wages. And I do feel Encore will help accelerate that.

Complexintensions
Remember that 135k includes our ESP where as an AC t4 leaves out the pension. If it were included the AC pilots t4 would be much higher.

I wasn't really referencing AC, they have their own cost-buster underway with Rouge. I was trying to keep the comparison more apples-to-apples with domestically operated 737's. Don't forget, if you consider ESP as part of your wage, your employer most certainly does as well. And when they see that your competitors are paying a fraction to their pilots, and your own colleagues will accept a pittance to fly the Dash, well, what does it all add up to? Not a lot of leverage for the employees.

It's just a cycle that repeats, Encore is enjoying the "new-entrant" cost advantage, but the mainline's costs are increasing as the company matures (larger size, more employees reaching the higher end of the wage scale and so on). Expect the company to address that, is all I'm saying. I wouldn't go so far as to say I agree with the title of this thread, but I don't think the mainline pilots did themselves any favours by supporting the low-cost.

[yycflyguy]

Am with WJ Maintenance and the Westjet pilot group are one of the most professional,courteous and Hard working group of individuals i have met and worked with no arguments what so ever ,never push Maintenance to Fix a snag quickly and in a short time and heck some pilots even offer to come and change a tire or two never seen that with any other company.They work hard for there Money they earn.

You don't allow non-licenced AME's to actually do it though, right?

Elementary maintenance. https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... a-2458.htm

With the smiley face I think you are being facetious but just so it's clear:

(2) removal and replacement of tires, wheels, landing skids or skid shoes, not requiring separation of any hydraulic lines, on small privately operated aircraft

I don't think either TC or the public would be ok knowing that a pilot was doing that kind of maintenance work, supervised or not.

[yycflyguy]

ok, Jan was an exceptional month and maybe not to be considered representative but...
Rouge 319 F/O.
101.5 hours, worked 12 days, that includes one 30 hour layover and counting the day off there as one of my work days. The rest single day pairings. 29 of those hours and 3 days were O/T, again, not typical.


I don't expect that schedule to stay that way forever but pretty good for now. Oh, and got 90% of what I bid for regarding days off. A 6 year f/o would have been 94 an hour to compare apples to apples to KAG's post.

That's awesome, seriously. I had heard that the rouge pilots were enjoying some good flying (we here you all over the Caribbean) how easy is it for you to trade or pick up ot?
We have a fairness component to our scheduling so we can't work day 8 uvf turns and call it a month, we'd get some lower credit multi days to build it up to 14. That's when flica is nice of you can trade away to get a more efficient schedule.
Honestly with your tier 3 doing short stuff and you guys getting high credit south trips I'll bet your schedule is amazing going forward.

It wasn't long ago that A320 pilots made 30% more than what rouge pays to do the same type of flying in the same number of days contained within 90 hour monthly max. So now we brag about getting paid less for greater corporate productivity and a reduced lifestyle Pilots are weird.

[jetsetfly]

You don't allow non-licenced AME's to actually do it though, right?[/quote]

Elementary maintenance. https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... a-2458.htm [/quote]

With the smiley face I think you are being facetious but just so it's clear:

(2) removal and replacement of tires, wheels, landing skids or skid shoes, not requiring separation of any hydraulic lines, on small privately operated aircraft

I don't think either TC or the public would be ok knowing that a pilot was doing that kind of maintenance work, supervised or not.[/quote]

Hey as long as am signing out for the task either and am doing all the torquing on the wheel only thing the pilot has assisted me is on spinning the wheel so when i torque the tire its bearing sits well so now i dont think thats a big deal as long as am signing out for the snag am happy with the help as torquing a wheel with a 550 ft/lb torque and spinning it at the same time is no easy task so yes i appreciate the help and i set up everything myself as it is a messy job and again remember "i am the one signing out the task and not the pilot" hope you get the point

[Bede]

yycflyguy, yes I was being facetious. However, I have a friend who manually started an F28 (CRA) when the starter wouldn`t engage and they found out it would be a couple days before they could get someone out there to do it.

I would help out any AME`s who asked for help. They`re the unsung hero`s at most airlines (including WJ). I`ve offered to get my hands dirty a few times (replacing brakes is apparently really tough for one guy).

[lot lizard]

Bede, I agree with you 100% in principle. Your obviously a good person for wanting to get the job done and its good to see that attitude in aviation. It is almost mandatory to help the engineers when flying in up north or in remote, unsupported areas. That said, flying for an airline gets very specific duty wise and even though your intentions are good, they will burn you so fast if anything goes sour. It comes down to liability, if you have not been specifically trained to do a task that falls within your duties and responsiblities defined in your ops manual, then you are on your own.

Would you ask an engineer to help you out with flight planning or even jumping in the right seat to help with the pushback, engine start and taxi out while the FO is in the can taking a dump just so you can leave on time? It sounds silly but its the same thing. If you did that and you push on time, the FO gets into his seat for take off and everything is fine, WJ would just assume another on time performance.
If you did that and you scratched something, your are burnt toast! Good intentions are not a safe defense for your actions!!

Every airline will push to get the job done with minimal cost and they factor that in when they short staff on engineers, its risk assessment. If they take a delay or cancel a flight to do something properly then they have already hedged against that and that is the price they pay. Just spinning a tire to help an engineer may seem harmless but if that tire or brake fails in any capacity, you are just as liable as the guy signing the logbook. Dont ever bank on good will from an airline when it comes to liability and dollar 1!

If you ever seek maintenance advice enroute, you will probably see a disclaimer at the end of the message stating that the final authority rests with the captain or something to that extent. There is a very good reason for that. If you do want to help out, get an acars printed message from the top of your flight ops management specifically authorizing you to help in that specific task. If you dont feel comfortable with asking them then you should not be doing it.

I'm just saying this so you are aware of the implications of stepping outside the box. Finally if your buddy had injured himself doing a manual start on the F28 and was unable to fly again, he would not get 1 cent in insurance or disability from anyone for his actions. Most accidents in this industry are the result of some good people with good intentions to get the job done, dont be one of them!

Safe flying

[Bede]

Lot lizard,

That was a thought provoking post, but I respectfully disagree.

It comes down to liability, if you have not been specifically trained to do a task that falls within your duties and responsiblities defined in your ops manual, then you are on your own.

Employees are covered through their employers insurance policy. Usually (depending on the exclusions in the insurance policy) if there is an accident the employee is covered unless acting ``outside the scope of employment``. From my understanding, this is given quite liberal interpretation and is usually restricted to doing something with company property that you weren`t supposed to such as taking the airplane for a joy ride.

Would you ask an engineer to help you out with flight planning or even jumping in the right seat to help with the pushback, engine start and taxi out while the FO is in the can taking a dump just so you can leave on time? It sounds silly but its the same thing.

It`s not the same thing. The aircraft is a two crew aircraft by law. There is no law against having a labourer assist a licenced AME.

Just spinning a tire to help an engineer may seem harmless but if that tire or brake fails in any capacity, you are just as liable as the guy signing the logbook. Dont ever bank on good will from an airline when it comes to liability and dollar 1!

That`s incorrect. Negligence has four elements: duty of care, breach of the duty, proximity and damages. An assistant to a professional, especially an untrained one, under the direction of a professional would owe no duty of care to anyone- that would be owed by the airline. Furthermore, there could be no breach of that duty because the person would not be acting in any professional capacity. Likewise, proximity would be limited to the engineer signing it off.
[/quote]

If you ever seek maintenance advice enroute, you will probably see a disclaimer at the end of the message stating that the final authority rests with the captain or something to that extent. There is a very good reason for that. If you do want to help out, get an acars printed message from the top of your flight ops management specifically authorizing you to help in that specific task. If you dont feel comfortable with asking them then you should not be doing it.

I have never seen anything like that before.

Finally if your buddy had injured himself doing a manual start on the F28 and was unable to fly again, he would not get 1 cent in insurance or disability from anyone for his actions.

You might be right on that one, but I know next to nothing about WSIB. I also agree with you that airlines need to staff their operations properly- we certainly do, but in this case, it`s usually just a personal favour (like pushing a wheelchair, etc).

Have you ever heard of a case where, let`s say, someone is being a good Samaritan, or helping out, screwed something up, and was sued. I hate our litigious society as much as anyone, but many of these stories are urban legends or greatly embellished (woman who spilled hot coffee). (Someone at work said we have to throw our sandwiches out instead of giving them to a shelter because we could get sued).

Cheers,

[Bede]

I did some more reading about scope of employment. This comes up a lot. A lot of pilots think that if we break an SOP, cause an accident, we have no liability insurance or legal protection.

From: Danicek v. Alexander Holburn Beaudin & Lang, 2011 BCSC 65 (CanLII)

From As a threshold matter, “[t]he expression ‘scope of employment’ cannot be accurately defined, because it is a question of fact to be determined according 734 to the peculiar facts of each case.” Tarlecka v. Morgan (1932), 125 Ohio St. 319, 181 N.E. 450, paragraph four of the syllabus; Calhoun v. Middletown Coca-Cola Bottling Co. (1974), 43 Ohio App.2d 10, 13, 72 O.O.2d 158, 160, 332 N.E.2d 73, 76. Generally, “[c]onduct is within the scope of employment if it is initiated, in part, to further or promote the master’s business.”Martin v. Cent. Ohio Transit Auth. (1990), 70 Ohio App.3d 83, 92, 590 N.E.2d 411, 417. Ordinarily, an act committed by an employee when he is off duty is not within the scope of employment. Biddle v. New York Cent. Rd. Co. (1930), 43 Ohio App. 6, 8-9, 182 N.E. 601, 601-602; Knecht v. Vandalia Med. Ctr., Inc. (1984), 14 Ohio App.3d 129, 132, 14 OBR 145, 147-148, 470 N.E. 2d 230, 233. An exception to this rule is where the employee has a duty to perform in furtherance of the master’s business after working hours and performs that duty, causing injury to a third party. Biddle, 43 Ohio App. at 8-9, 182 N.E. at 601-602. Still, an employee is acting outside the scope of employment where the act has no relationship to the employer’s business or is so divergent that its very character severs the employer-employee relationship. Thomas v. Ohio Dept. of Rehab. & Corr. (1988), 48 Ohio App.3d 86, 89, 548 N.E.2d 991, 994.

[Shady McSly]

Bede, that post = you're fired.

[bogey]

Why are Air Canada pilots applying at WestJet? I've heard of quite a few lately making the switch.

I don't get it.

[rudder]

Why are Air Canada pilots applying at WestJet? I've heard of quite a few lately making the switch.

I don't get it.

$$$ in the short term.

If a pilot were 35 or younger they should stay at AC even as a new-hire since attrition and growth will eventually see them in the left seat of a WB. At 40+ you would probably make more over a career at WJ (NOT Encore) even with a long wait to the left seat as you can see a six figure income by year 3 with O/T.

[The Raven]

Why are Air Canada pilots applying at WestJet? I've heard of quite a few lately making the switch.

I don't get it.

I just checked the list of Air Canada pilots moving to inactive status over the past year. I can only see 2 resignations. Those 2 pilots had very junior seniority numbers, so I would hazard a guess they were only on the property a couple of months. I would assume they have gone elsewhere to fly, maybe to Westjet. A couple of pilots have been fired as well. Maybe they've gone to Westjet.

So let's assume that the 2 pilots that resigned after a couple of months at Air Canada and the 2 pilots that got fired all went to Westjet. That's 4 pilots out of over 3000 total Air Canada pilots. Hardly a mass exodus.

By the way, when I applied to Air Canada 35 years ago I also applied to CP Air, Wardair, Nordair, and any other airline I could think of. Air Canada hired me, but my application was still on file at the other airlines. Doesn't mean I was applying to them after Air Canada hired me.

[altiplano]

That's 4 pilots out of over 3000 total Air Canada pilots. Hardly a mass exodus.

I heard of one that went back to a corporate thing and someone else that went overseas.

I think the information on AC pilots moving to WJ is greatly exaggerated. (read: FABRICATED)

[pelmet]

So let's assume that the 2 pilots that resigned after a couple of months at Air Canada and the 2 pilots that got fired all went to Westjet. That's 4 pilots out of over 3000 total Air Canada pilots. Hardly a mass exodus.

What did they do to get fired at AC?

[The Raven]

So let's assume that the 2 pilots that resigned after a couple of months at Air Canada and the 2 pilots that got fired all went to Westjet. That's 4 pilots out of over 3000 total Air Canada pilots. Hardly a mass exodus.

What did they do to get fired at AC?

I don't know. Line pilots are not privy to that information.

[yycflyguy]

Unless you know them.....

[EatSleepFly]

Well boys. Anyone who votes YES to a concession contract is a fool. 41% of you clearly were as you are making record profits.

The Air Canada boys although not the best contract didn't give any concessions and made a lot of gains.

I hope you smarten up. Look up your management salaries at WJ they have increased exponentially. While yours will go down unless you SMARTEN UP

Stop bringing the industry and wages for our profession DOWN

Look at Southwest Pay.

Substantially higher than yours... Yet you still think you need to take a concession? C'mon man!

[True North]

Well boys. Anyone who votes YES to a concession contract is a fool. 41% of you clearly were as you are making record profits.

The Air Canada boys although not the best contract didn't give any concessions and made a lot of gains.

I hope you smarten up. Look up your management salaries at WJ they have increased exponentially. While yours will go down unless you SMARTEN UP

Stop bringing the industry and wages for our profession DOWN

Look at Southwest Pay.

Substantially higher than yours... Yet you still think you need to take a concession? C'mon man!

Ah... I think you're about 10 months late with your rant.

[yycflyguy]

The Air Canada boys although not the best contract didn't give any concessions and made a lot of gains.

Debatable....