Got accepted to Seneca - Should I accept the offer?

[MartinB]

Hi guys,

I just got accepted to Seneca but I'm unsure if I should accept. I've read nothing but negativity throughout my research about this program (ie: It's (really expensive)^2, they create of huge ego's in their students, they don't let students land in more than 5 knots of crosswind, the degree one get's through this program is completely useless, grads enter the industry 2 years or more behind all of their friends who trained privately or through a college program, etc...). The aviation program that I really want to get into at Confederation College, hasn't accepted me yet. All I know is that I'm somewhere on the wait list there. I also applied to Sault College and with my position on their wait list, there's a good chance that I'll get accepted there too. If my only acceptance is to Seneca though, should I go for it? I know in the end it's my decision, but what are your thoughts?

Martin

[esp803]

Martin,

You seem to be one of the few trying to get into the industry who has done research on what to expect from the industry and from the colleges. I never went to Seneca so I can't speak on their training. I did however go to a flight college (Selkirk). I think Selkirk was a bit of an anomaly in the colleges, for reasons that I have mentioned in previous threads. That being said.

If I was to do it all over again, I would go to college/university for something else that interests me, in a program that actually makes you something: Education, Engineering, Trades etc etc, not Art History. I would do my flying on the side at a smaller flight school on weekends. I look back at my days in college with nothing but fond memories and I think that the experience is a great one. 200 hours is 200 hours, it doesn't really matter where you do it (with the exception of being hired by someone who was trained at the same place...) but a fall back career, job to do while waiting for a flying job, job to go to while laid off.... that is worth it's weight in gold.

I forget where you reside, but if you can get a degree and a commercial pilots license while still living at home and SAVING money, you will be miles ahead in the long run. Don't worry to much about entering the aviation field in 1-4 years, in a 40 year career it will amount to the same thing. Don't compare your career with that of others, some people are more lucky, gifted and have better timing. Enjoy your 20's, go to college, have fun, if when you get into the field you decide it's just not for you (many do) go back to your degree, get a job in another field and fly when you want to fly, where you want to fly.

Good Luck!

E

[digits_]

I never liked college programs. You are too much attached to one flying school. Look for a good price/quality school that lets you pay as you go. This way, after each license/step along the way, you can easily switch schools without any problems. That keeps the school motivated to provide high quality instruction to you as well.

Just my opinion. Good luck !

[Big Pistons Forever]

Does anybody ever not get accepted at Seneca ?

If you have the money I am guessing they will train you. Confederation College, on the other hand, offers the flying part of the program essential for free. It is a hugely good deal and they can afford to be very choosy.

[Colonel Sanders]

In the long run, I'm not sure it really matters.

If you talk to a bunch of pilots who are 40 or
50 or 60 or 70, it really doesn't matter squat
where they did their PPL. What matters is
what they did after that.

What's important about flight training:

0) don't die during it (quite rare these days)
1) how much debt at completion
2) who you got to know

A lot of flight training in Canada is really
bad, and that includes a lot of places with
big names and shiny buildings. However,
people learn to fly in spite of it, and learn
afterwards how much nonsense they were
taught at the time.

[JungianJugular]

they create of huge ego's in their students
Martin

[5x5]

Hey, don't be so hard on big egos. From what I've read on this site from one of its most prolific posters, you can have Canada's biggest ego and be Canada's best pilot at the same time.

[Colonel Sanders]

I have to agree with you - you are the best!

[Taiser]

One thing to remember about places like Con College is they screen big time for the second year. You have to take a bunch of accounting classes and other junk then at the end of the first year it all gets reviewed by a panel and they decide if you should go on. They usually whittle the second year to less than 10 students!

Buddy of mine was going through it while I was in maintenance and he had good grades, and had no issues with the flying but he didn't make the cut to second year!! He likes to think he got his PPL for free, but mine at the time cost me about 6k. He spent a YEAR in college, tuition, books, food, lodgings, parties, etc... probably cost him at least 10k, probably more, for a PPL and no endorsements. Would have been cheaper for him to just get it during a summer like I did.

Mind you, this was 20 years ago so I'm not sure if all this still applies, but I think it does.

[JungianJugular]

Hey, don't be so hard on big egos. From what I've read on site from one of its most prolific posters, you can have Canada's biggest ego and be Canada's best pilot at the same time.

[cykz]

The 5kt crosswind is no more. Once you show you can fly a crosswind, the restriction is to the max demonstrated in the POH.

[imac0960]

From what I have heard, Con College and Seneca have both since dropped their quota schemes. If you maintain the required grades you go on. (This is to make the college more money)

[Ashbringer]

I'm about 2 weeks from graduating from Seneca, and personally I wouldn't recommend it. There is pretty big back log in the training from various set backs in the last few years, and until they rectify those backlogs, I wouldn't want to me anywhere near Seneca's flight line. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have, I'll answer them honestly.

[smokescreen_wshh]

@Ashbringer...How long have you been at Seneca and what would you have done differently?

[Ashbringer]

@Ashbringer...How long have you been at Seneca and what would you have done differently?

I'm just finishing up fourth year. The program is okay, but there were a TON of delays in the past few years for various reason including phasing out the Bonanza from the fleet, which really screwed over a lot of students and set them very far behind in their flight training.

There's some pretty good opportunities though, depending on what you want to do. I wanted the option to apply to the Canadian Forces as an officer, and the degree Seneca gives you is recognized by the Canadian Forces for Direct Entry and (as of last year or so) ROTP. Jazz also has been doing a cadet program with the graduating class for the past couple years, which gives you an opportunity to get a job as a first officer at Jazz shortly after graduating, provided you're nominated and do well on the Jazz interview and the sim eval. Seven people (I believe) from the class ahead of me just got hired at Jazz less then a year after graduating.

The whole "Seneca thinks they're big shots" thing certainly comes into play, and that part is pretty annoying. There's plenty of students that have the wrong attitude, and think they're entitled to "not have to work ramp" etc., and that's annoying since we're all grouped in that category. But, I imagine that's the case at some other flight schools as well.

In a few years, once they get the flight line back on track, and sort out some other bugs associated with staffing and other problems that came with moving to CYPQ, I think the program will improve, but right now, I wouldn't want to be starting.

If I had to do it again, I think I'd go to a shorter 2 year college program, then maybe do a couple years at University afterwards in a program that interested me. Seneca looks excellent on paper, and if you're lucky, get assigned the experienced instructors, are well liked by the staff, etc., you can make it work very well for you, but be prepared to deal with a lot of bull$shit. You also really need to have a good attitude and recognize you're just an inexperienced pilot who's taken some classes on airline operations and how to read Aerodata and WAT charts.

[FighterPilot]

Give your head a shake. No

[MartinB]

Thanks for all of your opinions guys!

I ended up accepted my offer, but if I get into Confed or Sault, I will go there instead as they get me in the industry faster and cost about half as much as Seneca. However, I did a little math and it looks like going the private route at a local FTU in Calgary would still cost 10-20k more than Seneca which is why I'll still go there if I don't manage to get a seat at any of the other two colleges. I guess I'll just have to make my way through the crap involved with the program.

I'll make sure I..

have a good attitude and recognize you're just an inexperienced pilot who's taken some classes on airline operations and how to read Aerodata and WAT charts.

To be honest, I don't really want to go directly to Jazz, Air Georgian, or Cargojet (these are the airlines that Seneca sends pilots for interviews AFAIK). I want to take the long way and enjoy some real flying for a couple years before I become a flying computer programmer. I would love to tow and fly gliders, fly medivacs, fly charters, and possibly cargo runs in a beaten up Nava-Jo or a Metro Tin-Can before considering the airlines. If I could avoid the ramp and manage to only fly that would be awesome but I wouldn't mind paying my dues on the dock/ramp for a flying gig if I have to. Flying 737's or 787's would be sweet but I'll save it for later.

Once again, thanks for your opinions guys!

Hope to be sharing the skies with you guys soon

[Duffman]

Based on your last post it sounds like Confed would be much better suited to you. I think going directly to an airline with no PIC time is career suicide but that's another topic.

Good luck

[MartinB]

Based on your last post it sounds like Confed would be much better suited to you. I think going directly to an airline with no PIC time is career suicide but that's another topic.

Confed is my dream program. I love everything about it!

Good luck

I'll need all the luck I can get if I end up going to Seneca. The first year looks brutal.

[eggy]

For anyone still in high school: the most valuable advice I ever received before attending post secondary for aviation was from my old instructor back in YZR. I flew casually during high school, and he always told me to take the hardest courses possible. When I got to first year I had taken all the U courses in grade 12 (Functions, Calc, Physics, Chemistry, English) which made first year very manageable.

As long as you have a good attitude and can manage your time you will have success. Many think it is a "right" to fly just because they have paid tuition, but it is certainly a privilege that you have to earn.

[FogboundBird]

My program was a waste of time and money, although it was a bottom of the barrel school ( which is my fault due to lack of research). I did however have the time of my life meeting lifelong friends and in the end I walked away with the job I wanted since high school. So i really can't complain, besides the hole in my bank account I still have to fix. Good Luck Man!

[+RA]

Hi Martin,

I was in a similar situation to you last year.

It might be worthwhile to consider the opportunity cost associated with pursuing a four year program as compared to an FTU.

Of the four pilots I know who went through the Seneca program, every one of them found themselves instructing post-graduation. Becoming a flight instructor doesn't require an aviation diploma/degree; therefore, many FTU instructors were FTU graduates themselves.

When looking at timeframes, an individual with a good work ethic and drive could complete their CPL and Instructor Rating through an FTU within 1.5 years, leaving them 2.5 years of working in industry, earning money, building hours, and making contacts, time which would've otherwise been spent still in school at Seneca. If you were to work at your local FTU while still living at home for the first couple of years, your monetary earning potential alone would probably double or triple the price difference you had mentioned between Seneca and a local FTU. Furthermore, if your local FTU is fairly busy, you could build 1500hrs instructing and find yourself right seat on a King Air or B1900 within those two and a half years.

For the nitpickers on this site: please note that I'm not advocating for someone to become an instructor who has no interest in doing so except for hour building; rather, I'm simply trying to convey the idea of opportunity cost using an aviation setting.

Martin, if you're concerned with getting some form of post-secondary completed in order to check of that box at some operators; with the advent of technology, pursuing a degree now through correspondence is becoming increasingly acceptable. Moreover, I would wager a degree through ERAU, Athabasca, Royal Roads, etc., would be of more use as a backup plan than an aviation diploma/degree through a college.

Anyway, just something to take into consideration when making your decision.

John

[imac0960]

When looking at timeframes, an individual with a good work ethic and drive could complete their CPL and Instructor Rating through an FTU within 1.5 years, leaving them 2.5 years of working in industry, earning money, building hours, and making contacts, time which would've otherwise been spent still in school at Seneca. If you were to work at your local FTU while still living at home for the first couple of years, your monetary earning potential alone would probably double or triple the price difference you had mentioned between Seneca and a local FTU. Furthermore, if your local FTU is fairly busy, you could build 1500hrs instructing and find yourself right seat on a King Air or B1900 within those two and a half years.

Well said. A lot of people forget this.

Martin, if you stay at home and do your flight training you will save thousands on living costs. Both ways of getting flight training have their pros and cons. Only you will know what is right for you. What is your end goal? From there you can decide what is the fastest and most efficient way to get there. A CPL with float time will let you get into bush flying much faster than going to college and getting a MIFR and then after graduating you have to go and get a Float Endorsement anyway. Most people do not get MIFR jobs right at 200hrs despite what FTU's and Colleges tell you.

[SpeedChecks]

The tuition is tough to swallow for Seneca. 15 thou per year for 4 years, plus room and board at the peterbrough campus for year 2,3 and 4. Just a shy away from 100k total.

[Koalemos]

.