WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

[bmc]

I think there must be two different Facebook apps out there, from reading this thread. The one I use is closed to my friends. I post all kinds of stupidity, comments and observations. It appears, from this thread, that there's a different Facebook that is connected to Canadian media desks for the whole world to see. On this one, apparently, news sources wait for status updates, particularly from Calgary based captains. This version of facebook, which I am unfamiliar with, is used by conspiracy theorists with too much time on their hands.

[Castorero]

Reading the comments on this thread, in particular the ones that were removed, illustrates perfectly the reason why she likely chose to respond publically instead of “brushing it off”. Because it’s still an issue.

She’s a Boeing 737 Captain with 17 years of flying experience- I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that she’s been subject to more than her fair share of offensive remarks and off-colour jokes. Just a hunch. As a sweet young thing, perhaps she was able to laugh them off or ignore them like a good girl but here’s the thing about time and frequency- they make you grumpy. The whole conversation about whether or not she should have kept it to herself completely misses the point- it’s not a decision she should have had to make in the first place.

I say good on her for having the courage to out this guy and start a national conversation on the subject. And good on Westjet for backing her up. What an embarrassment that some of her fellow pilots and colleagues here on AVCANADA can’t do the same.

@ Stu Pidasso- if “Captain Two Names” was only thinking of herself, she would have thrown it in the trash instead of going public and subjecting herself to the kind of backlash witnessed here. As for the “who cares?” crowd- if you don’t care, then don’t post.

Couldn't have said it better myself... there are elephants in every room and talking about them leads to changes in attitudes, in time.

Castorero

[Stu Pidasso]

Unfortunately the one missing the point, is yourself. There is REAL harassment that does go on and this isn''t even in the ball park.

[Meecka]

Women of Aviation Worldwide Week.....

I know this is a tangent to the thread, but I am curious.... Since when is Pilot the only aviation job out there? I'm constantly amazed that when there are these kind of events held the focus is on pilot, and pilot only. "Lets get more girls flying!" I never hear or see "Lets get more girls maintaining".

On topic... you would be disgusted at some of the crap that has come out of peoples mouths when they find out I am an AME. Not only from men, more often than you would think from women which just irritates the bejeezus out of me. To be honest I've just come to expect it as part of me being who I am doing what I do. Most of it I ignore as not being worth my energy to respond to, if its particularly offensive then we're going to have words, and I don't care what gender you are.

[complexintentions]

Not sure what your point is Meecka, since you give no hints as to your gender or what we're supposed to be disgusted about. But we promise to try and be outraged it you just spell it out for us.

One of my sisters is a nurse. On her entire wing, there is one male nurse. Who is constantly teased, poked fun at, and just plain harassed - by his colleagues, by doctors, even by patients he's caring for, who ask why wasn't successful in becoming a doctor and the like. (?!?)

Does he let it get to him? Well, no. He's cheerful, cares about people, loves his job and doesn't do it to try and prove some point about his gender being in a decided minority in his chosen vocation. He's professional and just brushes it off, like the verbal pocket lint it is. I'm pretty sure he's never posted any of the comments pointed at him on Facebook. He can't be bothered, he's too busy doing something he's passionate about.

Whom do you think has my respect, the nurse or the pilot?

People need to get a grip. Stu Pidasso is right - this doesn't even make the grade as harassment. The napkin writer wasn't threatening to go all Silence of the Lambs on the Fair Lady, he was just being a common bigot. Boring and old-fashioned, but not illegal or even against the terms of his ticket. I may find his views distasteful but I find the idea of trying to somehow force him to think a certain way, even more so. Groupthink is terrifying and Facebook is the ultimate example of such.

And no, endless "conversations" about things do not convert small-minded people. The only result in is a lot of pointless chatter. Prejudices and stupidity have no cure and cannot be regulated away.

[ahramin]

Complexintentions,

You are very correct in saying that this particular nutjob isn't the problem. He's easy to ignore, and not in a position to make decisions that affect a large number of people. But the roadblocks we're hitting on the way to gender equality are no longer individual people with evil in their hearts trying to oppress women. The problems are attitudes and norms that most people don't even realize they have. The good news is that unlike trying to change some nutcase's mind, changing people's unconscious attitudes is not that hard. You just need to make people realize that they do make decisions and judgements based on unconscious assumptions, and then make them realize what those assumptions are.

Think about this little tidbit: In business careers, likeability is strongly correlated with success for men, and slightly negatively correlated with success for women. In other words being a personable fellow able to get along with people helps your career (makes sense), but being a personable gal hurts it. Why would that be? It's not because the evil bosses are plotting against womankind. It is because managers have to make judgement calls about who is capable of leading a team, making tough decisions, etc, and they make unconscious (usually false) assumptions based on traditional roles for women. They don't know that they are making biased decisions that end up excluding some of their best talent, but they are.

All this to say that no, this napkin note isn't a big problem in the gender equality struggle. But it is an excellent opportunity to say what needs to be said, and get people thinking about the real problems.

[crazy_aviator]

With my 7 yr old daughter, Ive managed to change 1.5 diapers, SOO, I would classify myself as an emerging metrosexual, total equality, politically correct, non male chauvanist, , white skinned hetero-male !

[crazy_aviator]

oops, 7 MONTH old

[ahramin]

Don't worry crazy, we won't tell your wife.

Why is it that we think changing diapers is a woman's job anyway? What is it about that particular job that requires skills so few men apparently possess?

[AirFrame]

Best response possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1feazmJ2 ... e=youtu.be

I happily support women entering aviation... What I don't like is reverse-discrimination against men. We're going for equality, aren't we? Why do we need a women-only event?

[Sleeve of Wizard]

Best response possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1feazmJ2 ... e=youtu.be

I happily support women entering aviation... What I don't like is reverse-discrimination against men. We're going for equality, aren't we? Why do we need a women-only event?

As a "woman in aviation" myself, I agree with you 100%. I can remember wanting to be a pilot from the age of 4 or 5. This was over 30 years ago, so I'm assuming there were fewer women flying then. In fact, I never met another female pilot until I had my private licence. I somehow didn't see it as something boys did, it was something I wanted to do.

I think it's imortant that parents/educators ensure that both boys and girls know that they can have any career they can dream of. I don't understand why it's important to actively recruit women to aviation. Nor do I think it's important to celebrate the fact that we can do the same job as men do.

Girls are less attracted to careers in construction/aviation, while boys are less attracted to esthetics/nursing for example.

Having said all that, over the years I have been a "target" of all sorts of rude comments and discrimination. I don't think that increasing our numbers is the solution. I think people need to change their attitudes. (and attitudes in the flight deck have largely changed already).

[Meecka]

complexintentions... For the record, gender is female. Wasn't looking for your outrage, or your sarcasm for that matter. No, I won't spell things out for you either. Thats the point. I actually agree that posting the note on the internet will change /solve, nothing. All women involved in aviation will end up having to deal with someone who thinks they have no buisness being there. You just have to ignore the majority of it as closeminded bs.

[crazy_aviator]

Im afraid that the women's liberation movement has gone too far,,, Society and men in general have progressed fairly well WITHOUT a knife to the throat!! I'm totally for EQUALITY in the workplace and neither race nor sex now anything else be discriminated against but when we as a society go too far the other way ( Quotas and shoving people into positions where they are NOT capable or pandering to minorities in an UNFAIR way (aboriginals-tax exempt status, unequal french language laws) then this equality thing has gone too far and in fact certain women's libbers are shooting themselves and the fairer sex in the foot !!! I Am 100% for women in ALL positions in aviation

[Donald]

Best response possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1feazmJ2 ... e=youtu.be

Except that Lisa Raitt is in the video....

[shimmydampner]

Lack of female empowerment and equality is still a big problem in our society, even if they do have the vote. This country would be much better off - for both men and women - if we dealt with them instead of pretending that it's only the odd religious nut with extreme views who has a problem. I've already deleted a few stupid posts from this thread but maybe I should have left them to demonstrate that we still have a problem.

Because of the way we raise our girls, it's rare that they consider pilot as a career. Even when they do, sometimes we make it very hard for them for the sole reason that they are girls.

Think about how differently we treat girls from boys. We set up these problems from the time a kid is conceived.

The thing about equality is that outside of a sort of nebulus construct (noble though it may be) it doesn't actually exist. As unsavoury a reality as it may be for the white knights here, males and females on average, are not equal. That's not to say that one or the other is superior or that both shouldn't have equal opportunity to pursue their interests, but generally we're different in a number of ways that leads to advantages and interests in different areas. That's not opinion, it's scientific fact.

I'm curious to know what "these problems" are. Last I checked women have the EXACT SAME rights as men in this country. They include the right to hold whatever ridiculous belief or opinion a person might want, even it's offensive to others. That's the other thing about equality and rights: you can't have it both ways. Just because you believe your opinions are more highly evolved than someone else's doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to their's even if it is offensive to you. Classifying a person's opinion as a "problem" because it's offensive is philosophically no different than that person suggesting that women don't belong in a cockpit. Better to just ignore such opinions

[Flybabe]

...
I'm curious to know what "these problems" are. Last I checked women have the EXACT SAME rights as men in this country. They include the right to hold whatever ridiculous belief or opinion a person might want, even it's offensive to others. That's the other thing about equality and rights: you can't have it both ways. Just because you believe your opinions are more highly evolved than someone else's doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to their's even if it is offensive to you. Classifying a person's opinion as a "problem" because it's offensive is philosophically no different than that person suggesting that women don't belong in a cockpit. Better to just ignore such opinions...

Maybe I ( regardless of being a pilot who has been in this illustrious industry for 21 years this year, 17 years professionally) am totally missing something, because this ^ is how I feel about it.

[snoopy]

Women of Aviation Worldwide Week.....

I know this is a tangent to the thread, but I am curious.... Since when is Pilot the only aviation job out there? I'm constantly amazed that when there are these kind of events held the focus is on pilot, and pilot only. "Lets get more girls flying!" I never hear or see "Lets get more girls maintaining".

On topic... you would be disgusted at some of the crap that has come out of peoples mouths when they find out I am an AME. Not only from men, more often than you would think from women which just irritates the bejeezus out of me. To be honest I've just come to expect it as part of me being who I am doing what I do. Most of it I ignore as not being worth my energy to respond to, if its particularly offensive then we're going to have words, and I don't care what gender you are.

@Meecka

Women of Aviation Worldwide Week is not about just pilots. We take people flying as a catalyst - to inspire them and to get their attention. You come to my event you will see a lot of maintenance. All the maintenance techs on the Seaking are women. UFV. BCIT. One of our sponsors is a helicopter maintenance company. And ATC. YVR Airport Authority And all kinds of other stuff. If you watched any of the interviews I always make a point to include ALL vocations, and particularly maintenance as I feel it is important. So if you'd like to know more, come to my event this weekend! Rain or shine, girls and women of all ages (and their families) are flocking to the airport to discover aviation for the first time.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[aviate_77]

This letter from a passenger is pure BS. If left and right seat are both females, who cares? They pass all the same tests as all of us, and they are fit for the job. Carry on idiot passenger...

[crazy_aviator]

“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart

Love that and kudos to you for your positive activism !!!!!!!

[snoopy]

@crazy_aviator Thank you!!!
Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Stu Pidasso]

The Female Pilots that have the respect of their peers, do "The Job" and go home, just like everyone else. They aren't out flag waving the "Be All You Can Be" nonsense.

There has ( it is slowly changing ) been a huge double standard. In the days when the Airlines were smaller and the number of Female Pilots were substantially less, it took courage to face the weak links. Failing a Female Pilot would put the Check Captain in the path of an oncoming freight train.

Everyone knew which ones were notorious for CRYING discrimination.

For the record - this has nothing to do with gender. There are "weak links" on both sides and someone has to be the Gate Keeper.

Unfortunately this case of running to Facebook and the media, like a 13 year old child, has done you a dissservice.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Interesting stat I came across. Number of female PPL's in 1970 6%, number of female PPL's in 2012, 6.8 %. Seems like we haven't come very far.

On a happier note some women have just started up a Women in Aviation chapter in Victoria. They started promoting their event the day before Mr. Dufous wrote his famous note. Initial reaction from local media was "Yawn" then when the incident went public they all wanted to talk to "women in aviation" . Their first event was very sucessful and the media attention gave them an extra boost.

[CpnCrunch]

Unfortunately this case of running to Facebook and the media, like a 13 year old child, has done you a dissservice.

I wouldn't say she was 'running to facebook'. Rather she was pissed off by the idiotic note and decided to vent and have a little fun at his expense on facebook. That's pretty much what facebook is for, in case you're of the older generation who hasn't used it yet

I actually find it quite ironic that avcanaders are complaining about this lady venting on facebook when you (mostly) guys are the biggest bunch of whiners I've ever seen in my life

[shimmydampner]

Interesting stat I came across. Number of female PPL's in 1970 6%, number of female PPL's in 2012, 6.8 %. Seems like we haven't come very far.

Very far towards what exactly? Is there some quota to meet? What if all the women who want to fly and have the resources to do so simply total 6.8% ?

[Stu Pidasso]

Unfortunately this case of running to Facebook and the media, like a 13 year old child, has done you a dissservice.

I wouldn't say she was 'running to facebook'. Rather she was pissed off by the idiotic note and decided to vent and have a little fun at his expense on facebook. That's pretty much what facebook is for, in case you're of the older generation who hasn't used it yet

I actually find it quite ironic that avcanaders are complaining about this lady venting on facebook when you (mostly) guys are the biggest bunch of whiners I've ever seen in my life

That is why Corporations have "Social Media Policy" and have terminated employees for inappropriate use.

Furthermore, there are businesses that make a living out of REPAIRING individual reputations, that have self destructed on Social Media.

All brought to you by the Adult Generation.