Flight schools and weather.

[shurshot17]

Just curious to what other people think about wind restrictions flight schools use on there students.

I got my PPL out of a small airport in the middle of no where saskatchewan. My instructor always gave me the choice if we should fly or not. Let me use my judgement. By the time I finished my PPL, I was comfortable to fly in most wind conditions that a Cessna 150 could handle. Worst I flew in was 25g32 with crosswind about 60 degrees off the runway.

Anyways, now that I am moving toward my CPL, at a different airport in a different province through a university program. They use Cessna 172 and they will not let you fly if wind is more than 15 knots. Today I was not allowed to fly because the wind was 9 knots gusting 15 and there was "To much cross wind"

Worked out to be about 8 knots crosswind.


Are schools preping new pilots only to fly in near PERFECT conditions?

Ramble over.

[FenderManDan]

There was a ton of rant here on avcan on that topic. The word on the street is that legal beagles and insurance companies are running the show. Unfortunately the end product of that school will suffer.

Good luck and try to be assertive, who knows it might work.

[nbinont]

Today I was not allowed to fly because the wind was 9 knots gusting 15 and there was "To much cross wind"

Yes, but what was the forecast?

[photofly]

9 knots of crosswind in Ontario is actually worse than 25G30 in Saskatchewan. Everyone knows that.

[nbinont]

Oh, right - how could I forget that? It must be all those big (not) mountains in Ontario that does it!

[Pop n Fresh]

I must be senile now. Wasn't there some requirement to learn cross wind technique during CPL training or was that just a flight school thing at the time?

The flight school I recall doing this now has a limitation on student/renters including those flying dual.

[Cessna driver]

The school i work at has max wind 15 knots for students with a SPP and anything after is limit of the aircraft. I love taking students into 15-20 knot x winds.

[shurshot17]

Today I was not allowed to fly because the wind was 9 knots gusting 15 and there was "To much cross wind"

Yes, but what was the forecast?

Forecast was excellent. Died down to 6knots by the time I would have landed anyways...

[MyMeowCat]

I think in From The Ground Up it said something about most GA aircraft are designed to handle something like a crosswind component of 20% of the stall speed so if that 15 knot wind ended up perpendicular 90 degrees to the runway while you are on short final it might be a problem.

During the crappy winter I found some places have rules like:

* temperature requirements --- I think it's like a cut off point of -20 degrees Celsius --- can't remember if it includes wind chill
* can't fly if ceilings seem low
* can't fly in any precipitation (so if there is even a few snow flakes it gets cancelled)
* can't fly in haze even if it is P20 SM visibility because it was considered flying in "cloud"

[Colonel Sanders]

They use Cessna 172 and they will not let you fly if wind is more than 15 knots

Heh. Every FTU is required by the CARs to state in their
OCS what their wx limits are, dual and solo. Your CFI
has been cautious when setting those limits because
there is no reward to him to produce a better product,
but penalty if the weakest students in your class crash.

And that's the problem with civilian flight training. Everyone
that walks through the door with cash in hand gets training
and a licence. Also, stick & rudder skill is not particularly
valued - that's a problem that CRM will fix down the road.
Far more important is your selection of white shirts, your
polished four gold epaulets, and your Ray-Ban sunglasses.

EDIT -- here is the relevant excerpt from a nearby FTU OCS:

Weather Minima:
Dual: Winds Forecast or reported surface wind not over 35
knots and max cross wind component - in accordance with
POH limitations

Solo: Winds Max cross wind component - 10 kts
Max surface wind - 20 kts

Note that the 172M POH does not specify x/wind limitations

Again, it's all up to the CFI. You don't like the OCS,
bitch to him about it and get it changed with TC, who
has to approve it. He's probably off somewhere in
the right seat of a Navajo, though, or looking at himself
in the mirror in his pilot costume.

[Shiny Side Up]

Every FTU is required by the CARs to state in their
OCS what their wx limits are, dual and solo.

One must admit that this is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't set ups. Its only real function is to make sure if anything happens at the school, they know where to lay the blame.

[trey kule]

I never knew this existed. Has it been a requirement for along time?

I see the dilemma. I would have expected FTU,s to try and deflect the potential liability by stating and using TCs regulations, and manufacturers' demonstrated xWind numbers.

It does seem like another case of a TC suggested get on board scheme..

[photofly]

426.61 Requirements for a Flight Training Operations Manual
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)
.
.
.
(i) the minimum weather conditions required for dual and solo training flights during day, night, VFR and IFR operations including:
(amended 2006/12/14; no previous version)
(i) minimum ceiling and visibility for local and cross-country training flights;
(ii) maximum cross-wind for conducting a take-off and landing; and
(iii) minimum temperature for flight training operations;

[Shiny Side Up]

At the end of the day, its the CFI's ass on the line. He/she can adhere to the limitations they set out for themselves or not. Who's going to know? If an airplane crashes, you either get in trouble for not obeying your self imposed limits, or for making your limits too high in the first place. The big issue is with a larger flight school, you're put in the position of not always being able to assess things yourself, so you got to put some guidelines in place for the peons. Naturally, the more restrictive it becomes.

[falcon50fo]

Get your licence at another flight school where the CFI has some balls to let students fly when its not perfect conditions.