Article and video from CBC

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azimuthaviation
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Article and video from CBC

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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Right - 406 ELT's aren't for the benefit
of the owner, they are for the benefit of
the government.
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Posthumane »

I'm curious how the 406MHz ELTs reduce the false alarm rate? If one is accidentally triggered by hitting the switch, or by the acceleration switch (maybe from a hard landing, parked aircraft being flipped by wind, ELT removal without turning it off, etc.) it will still send out a distress signal. I suppose one difference is that the ID of the beacon/craft is transmitted allowing an attempt to contact the owner by phone first to rule out accidental triggering. GPS slaving to the ELT would speed up the search but 406 ELTs are not required to have a GPS signal input.

On the other hand, since 406 elts do not transmit a signal in the vhf aircraft band, it may be harder for a pilot to realise that it was accidentally activated. The one time I had an ELT go off we knew right away because it drowned out the radio. We shut it off and notified FSS immediately. My new 406 unit only has a small LED notification on the remote.
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Colonel Sanders »

You misunderstand. Instead of the simple "siren" on
121.5 Mhz, you get an encoded value on 406 Mhz
which allows the gov't to point the finger at the owner,
which is convenient for the gov't.

As usual, the costs are transferred down to the taxpayer,
who already pays more tax money for less services. This
is more or less the theme for any government action.
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kev994
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by kev994 »

When a 406 goes off step 1 is to phone the owner and ask where his aircraft is. If it's in the hangar the search is over.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by iflyforpie »

Yeah.... except when the aircraft is airborne and the ELT accidentally goes off. Then the next of kin are notified before the plane even lands. That actually happened to a guy who used to fly in and out of here... absolutely devastating his family until he was back in communications range.
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Posthumane
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Posthumane »

Colonel Sanders, I understand the coded aircraft ID being transmitted from a 406 elt allows immediate identification of the owner, but once a false 121.5 siren was located they could send the bill to the aircraft owner anyway. Has this actually happened in Canada? I thought the policy was to only charge people for SAR services in the case og negligence or malice, not accidental activation.

Anyway, I could see how the "phone search" (i.e. calling the owner) could save on false alarms. Iflyforpie - what actually happened in that case? was the family notified of the signal and asked about the plane's/pilot's whereabouts? if so, that see,s reasonable even if it does cause the family to worry.

Btw, on a related note, I just installed an ack-04 combination 406/121.5 unit, and reading through the instructions it says the unit performs a self test when switched to "armed" mode, which includes 3 audio sweeps on 121.5 and one 406 test message. Does this mean the ELT can only be switched to armed mode from off in the first 5 minutes of the hour?
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azimuthaviation
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by azimuthaviation »

Posthumane wrote:since 406 elts do not transmit a signal in the vhf aircraft band
They still do, its still a very important aspect of the ELT.
Colonel Sanders wrote:the costs are transferred down to the taxpayer,
No the cost would theoretically (hasnt happened yet) be transferred to the aircraft owner, who may or may not be a taxpayer. The taxpayer is currently paying 47 million dollars a year chasing false alarms, however. Socializing the cost of SAR does not mean no one is paying for it. You of all people should realize that, I recall you describing your position on the political spectrum as "just right of Atilla the Hun."
Posthumane wrote:Does this mean the ELT can only be switched to armed mode from off in the first 5 minutes of the hour?
In theory yes, if it is transmitting 121.5. In practicality, chances are no one will even hear it and if three sweeps were picked up, no one would really think much of it anyhow. As far as the 406 MHz component, that is a little more complicated. If you are testing a 406MHz ELT, even if it is at the top of the hour, you have to phone SAR and let them know. It used to be a 1-800 number but that has been changed to a 613 number, long distance to some guy in Ottawa. Some ELTs, however, have the first two 406 bursts encoded as maintenance bursts. Therefore if a satellite picks up one of the first two bursts, they will know it is a unit being tested. Some ELT's do not have that feature and the very first burst is not a test burst but an actual distress signal. Not sure what the Ack model you have has. Might be worth checking.
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by CID »

I'm a Canadian taxpayer so what saves the "government" money, saves me money. I truly don't understand why some people insist on dividing "us" and the "government" in matters of finance. "I shouldn't have to pay for it...the government should pay".

??
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Posthumane »

azimuthaviation wrote:
Posthumane wrote:since 406 elts do not transmit a signal in the vhf aircraft band
They still do, its still a very important aspect of the ELT.
Well, combination 406/121.5 units do, but a pure 406 MHz ELT only transmits the digital signal on 406 MHz. These cannot be received by a standard air band radio. Not all new ELTs are dual band units.
azimuthaviation wrote:
Posthumane wrote:Does this mean the ELT can only be switched to armed mode from off in the first 5 minutes of the hour?
In theory yes, if it is transmitting 121.5. In practicality, chances are no one will even hear it and if three sweeps were picked up, no one would really think much of it anyhow. As far as the 406 MHz component, that is a little more complicated. If you are testing a 406MHz ELT, even if it is at the top of the hour, you have to phone SAR and let them know. It used to be a 1-800 number but that has been changed to a 613 number, long distance to some guy in Ottawa. Some ELTs, however, have the first two 406 bursts encoded as maintenance bursts. Therefore if a satellite picks up one of the first two bursts, they will know it is a unit being tested. Some ELT's do not have that feature and the very first burst is not a test burst but an actual distress signal. Not sure what the Ack model you have has. Might be worth checking.
The ACK-04 406 MHz burst on self test is not a distress signal, but is indeed a test burst so I'm not worried about that. The sweeps on 121.5 were more of a concern. FSS was calling around to local operators the other day because they heard a brief elt signal outside the standard 5 minute test window. I suppose to be on the safe side i could disconnect the antenna cable and feed the signal into a dummy load when i turn it on.
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by kamikaze »

"I'm a Canadian taxpayer so what saves the "government" money, saves me money. I truly don't understand why some people insist on dividing "us" and the "government" in matters of finance. "I shouldn't have to pay for it...the government should pay"."

Exactly.

Right now a bunch of people who'll never step anywhere near a small GA aircraft (the big mass of generic tax payers) are paying 47 million dollars because we don't upgrade our ELTs.

Of course the alternative is to force 406 installations ... in which case the people that use ELTs and related are the ones paying for it.

"User pays" is a pretty standard line for right-of-center thinkers, so I'm surprised to see some here that seem to be opposed.

Seems fair-er that way in the end, even though I gotta admit, I been too broke to put a 406 in my piper. I do have a 406 PLB however. And my old ELT did go off by accident once ... no Herc went flying though, they tracked it down to my plane and called me at home to come and take care of it. I was red faced, but no harm done!
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by azimuthaviation »

Posthumane wrote:Not all new ELTs are dual band units
Which one of these does not transmit on 121.5?

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/c ... elt-65.htm
Posthumane wrote: I suppose to be on the safe side i could disconnect the antenna cable and feed the signal into a dummy load when i turn it on.
Why is it being turned off anyways?
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Posthumane »

Any of the ELTs that are approved under TSO-C126 only and not TSO C91a. So, for example from the TC approved list, the EBC-406 models are 406 only, except the M models. Although I see in tso-c126 it makes mention that FARs require standalone 406 units to augment existing 121.5 installations, but this was from an older document dated 1992. I don't see mention of that in tso-c126a or anywhere in the CARs or associated standards.

Anyway the reason my ELT is off is that it hasn\t been turned on for the first time yet (maintenance still not done) but the manual also states the self test should be done every 3 months.

Timely addition - got a call at 1am today saying theres an ELT going off somewhere on my home airport that they are trying to locate quickly to avoid a herc getting dispatched unnecessarily from Trenton.
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Anyone here old enough to remember back
in the 1970's when the gov't made us all
install ELT's and they exploded and damaged
the aircraft?

Good business for AME's, I guess, repairing
the aircraft they damaged by installing ELT's.

We owners didn't think it was funny at the time.

I really wish the ELT had never been invented.
More nanny-state crap foisted upon us.

PS Taxiied in last night after an hour of touch
and goes with a student. One of your glorious
new 406 ELT's set itself off. No, the landings
weren't that hard. Phoned FSS.

What a piece of sh1t.
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azimuthaviation
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by azimuthaviation »

Posthumane wrote:the EBC-406 models are 406 only
No, they are not, they transmit on 121.5 as well.

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/pdf/EBC%2 ... MANUAL.pdf

SECTION 1
General Description:
The EBC-406 will radiate a distress signal on 406.028 MHz and
121.500 MHz.


Posthumane wrote:Any of the ELTs that are approved under TSO-C126 only and not TSO C91a
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... tm#551_104
Criteria for Acceptance for Installation

CAN-TSO C126
(amended 2009/12/01; previous version)

Acceptable, provided there is a 121.5MHz transmission that meets the requirements of CAN-TSO-C91a, as stated in section (e)(2) of CAN-TSO-C126.
(amended 2009/12/01; previous version)
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Posthumane »

Interesting, I stand corrected. That is good to know. I'm curious why some ELTs are marketed as dual band and others as 406 only then.
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by azimuthaviation »

Dual band and single band probably refers to the AM component, some transmit only on 121.5, some on 121.5 and the military 243.0.
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Re: Article and video from CBC

Post by Posthumane »

azimuthaviation wrote:Dual band and single band probably refers to the AM component, some transmit only on 121.5, some on 121.5 and the military 243.0.
Those are typically branded as Tri-band units, much like the EBC-406M (presumably the M is for military). I suppose it's just a difference in marketing. To clarify though, TSO-126C allows for separate 406 and 121.5 ELTs in the same aircraft to satisfy US FARs, but CARs require a single ELT to conform to both standards.
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