Rogerdodger2 wrote:
SW has hired more pilots then any other charter company over the last two years and will hire 50 more this summer. SW not good for Canadians?????? Or not good for Transat #Gilles?
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So Roger I have a question for you. It is not meant to be inflammatory it is asked in a genuine effort to better understand the issue.
It would seem to me that the 50 pilots were hired because of pressure brought against SW to reduce the number of TFW's ar SW. So if where not for the pressure is it not most likely that SW would have just have continued their previous strategy of using foreign workers and those 50 Canadian pilots would not have been hired ?
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Last edited by Big Pistons Forever on Wed May 14, 2014 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When I do not post the source document, I get called a liar, I am accused of posting false information etc.
This memo needed to be posted for it showed that Sunwing, while boasting about $80 million profits, gave itself the luxury of theatening layoffs, of not retaining 737 pilots that were already trained and checked, just to save itself the expense of their salaries. Why could Sunwing afford these layoffs? Because they knew very well that these Canadian pilots could be easily and painlessly replaced with readily available TFW pilots next winter.
If these TFW were not readily available, Sunwing would never afford itself the luxury of letting any Canadian 737 pilot go, for they would need them for next winter.
As for the salaries Sunwing pays the TFW in Canada it is exactly ZERO. Sunwing does not pay one red cent to any one of them. These TFW pilots collect their pay in Europe from their European employers.
How much does Sunwing pay the European employers for the use of the TFW pilots in Canada ? I don't know and neither do you.
I learned what the salary of a junior Travel Service FO was and it is much lower than the $40 per flight hour that Sunwing stated on the LMO application it made for these same pilots. But who is checking ?
I wish Sunwing no ill, never have, never will. But this TFW abuse BS must stop once and for all.
Gilles, you use words that insinuate that Sunwing is getting a free ride, and then use your own conjecture to state what you perceive is a fact. Let me reiterate, the only saving that Sunwing realizes by bringing in foreign pilots is in training, which is offset by the additional expense of housing these pilots and paying them per diems for their entire stay. Much like when Sunwing pilots go overseas, it saves the foreign airline partners training a temporary pilot, but that is offset by the housing and per diems. What it brings is some sort of stability to the rostering, both benefiting the airlines themselves, and frankly the pilots as well who wish to participate in deployments.
There is no free ride as you continuously insinuate. There would be no savings in laying off a Canadian pilot with the intent of replacing them with a foreign pilot. What does Sunwing pay their airline partners for each foreign pilot? Frankly that's none of my business nor is it yours. But I can assure you that each of those foreign pilots can hardly be considered cheap labour.
The key is to bring a balance to the program, and I agree this needs to be properly overseen.
Its great that Sunwing gets to send Canadian pilots to Europe in the slow summer season. But how many are you sending this over this summer ? 4 aircraft, with 9 captains and 7 FOs per aircraft. That is 16 pilots per aircraft, for a grand total of 64 pilots.
I would be happy to see 64 European pilots work for Sunwing on wet leases in Canada next winter. Wouldn't that be a blast?
But that is not what is going to happen is it?
They will be six foreign wet leases, with about 96 foreign pilots operating these aircraft and in addition to those, Sunwing will apply to ESDC for an additionla 120 pilots under LMOs for a grand total of about 216 foreign pilots.
You said you now have about 210 full time pilots and will hire another 40 seasonal pilots in August? So next winter we are to expect 250 Canadian pilots vs 216 foreign pilots?
You're right, the balance seems to sway from time to time. Unfortunately it was when Canjet started bringing in foreign pilots to operate on behalf of Transat Vacations, without any of their pilots going overseas, that this became an issue. Sunwing objected to this practice, but they were told that it was perfectly within the realm of the program. While I do not agree with the scope of how it has been administered in some cases, Sunwing have simply continued this after the lead taken by Canjet on behalf of Transat Vacations. Where were the cries when this was going on?
On that note, I understand that the 737 program at Air Transat is behind schedule, and as such Air Transat will be using more Canjet aircraft next winter than originally anticipated. How many foreign pilots will Canjet get on behalf of Transat Vacations?
To answer Big Pistons Forever, this is an interesting question. I have no doubt that Gilles has had an effect on how business is conducted at Sunwing. Having said that, the Sunwing pilots and its union have been putting a lot of internal pressure on the company to find a balance to the foreign pilot issue. Sunwing pilots obviously want more Canadian pilots on the roster, and this has been accomplished at a strong pace. The kink right now is that Sunwing planned to send approximately 120 pilots overseas this summer, but due to the EASA restrictions this was restricted by the pilot group. I believe the right balance is well on the way although it may take another two or three years to finally reach it. In the mean time, more Canadian pilots will be hired at Sunwing, with very competitive earnings.
Just because Gilles makes a lot of noise, does not mean he is accomplishing as much as he believes. There are a lot of really good and well intentioned people working continuously to improve the situation, and the results are encouraging.
aerosexual wrote:Sunwing has approximately 210 permanent pilots plus the above mentioned Canadian seasonal pilots
An interesting argument, considering the main reason this number is as high as it is is Gilles' efforts to shine a spotlight on the abuse of the TFW program in aviation.
Very interesting replies to this post....I've been reading all of them but I still belive that sunwing can do whatever they want as long as the law is not broken....they can hire people even from mars without any sort of justification. But at the same time, due the super small aviation businesses in canada vs tthe enormous amount of unemployed pilots a sort of disappointment is justified.
aerosexual wrote:Sunwing has approximately 210 permanent pilots plus the above mentioned Canadian seasonal pilots
An interesting argument, considering the main reason this number is as high as it is is Gilles' efforts to shine a spotlight on the abuse of the TFW program in aviation.
With all due respect, like I've said before, there has been a lot of pressure internally by the Sunwing pilot group and the pilot union to hire more Canadian pilots, including Canadian seasonal pilots. Sunwing management is also savvy enough to understand that it is also beneficial to reduce the number of foreign pilots and hire more Canadians wherever possible. In the long-run, Canadian pilots are cheaper than foreign pilots.
I repeat from previously, foreign pilots are NOT cheap labour. It is due to strong growth and training logistics that they exist. Just because Gilles makes a lot of noise does not mean he somehow is responsible for more Canadian jobs. You can thank him all you want though, he appreciates the credit.
If foreign pilots aren't cheaper why not keep all the trained/typed Canadian pilots employed rather than see them leave. What expense is involved in bringing in foreigners and paying for their stay in Canada while they take Canadian jobs?
I see this as more of a TUI initiative to dump their pilots in Canada regardless of what Sunwing Canada wants. After all, TUI wears the pants no?
aerosexual wrote:
I repeat from previously, foreign pilots are NOT cheap labour. It is due to strong growth and training logistics that they exist. Just because Gilles makes a lot of noise does not mean he somehow is responsible for more Canadian jobs. You can thank him all you want though, he appreciates the credit.
Sunwing hired and trained 40 seasonal pilots last winter. Great. Why were only 12 of those offered permanent jobs if so many pilots were needed for next winter? Why isn't Sunwing hiring and training pilots NOW to prepare next winter as Transat is doing instead of only hiring next August ?
Because they don't need to. Thet will just hire and train the token number required to convince ESDC that they made a reasonable effort to hire and train Canadians.
FICU wrote:If foreign pilots aren't cheaper why not keep all the trained/typed Canadian pilots employed rather than see them leave. What expense is involved in bringing in foreigners and paying for their stay in Canada while they take Canadian jobs?
I see this as more of a TUI initiative to dump their pilots in Canada regardless of what Sunwing Canada wants. After all, TUI wears the pants no?
If TUI wore the pants (another misconception that Gilles would have you believe), then there would be a lot more TUI pilots on the winter roster and no Travel Service pilots. The key is to have year-round employment, but you can't have a large amount of pilots sitting around collecting a paycheque for six months without enough work to go around. Hence the need for Canadian seasonal pilots to supplement the permanent pilots and of course the famous foreign pilots to help out under a reciprocal arrangement.
The expense involved in bringing foreigners is in the form of per diems, accommodations, etc, and none of that is cheap. Hence why I want to reiterate that foreign pilots are NOT cheap labour to take away Canadian jobs.
aerosexual wrote:
I repeat from previously, foreign pilots are NOT cheap labour. It is due to strong growth and training logistics that they exist. Just because Gilles makes a lot of noise does not mean he somehow is responsible for more Canadian jobs. You can thank him all you want though, he appreciates the credit.
Sunwing hired and trained 40 seasonal pilots last winter. Great. Why were only 12 of those offered permanent jobs if so many pilots were needed for next winter? Why isn't Sunwing hiring and training pilots NOW to prepare next winter as Transat is doing instead of only hiring next August ?
Because they don't need to. Thet will just hire and train the token number required to convince ESDC that they made a reasonable effort to hire and train Canadians.
No Gilles. Air Transat, which has a busy summer season flying wide bodies across the Atlantic, hired pilots NOW to prepare for summer, NOT next winter. Sunwing offered 12 permanent positions to the 40 seasonal pilots NOW because that is what would cover the need for the summer time. All of the remaining seasonal pilots plus approximately 50 more will be hired from August onwards to cover the busy winter season. This has been covered ad nauseam and you still twist it for some reason.
Let me reiterate. Air Transat hired pilots recently because they are busy in the summer. Sunwing is hiring pilots in August because they are busy in the winter. Different business models require different solutions.
So what is the cost difference between only paying salaries to Canadians and paying hundreds of foreigners employment fees, training fees, accommodation, car, and deployment per-diems? Or, are the foreigners paid by their European companies and not Sunwing?
How many Thompson/TUI pilots were brought over last year and how many Czechs? What's the deal between Sunwing and Travel Service?
49% foreign ownership of a Canadian company carries a lot of weight and influence no matter how you spin it.
aerosexual wrote:If TUI wore the pants (another misconception that Gilles would have you believe), then there would be a lot more TUI pilots on the winter roster and no Travel Service pilots. The key is to have year-round employment, but you can't have a large amount of pilots sitting around collecting a paycheque for six months without enough work to go around. Hence the need for Canadian seasonal pilots to supplement the permanent pilots and of course the famous foreign pilots to help out under a reciprocal arrangement.
The expense involved in bringing foreigners is in the form of per diems, accommodations, etc, and none of that is cheap. Hence why I want to reiterate that foreign pilots are NOT cheap labour to take away Canadian jobs.
Canadian pilots are laid off and Temporary Foreign Workers are hired not because of any genuine shortage of skilled labor in Canada but to maximize Sunwing PROFITS.
At the expense of Canadian pilots and of Canadian taxpayers of course.
Canadian pilots are laid off and Temporary Foreign Workers are hired not because of any genuine shortage of skilled labor in Canada but to maximize Sunwing PROFITS.
At the expense of Canadian pilots and of Canadian taxpayers of course.
Let me correct your statement Gilles.
"Canadian pilots are laid off from one company (Air Transat) due to their own internal issues, and Temporary Foreign Workers are hired not because of any genuine shortage of skilled labor in Canada but to maximize Sunwing Vacations and Air Transat Vacations PROFITS, as both companies, including Air Transat Vacations via their partnership with Canjet Airlines participated in the Temporary Foreign Worker program.
At the expense of Canadian pilots and of Canadian taxpayers of course."
Not this cat - not even an acknowledgement of receipt of my resume. Third application in the last year, more than meet the non-type rated qualifications and would very much like to have that job.
Flightdeck Fred wrote:Not this cat - not even an acknowledgement of receipt of my resume. Third application in the last year, more than meet the non-type rated qualifications and would very much like to have that job.
But you don't speak Czechlish. I guess it's a hidden qualification.
Canadian pilots are laid off and Temporary Foreign Workers are hired not because of any genuine shortage of skilled labor in Canada but to maximize Sunwing PROFITS.
At the expense of Canadian pilots and of Canadian taxpayers of course.
What part of this is so hard for you to understand. NO ONE WAS LAID OFF! EVERY SEASONAL FCM WHO WAS NOT OFFERED FULL TIME WORK FOR THE SUMMER WILL BE BROUGHT BACK FOR THE WINTER. Plus more new hires.
60N30W wrote:
Rogerdodger2 wrote:The posting of that memo may be the last straw. I'm sure Gilles can expect repercussions for that move.
Rogerdodger2,
That sounds like a threat, is it?
If it is, well pretty cowardly to threaten someone anonymously. I suggest you retract the post.
Regards,
M.Jackson
TSC Captain
A: it's not a threat, nor does it read like one. More like a hunch. Although I have nothing to base that on. (Refreshing isn't it, to have someone admit there is no basis for the things posted on this site. To bad more people don't do that)
B: I suggest you retract your ridiculous post. You're somehow better than EVERYONE else on this site because you choose to use your name. Get off your high horse.
Canadian pilots are laid off and Temporary Foreign Workers are hired not because of any genuine shortage of skilled labor in Canada but to maximize Sunwing PROFITS.
At the expense of Canadian pilots and of Canadian taxpayers of course.
What part of this is so hard for you to understand. NO ONE WAS LAID OFF! EVERY SEASONAL FCM WHO WAS NOT OFFERED FULL TIME WORK FOR THE SUMMER WILL BE BROUGHT BACK FOR THE WINTER. Plus more new hires.
60N30W wrote:
Rogerdodger2 wrote:The posting of that memo may be the last straw. I'm sure Gilles can expect repercussions for that move.
Rogerdodger2,
That sounds like a threat, is it?
If it is, well pretty cowardly to threaten someone anonymously. I suggest you retract the post.
Regards,
M.Jackson
TSC Captain
A: it's not a threat, nor does it read like one. More like a hunch. Although I have nothing to base that on. (Refreshing isn't it, to have someone admit there is no basis for the things posted on this site. To bad more people don't do that)
B: I suggest you retract your ridiculous post. You're somehow better than EVERYONE else on this site because you choose to use your name. Get off your high horse.
Roger,
Why should I retract anything? All I did was ask a question .
As to posting under my name...... I don't know what to say to your comments.
