Renegotiating with Air Canada

[Indanao]

Air Canada has been a private company for over 25 years.[/quote]

Tax Payers will end up paying for that....makes me wonder why they still have the Federal Government running an Airline.

???????

Air Canada has been a private company for over 25 years.

It is a Political toy. Next time they Buy new Airplanes the then Prime Minister will be getting some money for their Offshore Accounts. It amazes me how all of the AC cronies come out of the woodwork and shout...Oh but, " Air Canada has been a private company for over 25 years." What B.S.. A Private Company can go broke -
AC cannot.Hence the holding company ACE Aviation Holdings.Everything AC has, or ever will have, came from the Tax Payers with NO repayment.

It's a money pit, with the only people prospering by it being the people that work, " in " it.
I spoke to a lady today who has worked at YVR for 20 years. She was talking to an Airline Engineer today, and asked what Airline he worked for, he said, " there is only one Airline in Canada ".

[Fanblade]

Sorry dude.

AC went broke in 2003. Filed for bankruptcy protection like any other public company. Your right to a point. The vulture corporation that came to AC's rescue gutted any and all worth that tax payers had created. Your government watched it happen. Did nothing. Why? It was a public company. In 2009, oil at $150 / barrel and a recession, the federal government loaned AC money at something like 13%. Loaned.......as in had to pay back. As in already paid back. Do public companies pay back?

I totally get your cynicism about government interference. It has never stopped. Although the government calls AC private. They treat AC ........well as you put it, like a political toy.

[Indanao]

They will forever be broke or going broke. We all know the entire history of Air Canada.
One would expect their employees, and families, to rise to their defense. ( Nobody wants to bite the hand that feeds them. )

[Localizer]

Saabguy,

Thanks for the info .. I honestly have a hard time digesting anything AC puts in print, their fancy accounting team seems to make numbers work in whatever favour they require that day. I still shake my head how a 3 billion dollar pension deficit vanished overnight?! Also, your right in regards to the number of "executives", all the articles you read seem to show different numbers and don't qualify what makes them an executive.

I think the supply of ATPL's are on the decline, so that should translate a shift in the supply and demand of pilots .. unfortunately the retirement age continues to rise in this country slowing the exodus at the top. I could believe the constant pressure to drive down wawcon in this country is a preemptive strike by management because they know what's coming down the road?!

CALPA?? .. The new Westjet union name? I think your brother would slap you for bringing that word to light!

[TheStig]

Sorry if it seemed like thread drift MiG but "sharing our pain" is the topic. Localizer, I agree coming from a multi-millionaire CEO who's company had a record year it comes across as hollow. However, to any Jazz pilot reading this, and I'm having a hard time putting my opinion into the right words so please don't take this the wrong way, please carefully consider the message Fanblade has presented. Their is no schadenfreude intended, just experience and perspective.

As a mainline pilot I'm fully aware of the animosity present between the pilot groups, the reality is, we are absolutely no different, you could take any pilot at either airline, run them through a transition coarse, change their hat and they'd be indistinguishable.

Being disgusted with executive compensation and corporate profits is easy and taking the "high road" and claiming you will not be part of the race to the bottom is noble, but the fact is, it's already taking place whether you partake or not. Pilot compensation is very personal to us, it affects our lifestyle tremendously and should reflect the unique skills and experience we bring to our airlines. To executives, our salaries are simply data that gets imputed into a spreadsheet, and their job is to find ways to bring costs down in negotiations.

We all know Jazz provides Air Canada with excellent service and plays a key role in the airlines network, but it is no longer cost competitive. All this angst seems to exist between pilots with Maple Leafs painted on the tails, but the reality is that Encore and Porter are the rivals here. How can Air Canada compete with Encore and Porter using Jazz? I'm not just talking about wages, benefits and pensions, but routes and types being flown. Air Canada has identified its regional market development as a key component of its continued cost transformation, what does this mean to you? What needs to be discussed is how can Jazz provide a cost competitive product in the sub 76 seat market (the E190's aren't being transferred). Nobody wants to see Jazz turned into the next Calmair or American Eagle, putting emotions aside how is this achieved?

[truedude]

Sorry if it seemed like thread drift MiG but "sharing our pain" is the topic. Localizer, I agree coming from a multi-millionaire CEO who's company had a record year it comes across as hollow. However, to any Jazz pilot reading this, and I'm having a hard time putting my opinion into the right words so please don't take this the wrong way, please carefully consider the message Fanblade has presented. Their is no schadenfreude intended, just experience and perspective.

As a mainline pilot I'm fully aware of the animosity present between the pilot groups, the reality is, we are absolutely no different, you could take any pilot at either airline, run them through a transition coarse, change their hat and they'd be indistinguishable.

Being disgusted with executive compensation and corporate profits is easy and taking the "high road" and claiming you will not be part of the race to the bottom is noble, but the fact is, it's already taking place whether you partake or not. Pilot compensation is very personal to us, it affects our lifestyle tremendously and should reflect the unique skills and experience we bring to our airlines. To executives, our salaries are simply data that gets imputed into a spreadsheet, and their job is to find ways to bring costs down in negotiations.

We all know Jazz provides Air Canada with excellent service and plays a key role in the airlines network, but it is no longer cost competitive. All this angst seems to exist between pilots with Maple Leafs painted on the tails, but the reality is that Encore and Porter are the rivals here. How can Air Canada compete with Encore and Porter using Jazz? I'm not just talking about wages, benefits and pensions, but routes and types being flown. Air Canada has identified its regional market development as a key component of its continued cost transformation, what does this mean to you? What needs to be discussed is how can Jazz provide a cost competitive product in the sub 76 seat market (the E190's aren't being transferred). Nobody wants to see Jazz turned into the next Calmair or American Eagle, putting emotions aside how is this achieved?

The answer to your question is, you can't. But I think it is really important to understand that if our salary gets lowered, yours will be lower yet again next time as well. We all rise or fall together. The idea that one group can rise while others fall is a fallacy. So if management comes to us (Jazz) asking for concessions, my position will be (and I hope others agree) that we might as well simply close the doors. My voice may not be able to make that happen, but what I personally can do is spend the next few years re-educating myself (i am thankfully still young enough to do so) and simply walk away from this god forsaken mess.

[JoeyBarton]

25 EMB to replace 64 dash-8, better tell the lower third of the Jazz Seniority list to dust off the old resumes.

Source?

[TheStig]

The answer to your question is, you can't. But I think it is really important to understand that if our salary gets lowered, yours will be lower yet again next time as well. We all rise or fall together. The idea that one group can rise while others fall is a fallacy. So if management comes to us (Jazz) asking for concessions, my position will be (and I hope others agree) that we might as well simply close the doors. My voice may not be able to make that happen, but what I personally can do is spend the next few years re-educating myself (i am thankfully still young enough to do so) and simply walk away from this god forsaken mess.

This isn't really the dialog I was hoping to further, as I don't believe that Jazz can't be competitive. Simply encouraging all you're peers to burn the house down while you make other plans hardly seems like good advice for them to follow. Call me naive, but, sorry this industry isn't a "god forsaken mess" this business has the ability to earn everyone a lot of money.

I'd humbly also like to suggest that mainline pilots have already taken a haircut or two; rouge wages matching it's targeted competitors, loss of the RJ's and more recently the E175's at the hands of arbitrators electing to follow (in 2005 and 2011) industry standards, changes to pension plans (for new hires and existing pilots), modifications to productivity, equipment bidding, wage roll backs, loss of vacation days...I could go on. I'm not saying that executives aren't going to ever ask for more (they have already). I understand and agree with your point about the tides effecting all the boats in harbour, but maybe this isn't exactly the case in this instance as the mainline contract (at this point) is closer to other airlines benchmarks than Jazz's is?

Like I've mentioned, I believe Jazz has a future as a competive company and I think the Board and CEO do as well, but as has been mentioned everyone is going to be expected to come to the table or risk being shut out. There aren't any White Knights here, the E190's aren't going to be transferred, Encore is expanding, Porter isn't going away, ACPA (and it's pilot group) is/are completely focused on its/their own self interests and the College seems to be loosing momentum not gaining.

[AllClutch]

25 EMB to replace 64 dash-8, better tell the lower third of the Jazz Seniority list to dust off the old resumes.

Source?

I am not claiming that at all and do not believe that is what's happening.I was pointing out one of the flaws in stinkys claim.

[truedude]

The answer to your question is, you can't. But I think it is really important to understand that if our salary gets lowered, yours will be lower yet again next time as well. We all rise or fall together. The idea that one group can rise while others fall is a fallacy. So if management comes to us (Jazz) asking for concessions, my position will be (and I hope others agree) that we might as well simply close the doors. My voice may not be able to make that happen, but what I personally can do is spend the next few years re-educating myself (i am thankfully still young enough to do so) and simply walk away from this god forsaken mess.

This isn't really the dialog I was hoping to further, as I don't believe that Jazz can't be competitive. Simply encouraging all you're peers to burn the house down while you make other plans hardly seems like good advice for them to follow. Call me naive, but, sorry this industry isn't a "god forsaken mess" this business has the ability to earn everyone a lot of money.

I'd humbly also like to suggest that mainline pilots have already taken a haircut or two; rouge wages matching it's targeted competitors, loss of the RJ's and more recently the E175's at the hands of arbitrators electing to follow (in 2005 and 2011) industry standards, changes to pension plans (for new hires and existing pilots), modifications to productivity, equipment bidding, wage roll backs, loss of vacation days...I could go on. I'm not saying that executives aren't going to ever ask for more (they have already). I understand and agree with your point about the tides effecting all the boats in harbour, but maybe this isn't exactly the case in this instance as the mainline contract (at this point) is closer to other airlines benchmarks than Jazz's is?

Like I've mentioned, I believe Jazz has a future as a competive company and I think the Board and CEO do as well, but as has been mentioned everyone is going to be expected to come to the table or risk being shut out. There aren't any White Knights here, the E190's aren't going to be transferred, Encore is expanding, Porter isn't going away, ACPA (and it's pilot group) is/are completely focused on its/their own self interests and the College seems to be loosing momentum not gaining.

I'm not sure I understand you; but if your suggesting Jazz remain competitive by the pilot group accepting roll backs in our compinsation or working conditions, then with all due respect, you can go f$%# yourself. I am fairly compensated for what I do and will not give anything up because some of my fellow pilots are prepared to whore out their present at the expense of their future. "Not one more inch" is my motto. I can't stop my government from shoving a contract down my throat, but I doubt that will be an issue come 2015, as I think we will see our country return to a minority government.

And as far as this industry not being god forsaken, where have you been for the last 15 years? Because clearly you haven't been paying attention.

[Mig29]

I think what all of us have to understand that whenever one of the groups gives in, it slides the floor a little below the rest of us. Regardless if it is mainline (AC or WJ) or their respective feeder partners.

I know for sure that pilots are NOT the biggest expense in their airline, and if they happen to be one, I could care less. You know why?? Because no one understands better then us the sacrifices and all the hardship it took and that it still takes to this day to get all the licenses, ratings and to maintain them at all times. All this while undertaking constant testing and continuous education just to remain competitive in this industry. The toll this take on your personal health and well being and your life outside of work (family primarily) is huge, whether we want to admit it or not. We are good at mitigating stress and are know to keep our problems inside our circle of colleagues, which is maybe why not too many people understand us.

But having said all this, I am a firm believer that our only way of surviving is if we stand firm next to each other and reject any further degradation of our profession. Yes, the companies will always try to tell us that we need to be more efficient but it's time we all say enough is enough.

[Localizer]

Stig,

I agree with all that you're saying .. I don't agree that the saving should come out of my pocket or for that matter your pocket. There are a lot of ways to cut cost that don't involve employee's .. the fact is those other methods aren't as easy and require effort. All I can really do is hope that our fearless (ahem) leaders can collectively find a solution that doesn't involve food stamps. Also, I like your analysis of cost comparison then AC management who believe a Canadian company should be bench marked against American regional's making $19,000 to $35,000 per year.

BTW .. I have no animosity toward anyone or any group and would never punt someone from a jumpseat, as far as I'm concerned, we are all on the same team and should be fighting outward, not inward.

Truedude,

Where you around for the last contract?? .. If so you might want to recall it was a minority conservative government that kicked us where it hurt.

Fanblade,

I agree and understand what your saying. In regards to your reasoning for Rouge operating the American routes, that same logic can really apply to any route that has competition and if that's the allowance AC mgmt has then yikes!! ..

[truedude]

Truedude,

Where you around for the last contract?? .. If so you might want to recall it was a minority conservative government that kicked us where it hurt.

I was, they interfered but were multiplicity unsuccessful in having much of an effect or garnering the support of the other parties. Unlike Air Canada where they stuck their balls in a vice told them to like it.

[Fanblade]

Fanblade,

I agree and understand what your saying. In regards to your reasoning for Rouge operating the American routes, that same logic can really apply to any route that has competition and if that's the allowance AC mgmt has then yikes!! ..

I didn't write it. But I do have to live with it. Life just sucks sometimes. I have made my views known. I know you don't like them. Heck I don't like them.

Get creative. Find a way out. I don't want to see people hurt. Sorry that I put the human impact above the profession.

But I do.

[Fanblade]

The way to get more cost competitive is to stop flying a fleet largely populated by antiques from the 80's and 90's. What Jazz is doing is akin to AC still flying gas guzzling DC-9's and 727's arguing that they have low ownership costs (paid for) but high operating costs (fuel consumption).

The era of the 50 seater is fast coming to a close. Time to get on with it. In 10 years most of the current Jazz fleet will be parked in the desert somewhere.

Absolutely refleeting is key.

Comair? Left with all the old crap. The new fins went elsewhere.

Eagle? Left with all the old crap. If the threats are real, the new 175's going elsewhere.

Lesson? Jazz needs to get reflected to survive.

What's happening? Refleeting happening elsewhere.

[Localizer]

Truedude,

Lisa Rat, err Raitt played a bigger part then you know .. Our balls were in the same vice, we settled before they started to squeeze.

[CanadianEh]

I still shake my head how a 3 billion dollar pension deficit vanished overnight?!

It's because the government told AC that there would be no executive bonuses paid out until the deficit was gone. Just another revolving door management team trying to quickly line their pockets while the dedicated employees are left holding the bag.

[teacher]

Firstly I want to commend everyone for a very civil conversation

Second. If AC is still losing money and saving money for the corporation is important wouldn't AC employees taking another pay cut be a good thing for the company? It probably wouldn't take much to put the company into the black.......

.........which leads me into my third point. I had a conversation with a dentist, engineer and a chiropractor at different times and got the same comment. It is something that we as airline employees and pilots have yet to learn and for some reason refuse to abide by. It is not up to the employees to subsidize a corporation.

I charge what I am worth for my services. Never apologize for your fees, billing for your time or for what you are worth.

Imagine what our profession would be like if we followed that way of carrying ourselves in our careers? Maybe that's what's wrong and why we are not considered real professionals? A professional knows what it took to get to where they are and how much work and effort it took and expects to be treated as such. Knowing one's value is step 1.

[volez]

Agreed !

So what can we actually and realistically do to defend our profession ? I joined the college at the end of August, but what else can we do, what are our realistic valuable options ?

[Indanao]

Supply and Demand. Employees aren't worth whatever they think, but rather what the free market dictates. There is no accounting for peoples sense of self worth, depending on their vanity. TFWs will displace us all eventually if the program were allowed to continue to expand.

[CanadianEh]

+1 for the supply and demand comment.

[teacher]

Supply and Demand. Employees aren't worth whatever they think, but rather what the free market dictates. There is no accounting for peoples sense of self worth, depending on their vanity. TFWs will displace us all eventually if the program were allowed to continue to expand.

Disagree, to a point.

If you do not accept the wages and refuse to work for them than they will go up. Nobody can fly an airplane except a trained pilot. Who's gonna fly them? If we all walked off the job who would fly the planes? Nobody. We have no idea what we're worth and we're too busy worrying about how cheap the other guy will do it that we can't see how we ourselves are ruining our own WAWCON.

[ourkid2000]

If you do not accept the wages and refuse to work for them than they will go up. Nobody can fly an airplane except a trained pilot. Who's gonna fly them?

But you will accept them......everyone always does.

[teacher]

If you do not accept the wages and refuse to work for them than they will go up. Nobody can fly an airplane except a trained pilot. Who's gonna fly them?

But you will accept them......everyone always does.

I'm not naive. Sadly I may have to if I want to remain employed in this profession. Or I stop looking for work after my company is forced into bankruptcy or concessions while someone else gladly takes my place.

Until that time I will try to change things for the better for all pilots.

[hithere]

I think the lack of response from "Ewequia" says it all