IATRA Question... easy.. help me out!

[boozy]

I'm studying for the IATRA using Aerocourse 4th edition book. I seem to have a problem with the answer to one of the questions. Basically, in an IFR departure one of the conditions is that you are at 35 over the departure end of the runway. I've always understood the runway to be well... the runway! The question basically says the answer is the Runway plus the Clearway. I think the answer is wrong. Anyone care to comment.

[single_swine_herder]

Boozy:

You can accelerate over clearway off the end of the pavement (if there is a clearway) to achieve climb speed and airspace for the obstacle clearance slope of the climb gradient starts at the end of the clearway. If no clearway is present, the start of the departure slope begins at the end of the pavement as you suspected.

Although very silly, with zero margin for errors, a pilot could rotate and lift off in the last few feet of pavement, and accelerate over the grass, reach climb speed, and gain altitude of 35 ft to enter the obstacle clearance slope of 152 ft / NM.

Here's an example of a Russian aircraft doing that ..... the pucker factor in the front end must have been substantial ... at least mine would have been.

http://youtu.be/ThoZNxy2JZk

Then its "the usual" aircraft performance minimum of 200 ft / NM to at least 400 ft above aerodrome elevation before turning in any direction, and continuing 200 ft / NM to safe altitude for en route operations.

Yes, that oversimplified description leaves out many factors, but gives the basis for the answer.

Hope that clarifies for you.

Here's a quick visualization of the criteria, but the diagram is for a runway without a clearway off the end for establishing the climb and reaching 35 feet at the end of the clearway.

http://expertaviator.com/2011/02/03/dep ... -of-climb/

[AuxBatOn]

Pretty clear in the AIM:

Aerodromes that have an instrument approach procedure
published in CAP also have a procedure referred to as an IFR
departure procedure. IFR departure procedures are expressed
in the form of “Takeoff Minima” on the aerodrome chart,
and meet obstacle and terrain clearance requirements. These
procedures are based on the premise that on departure an
aircraft will:
(a) cross at least 35 feet above the departure end of the runway;

What the approach design is based upon and what the regulation say may be different but if it is, the regulation will be normally safer (like it is now). I know people design approach climb gradient for departure from the clearway... But it is NOT what the rules say.

[boozy]

Still a little unclear here, I guess I'm looking for precisely what the "Departure end of the runway" is.

Single swine herder, you seem to agree with my aerocourse book in that this is the hard surface of the runway plus the clearway if there is one. I don't know where you have that information though.

Auxbaton your reference to the AIM seems "clear" to me since that's what I've been referring to myself. The emphasis on runway has always implied to me that clearway and or stopway are not what you should be over at 35 feet. I'm not sure what you mean after your reference though. Do you agree with me or with Single swine herder?

Anyone else?

[single_swine_herder]

I got my info from watching over the shoulder of, and talking to people who plan those departures. They do it as a practical fudge factor if clearway is available .... rightly or wrongly.

Aux Batt has quoted from the CAP, and is correct to do so because that is what is released to the public.

[rxl]

SSH is correct.

[rxl]

With all due respect, and I don't intend a hijack BUT ... how many people on here know what a "Single Swine" is?

Just curious.

rxl

[Meddler]

I know I know!

[single_swine_herder]

The nickname for the deHaviland Single Otter in the region where I flew was "The Single Swine," because of it's poor performance. I flew one for a single miserable season .... the slaves that built the pyramids had a better lifestyle and were happier.

I can say it is the only aircraft I have been near that I ended up hating...... not so much for the airplane, but the lousy work it was tasked with at the company I was working for.

My first job assignment after being released by the Chief Pilot was to move 50 drums of jet fuel to a lake about 15 miles away and unload (by myself) into the water and roll them through Loon shit and stack them up for a helicopter operator which was going to service a diamond drilling camp.

And that type of work was my summer .. a huge trip was maybe 60 miles flying heavy weird crap .... and in those days the payscale was based exclusively on mileage..... ruined my back, damaged my hearing, vibrated my brain loose on it's mounts, and God only knows what kind of other brain damage it did. The good part was it gave me the incentive to finish my instrument rating.

In my days of the Beaver, 185, etc I had always wondered why the Otter pilots were the most short-tempered, miserable buggers on the base. After that summer, I knew why and whenever I see a Single Otter being loaded, my first reaction is .... "you poor bastard."

Some people liked it though .... more power to 'em.

[AuxBatOn]

I KNOW that this is how the departure is TERPS'ed.... I have to deal with this fairly regularly.

HOWEVER. This is NOT what the RULES (from which we derive our authority to fly and how we conduct that flying) say when it comes from executing . There is no definition of "runway" in the CARs.

All it says is to be 35' above the departure end on an IFR departure procedure. In this case, since there is no definition and no other guidance, it could be argued that the point at which the airplane shall be at 35' AGL is open to pilot interpretation.

As a pilot (which is what the IATRA tests...), you need to know the RULES. Not how the departures are DESIGNED.

It is normal that the standards at which we design the procedures is higher (or more liberal) and that we restrict how we execute them to take into account unplanned factors.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The "Aerodrome Standards and Recommended Practices" manual is incorporated by reference at CAR 300.01(b) and therefor has legal standing. It provides a definition of "runway"