Association of professional aircraft pilots of Canada

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Should an association of professional aircraft pilots of Canada be created ?
One whose aim would be to speak on behalf of all professional pilots
to Transport Canada
to the media
to the government
would have a seat on CARAC.

The college of pilots has been trying to do something similar but too many people are against the College and its limited stated goals.

How about something more simple, straightforward and inclusive of all professional pilots ? I cant find statistics, but I think that there are over 25,000 of us in this country. That is one loud voice.

We need someone to speak on our behalf in a loud and clear voice that the government will listen to, that the media will listen to.

Creating an association is not that difficult. Could some retired pilots (possibly in YOW) with loads of experience not take it upon themselves to create such an association that would include every single pilot that has a commercial or airline licence?

No one is looking out for us. The industry has it associations. The individual unions do not and cannot speak on behalf of all pilots. We need something and we need it bad.

Comments ? Ideas ? Suggestions ?

[BE20 Driver]

If the College won't speak about big issues such as TFW's, then I'd be for someone who would. It's not just TFW's but other issues like the ridiculousness of dealing with CATSA etc. These things affect all professional pilots but everything is currently dealt with on a case by case, company by company approach.

[Krimson]

It's not just TFW's but other issues like the ridiculousness of dealing with CATSA etc.

Let's also standardize the temperature of coffee.

Where does it stop? Create a national seniority list? Jumpseats? Unions? How many colleges do we need?

[Panama Jack]

If there aren't enough people to get behind the College because it isn't radical enough to satisfy or represent their own specialized agendas, then any other association will be similarly stillborn.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

PJ, who sits on CARAC committees right now to represent professional pilots ? A couple unions called ALPA and ACPA two airline unions. Do you think these unions represent all Canadian pilots ?

Or maybe you think that COPA can defend the interests of Helicopter pilots in Northern Alberta or Cropduster pilots in the Prairies ?

WE need a VOICE! Right now, we have none.

[AirFrame]

Well, there's always COPA...

[Rogerdodger2]

Should an association of professional aircraft pilots of Canada be created ?
One whose aim would be to speak on behalf of all professional pilots
to Transport Canada
to the media
to the government
would have a seat on CARAC.

The college of pilots has been trying to do something similar but too many people are against the College and its limited stated goals.

How about something more simple, straightforward and inclusive of all professional pilots ? I cant find statistics, but I think that there are over 25,000 of us in this country. That is one loud voice.

We need someone to speak on our behalf in a loud and clear voice that the government will listed to, that the media will listen to.

Creating an association is not that difficult. Could some retired pilots (possibly in YOW) with loads of experience not take it upon themselves to create such an association that would include every single pilot that has a commercial or airline licence?

No one is looking out for us. The industry has it associations. The individual unions do not and cannot speak on behalf of all pilots. We need something and we need it bad.

Comments ? Ideas ? Suggestions ?

Gilles,
It is very presumptuous to think that every professional pilot in this country would want to be represented by you or by an organization with the same political agenda. I can tell you there are hundreds if not thousands who don't agree with your positions (contrary to your beliefs). To say this organization is or would be a voice for all pilots would be a farce and completely inaccurate. Perhaps that's why the College wont side with you. Because they understand your agenda is not representative of all of their members or the pilots in this country. If you're going to create such organizations and claim to represent a group you MUST present all opinions and positions. If this new group gets off the ground, I doubt it will, and mandates itself to present all thoughts and positions of its members I will sign up.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Let's also standardize the temperature of coffee.

Where does it stop? Create a national seniority list? Jumpseats? Unions? How many colleges do we need?

The College as it stands has less than 1000 members in good standing, including myself. I support it but the general professional pilot population clearly does not.

Seniority lists ? Do not confuse this with a Union.

We do not need several Associations or Colleges, or whatever you want to call it, but we need at least one. Right now, for all practical purposes, we have none.

Gilles

[teacher]

I Do not agree that a new more radical association is needed but a more vocal approach is needed with the college. The college needs more support not less. The more support they get the more of a voice they will have. The college's opinion will have more weight with a greater number of pilots behind it.

You want the college to have more of a voice and a louder one? Become a member and tell them that is what you want as a member!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I Do not agree that a new more radical association is needed but a more vocal approach is needed with the college. The college needs more support not less. The more support they get the more of a voice they will have. The college's opinion will have more weight with a greater number of pilots behind it.

You want the college to have more of a voice and a louder one? Become a member and tell them that is what you want as a member!

Who said anything about a more Radical Association ?
If the college voiced one single opinion on any subject related to our profession, it would already be more vocal than it has been so far........
I would love to see the College have more pilots behind it. I am CPPC #70 and am in good standing order. But I see that many pilots are against it, because of its very narrow initial stated aims, which would in any case require for TC relinquish some of its prerogatives, something I am very skeptical about.

This is why I think we should create a simple Pilots Association with the broader aim of defending professional pilots interest at large.

[Krimson]

This is why I think we should create a simple Pilots Association with the broader aim of defending professional pilots interest at large.

If the current college became more vocal it would generate a lot of new members. However I do not agree with the foreign pilot witchhunt, and could not back an organization to fight someone else's interests.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This is why I think we should create a simple Pilots Association with the broader aim of defending professional pilots interest at large.

If the current college became more vocal it would generate a lot of new members. However I do not agree with the foreign pilot witchhunt, and could not back an organization to fight someone else's interests.

If you feel its right for 75+ aircraft operators in Canada to have hired hundreds of foreign pilots each single calender year, mostly on the pretext that Canadians were not qualified to fly the aircraft but that the foreigners were, it is your right.
In fact, maybe such a Pilot's association, in a general membership vote, could wholly agree with you and mandate the association to actually promote the hiring of TFW pilots in Canada.

[timel]

If the college could start at least by taking stances on easy subjects like: (I'm sure I could find a couple)

Pilots working for free or at ridiculous wages, it has nothing to do with labour disputes, money is the base of any profession except for pilots, especially in some 702-703 ops. There should be a basic code of conduct for pilots with the aim of making the profession better. What is a professional pilot for the college?

They could also make a list of basic priorities or list companies that carry excellent pilot values. I have to admit they have done some work with developing their message but it is still not clear.

The message given to an 705 pilot vs a 703 is very different.

I Do not agree that a new more radical association is needed but a more vocal approach is needed with the college. The college needs more support not less. The more support they get the more of a voice they will have. The college's opinion will have more weight with a greater number of pilots behind it.

You want the college to have more of a voice and a louder one? Become a member and tell them that is what you want as a member!

The last time I wrote to them the email came back on the French web version. I sent an other one using an alternate mail for which I never got any feed-back.

[Cadismack]

Not that it's in the realm of reasonable or even practical possibility but what about a self regulated Professional Organization that is responsible for not only advocacy but ethics, codes of conduct and licensing/membership. I'm sure it's been debated on here before but the CPAs (née CGA, CMA or CAs) have been self regulated for some time and are respected as professionals in their field. It took some time but there are certain functions in accounting that are actually legislated as being required to be completed by a designated professional. I suppose the college attempted this in some form but it doesn't appear to be getting traction.

I am certainly not intelligent enough to know how it works but after leaving the industry I have recently earned an HR designation with an association that is taking steps for self regulation which will further value the designation amongst employers and perspective members.

Now I know the TC has it's own agenda but perhaps the ATPL could be self regulated by the industry as a professional designation. As a regulatory body it could regulate the few questionable pilots out there but more importantly would offer a unified voice amongst professional pilots who so yearn for advocacy in the industry.

I never completed my a's personally but the process seems rather frivolous in terms of a license and is certainly cumbersome for those trying to demonstrate to TC that they have what it takes. Much like the debate on contrails, how does 1500 hours of experience (especially with the change in copilot time) actually make a cpl qualify as a atpl. Further, as an industry of professionals, there really is no accountability save the reoccurant requirements of a ppc to maintain a current rating. From an employers perspective strictly having your a's doesn't necessarily mean that the potential pilot has demonstrated the competences of someone you want to entrust a million dollar plus or minus piece of equipment too. Hence the liability and a small part of the wide range of reasons for the downward spiral of wages in the industry. Would you rather a CA complete your taxes or a bookkeeper? Both my be qualified but if the CA dicks you around his letters could be on the line. Sure they both could do the same job and in most instances do, but many are prepared to pay more for the certification and the best in the field desire to obtain it for the higher earnings.

Anyways just another rant that I'm sure is an unpopular as any of the other ideas floating around out there, but I think it's safe to say that among a lot of pilots out there , there is a desire to see some sort of reform. Even though many of the ideas out there are shot down by many of the jaded masses in the profession, it's nice to see that some care enough to voice an opinion and would like to see positive change. I hope for the industries sack that it continues to happen and eventually change for the better occurs.

[Panama Jack]

Gilles,

I agree with you that most Canadian professional pilots are unrepresented in front of bodies like CARAC and others. Such is the problem in Western democracies where large interest groups tend to push agendas. The problem is further complicated by the fact that Canadians are, by nature, politically docile. They will usually bitch and moan amongst themselves but rarely take up pen and paper or actually organize to create more critical mass.

The College was created to create a gap in this regard, but even in its infancy you had a considerable amount of people either opposed or not supportive of it because of numerous reasons. Seemingly, because it was not the silver bullet to all of the industry's problems, so individuals decided to opt out and remain with the status quo (a vacuum).

The College is one of the biggest achievements in its I have seen in the 25 years that I have been involved in aviation, and frankly, if it fails then I really don't see anything else coming around the corner anytime soon. I think there will be less enthusiasm for another start-up.

Maybe the solution, Gilles, is to see if an existing pilot association, like ALPA or ACPA, want to restart something akin to the Association of Independent Airmen, which ALPA ran through the 80's and '90's.

[AirFrame]

Not that it's in the realm of reasonable or even practical possibility but what about a self regulated Professional Organization that is responsible for not only advocacy but ethics, codes of conduct and licensing/membership.

This came up when the College held an info session here in Abbotsford. The catch is that the College isn't interested in taking on licensing. Any group that wants to take on licensing for CPL/ATPL will also have to take on PPL, Rec licenses, etc... It'll be an all-or-nothing arrangementm or it won't fly.

Why? Because Transport won't give up the CPL/ATPL licensing and be left with just PPL, Rec, etc.

Personally, I don't think I would want a Professional Pilot's Association, that would probably be focussed on CPL/ATPL issues, managing the Private world.

[Panama Jack]

Similar things have happened- ie CBAA took over a lot of Transport Canada oversight functions of Corporate Aviation, and the Soaring Association of Canada wanted to take over the licensing of gliders and its pilots, not unlike what happens in some other countries.

I happen to be fundamentally opposed to such initiatives. The goal of such organizations is to increase their memberships but I feel that anybody who meets the requirements should be eligible to hold the authorization (license) regardless of whether he supports the objectives of said organization. Secondly, I feel with all the tax being sent to the Fed gov, I like there is some sort of tangible benefit or service being returned in exchange.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Maybe the solution, Gilles, is to see if an existing pilot association, like ALPA or ACPA, want to restart something akin to the Association of Independent Airmen, which ALPA ran through the 80's and '90's.

I didn't know. Anyone know the story behind the failure ?

[Cadismack]

This came up when the College held an info session here in Abbotsford. The catch is that the College isn't interested in taking on licensing. Any group that wants to take on licensing for CPL/ATPL will also have to take on PPL, Rec licenses, etc... It'll be an all-or-nothing arrangementm or it won't fly.

Why? Because Transport won't give up the CPL/ATPL licensing and be left with just PPL, Rec, etc.

Personally, I don't think I would want a Professional Pilot's Association, that would probably be focussed on CPL/ATPL issues, managing the Private world.

Thanks for the info AirFrame. I never thought of it from the 'all or nothing' perspective. I agree with you and as a PPL who doesn't fly for a living anymore I enjoy the relative reprieve I have from bureaucracy and it would make no sense to have a professional association license GA. I suspect its likely why we don't see professionally designated truck drivers.

[DonutHole]

Anybody who has followed the colleges set up knows that their aim is to increase wages by limiting the pilot pool. They want to do this by requiring degrees and having a code of conduct they can enforce.

It says that nowhere on their site, but if they could have the power to grant licenses they would take it... which is bad. Private organizations should NEVER be in charge of issuing privileges.

That is why they have no traction, people see them as a group of extremists who are only out to save the white collar pilots.

Even if you read their mission statement and goals it's contradictory, they say they 'dont want power over licensing' then they go on to say that they want a code of conduct with teeth. It just doesn't make any sense.

as a guy with more years left in aviation than Ive spent in, Im avoiding the college like the plague.