PPC training scenario?

[waverider]

If a commercial pilot just received a PPC on a piper navajo, what qualifications does he need to provide multi engine training or PPC training to another person in a commercial operation? curious

waverider

[SM16]

Would this still fall under the 50 hours in a multi type deal. Not needing a instructor rating, but I'm not sure about the PPC?

[Oxi]

There is no PPC for a Navajo so don't be fooled by an operator telling you otherwise. What you would have is a PCC showing that your company has a training program and you have competency on said aircraft. > I stand corrected about the PPC, thankyou iflyforpie

You would need 50 hours Multi Engine of which 10 hours on type with your CPL.

[iflyforpie]

There is no PPC for a Navajo so don't be fooled by an operator telling you otherwise

There is if you want to carry passengers and cargo in 703. Not all Navajos are LIDAR or jumper dumper machines.

[waverider]

There is no PPC for a Navajo so don't be fooled by an operator telling you otherwise. What you would have is a PCC showing that your company has a training program and you have competency on said aircraft. > I stand corrected about the PPC, thankyou iflyforpie

You would need 50 hours Multi Engine of which 10 hours on type with your CPL.

Has the 50 hours on type rule being around forever or is it a new rule and the 10 hours on type is it dual or pic?

thanks Oxi

[gaamin]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#425_21

[200hr Wonder]

waveride, to provide training you would need to meet the qualifications as spelled out in your companies COM. Check the training section and it will be clear. Something like Captain with a 100hrs on type or what ever the specification is. That is it, all other items are moot. The COM should be at minimum CARs requirements and then some so all you need to do is reference that. TC has approved it, so for your organization what ever is specified there in.

[trey kule]

and the 10 hours on type is it dual or pic?

Really? You think someone who has no PIC time on type (navajo)is qualified to insruct on it?

[Colonel Sanders]

I shouldn't mention this, but I give dual
instruction on types all the time, that I
have never flown before.

For example, a guy called me with a Steen
Skybolt. Had just bought it, needed some
dual. We jumped in, did a flight and it went
well. I liked it.

I do that all the time.

It's often impossible to find a flight instructor
with time on type if you're looking at anything
remotely interesting. So, I do a bit of reading
ahead of time to learn the systems, and check
myself out.

I figure we're less likely to have an accident
with me on board, as opposed to him just
trying it out by himself. Maybe I'm wrong.
41 years of flying so far, haven't dinged an
airplane yet.

Reminds me. A few years back, 1000TT
(all on 172) class 3 instructor was afraid
to instruct on a Piper Cherokee, which was
designed by Fred Weick to be the most
docile airplane ever. I was aghast. I told
him:

- less likely to carb ice
- no both fuel selection
- keep it over 80 mph with Hershey bar wing

and off he went.

I guess I don't fit into today's Brave New
World where pilots only fly one type, and
need six months of training to fly another
type.

Grip it and rip it, baby.

Somehow I have avoided flying 'ho's thus
far in my life, but let's say I was at a Central
America airshow (you know, with no laws)
and someone pointed me at a good 'ho. I
would happily jump in it and do some surface
acro during my checkout flight during the airshow.

Hell, I remember doing exactly that in a
Christen Eagle. I was at an airshow and
someone pointed me at his, so I checked
myself out in it, doing surface acro. Nice
airplane. Never flew one before. Many
years later, jumped in another one and
checked out two brothers from quebec
in theirs.

It's just another frikken airplane. You don't
need to be an astronaut to fly it.

[Pop n Fresh]

I should probably get a couple hours dual. Just because of insurance yes?
https://www.barnstormers.com/classified ... le+II.html

[trey kule]

It's just another frikken airplane. You don't
need to be an astronaut to fly it.

By your logic then, why does anyone ever bother to get a checkout?

[boogs82]

Probably because insurance companies want it done.

[trey kule]

Yeah, that is probably the only reason....random, non sensical requirement by the insurance companies.

[boogs82]

Yeah, that is probably the only reason....random, non sensical requirement by the insurance companies.

LOL. I'm just beating CS to his obvious answer. I could think of plenty of reasons why a checkout would be important. You know....like to demonstrate knowledge and proficiency on type.

[trey kule]

I dont like to second guess his response but I expect it would have more to do with a small tirade against TC, and of course the fact, that if we were all trained on tail wheels and in aerobatics, we would never require a checkout on any plane. Getting a check out is for sissies who just cant fly.
After all, if it has wings it is just a fricken plane, and any pitts pilot can fly anything with wings. Just read the book and hop in...what could possibly go wrong!

For the life of me , I cannot figure why the military has not caught onto this concept and eliminated type training for the 18's.. Heck, they are just a friggen airplane, and no problem for CS to jump into and fly.....he flys jets you know. And I am pretty sure, from the way he posts, he must have thousands of hours on them flying all over the world. Another foolish waste of taxpayers money .

And the airlines. Foolish buggers wasting money on checkouts. After all they only fly straight and level. On auto-pilot. How much training do you need to push buttons or touch screens anyway. According to Cs, the people that fly them are not real pilots anyway. So whywould anyone need training when they could just read the book and hop in..

I say boycott places like Flight Safety and Simcom....just give everyone the POH to read and cut them loose. Can't see a downside to that.

[Colonel Sanders]

Insurance companies are often quite bizarre.

Sometimes their requirements are much too
high, sometimes their requirements are much
too lax.

If you're looking to an insurance company for
guidance to provide you safety in aviation, all
I can say is that you have an awful lot to learn.

I say boycott places like Flight Safety and Simcom

Isn't that where the Asiana 214 pilots went for
training? I know that JFK, jr went to FlightSafety
for IFR training and he killed himself and his 2
pax trying to fly VFR at night.

read the book and hop in

So you're saying that you don't comply with
CAR 405.22?

405.22 No person shall conduct flight training in an aircraft unless the person is familiar with the flight characteristics, operating limitations and operational performance data specified in the aircraft flight manual or equivalent document.

Many of the active instructors here such as
myself are good customers of:

http://www.esscoaircraft.com/c-2401-civ ... craft.aspx

Some of us are even capable of reading. I suppose
that for people whom are not, being spoon fed
powerpoint slides would be required.

But seriously, folks ... don't you guys see ANYTHING
wrong with a 1000TT (on 172) class 3 instructor being
afraid of a Piper Cherokee?! I told him what he needed
to know in 30 seconds. You really think he needed to
go to FlightSafety for ground and flight training to
transition from a 172 to a Cherokee?!!

I remember the first time I flew a C185. Decades
ago. Crap wx. Delivery trip from Brampton to just
south of Leadville, CO. Jumped in, filed IFR, got
up on top of the clouds, nice flight. Howling crosswind
on the ILS into Flint, MI. No big deal. Fun. Wonderful,
docile aircraft. Maybe I didn't go to FlightSafety
or SimCom for transition training, but it seemed to
work out ok, all those years ago.

Aviation is a sad remnant of what it used to be.

White shirts, gold bars and harrumphing aside,
systems knowledge and stick & rudder skill are
what matter. If you have those two, you can fly
an airplane. If you don't have those two, I don't
care what big shiny building you spend a lot of
money at, it's not going to be pretty.

[trey kule]

Isn't that where the Asiana 214 pilots went for
training? I know that JFK, jr went to FlightSafety
for IFR training and he killed himself and his 2
pax trying to fly VFR at night.

Really? I expected better of you than to trot out two examples from the tens of thousands of graduates as indicative of the failure of these companies to train.


Complying with CARs. 405.777789768. Or whatever. I think you missed the gist of my post. Perhaps I was to subtle . So let me be clear.

I have zero respect for an experienced instructor who posts on here that getting checked out is for wimps. Real pilots check themselves out. That may be good for the ego, but bad setting an example for the younger generation, and, in general, really bad advice.

Yep, an instructor afraid to fly a cherokee...again....extreme example that I dont think is indicative of instructors in general. In fact, my experience is that most instructors will hop into pretty much any plane and think they can teach a transitioning pilot on it. And from your posts, it appears you are in that category.

If I understood correctly, the OP was wanting to know about teaching others, and further posted asking if the 10 hours on type had to be PIC.
Now, before you jump in to tell me that a Navajo is not a fire breathing dragon and that I must be some kind of four bar wearing, auto pilot flying wuss to think it is, let me clear it up for you.
The navajos are great airplanes. But a self taught, ham fisted type can hurt them terribly if not to many hours. The PPC training needs to cover all the little fine points to avoid the horrendous costs of misuse. And I have not seen to many new transitioning pilots who could do that without training with some one.
The navajo can also turn into a fire breathing dragon if mishandled, particularly by someone transitioning from only lighter aircraft.
So, at the risk of being labelled a wimp by the almighty class 1 instructor, I see the value in proper training, and the dangers in doing self checkouts...particularly for low time pilots..there are, of course exceptions, but they are not the rule.

And , to defer to the OP, I find it a bit odd that someone who just did their training on type, with no PIC on type, would even consider themselves qualified to teach others....but then again experience no longer seems to be important, and we have the wise ones posting on here that formal training is not necessary.....didnt help JFK jr did it...?

My second rant for the day. Time to go to bed

[Colonel Sanders]

The 1000TT instructor that's afraid of
a Piper Cherokee is no longer the exception,
unfortunately.

I wished I lived in a world where there was
pablum and powerpoint for everything.

But I was contracted to fly a Piaggio Royal
Gull to Belize. Four of them flying in the
world. Amazing, none of the fuzzy-cheeked
instructors at the airport offered to check
me out in it. Although I am sure they would
be happy to spend 3 hrs checking me out in
a 172. In your world, the Piaggio would
never fly, because there is no pablum and
powerpoint for it. But that's not the real
world.

In the real world, I have checked myself
out on, and taught myself aerobatics in:

PT-22 Ryan
PT-19 Cornell
450hp Stearman
700hp clip-wing Harvard
Beech 18
Twin Bonanza

and many, many other types. Too many
homebuilts to list, which instructors won't
go near.

Unfortunately there are no instructors around
with pablum and powerpoint for me to learn
from, if the type isn't common. I guess in
your world, none of those airplanes should
ever fly again. I'm glad I don't live in your
world.

I remember a few years back, one of you
white shirt/gold bars came out to the airport
to show us all how it was done. He was the
Pride of Air Canada, ret'd. Climbed into a
Maule (not mine) with a doctor and proceeded
to wreck it. Bent the landing gear, hasn't
flown since. Good Job, Gold Bars!

Another couple of retired gold bars took over
an airplane I flew for years. They trashed the
very expensive engines within a year. Full of
metal. Good Job, Gold Bars!

Without their pablum and powerpoint, the
Gold Bars were fish out of water. Lethal to
hardware, which pisses me off, even if you
don't care about it.

[trey kule]

I'm glad I don't live in your
world.

Me too! Glad we could agree on something

Now I must go and polish up my gold bars, so that I will be presentable when I worship at the alter of the class 1, tailwheel loving, Pitts flying , self checking out, uber pilot.

[Colonel Sanders]

Grovelling not required.

Just try to not wreck too many airplanes
when you leave your pablum and powerpoint
cocoon.

[trey kule]

No no...grovelling is certainly required, when one is sitting at the feet of one of the world's greatest pilots. Soaking up the wisdom and knowledge.

Just to be clear....i have absolutely no idea how to do a powerpoint presentation, and I dont much care for pablum, but if you think it is necessary to make the transition from a lower than a snake's belly four bar to someone of your exalted status in the aviation world, I will try.

I, and the other useless four bars can learn so much from the master. After all, non of us have ever flown a plane except straight and level, on auto pilot. Don't know anything about any plane that can fly upside down, or flys without propellers. Never flown into anything but 10000 foot paved runways.

No, grovelling at your feet is important to ensure you recognize the high regard we all hold you in.

Now back to the gold bar polishing.

[Colonel Sanders]

Maybe someday, I will be able to fly as well as
as pablum and powerpoint Four Bars?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyIDJAc7f8


You issue type ratings on ex-military jets, as I recall.

[trey kule]

Maybe someday, I will be able to fly as well as
as pablum and powerpoint Four Bars?

Someday! Someday? There is no need for you to be so modest

You are so far above all of us pablum eating, power point watching four bars, that we need a satellite just to see you....please, please keep posting pictures and videos of yourself. I am sure Zi speak for others when I say we cannot get enough of them.

And please keep reminding us of all your qualifications. Us old four bars have such poor memories that seeing them on every thread , on every topic, is a continued and appreciated reminder of your awesomeness.

And I cant begin to state my gratitude for the constant degradation and condescension you have for us. Keeps us in our place and stresses that we should try to be as humble as yourself.

Thank you, thank you

[trey kule]

Maybe someday, I will be able to fly as well as
as pablum and powerpoint Four Bars?

Someday! Someday? There is no need for you to be so modest

You are so far above all of us pablum eating, power point watching four bars, that we need a satellite just to see you....please, please keep posting pictures and videos of yourself. I am sure I speak for others when I say we cannot get enough of them.

And please keep reminding us of all your qualifications. Us old four bars have such poor memories that seeing them on every thread , on every topic, is a continued and appreciated reminder of your awesomeness.

And I cant begin to state my gratitude for the constant degradation and condescension you have for us. Keeps us in our place and stresses that we should try to be as humble as yourself.

Thank you, thank you

[Colonel Sanders]

No problem. Let us know when you're heading
to the airport so we can issue the NOTAM and
alert the TSB investigators.