Why?

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Fri May 30, 2014 1:56 pm

If Encore is actually having trouble filling pilot positions aren't any of you concerned that the easiest/cheapest solution would be for westjet to apply to the TFW program and fill those seats with non Canadians?

They have already fulfilled the requirement of attempting to fill it with QUALIFIED nationals but market forces made them look elsewhere.

Same game Sunwing and Air Transat are playing. Also, AC has just wet leased a European charter company to do some 767 summer flying because they don't have the FINs. They blame the fleet shortage on the late 787 deliveries. I think they have just set a precedence.

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Fri May 30, 2014 2:32 pm

yycflyguy wrote:If Encore is actually having trouble filling pilot positions aren't any of you concerned that the easiest/cheapest solution would be for westjet to apply to the TFW program and fill those seats with non Canadians?

They have already fulfilled the requirement of attempting to fill it with QUALIFIED nationals but market forces made them look elsewhere.

You cannot get an LMO/TFWP simply because you do not want to pay market rates. Besides, no foreigner would come to Canada for the crap wages that ENCORE is offering.

The pay is going to go up or ENCORE will be parking Q400's. Biggest mistake would be to continue to cheap out on the pay and try to sell pilots on a WJ seniority number as justification for being the lowest paid Q400 pilots in Canada.

Old fella · Post by **Old fella** » Fri May 30, 2014 2:41 pm

"Also, AC has just wet leased a European charter company to do some 767 summer flying because they don't have the FINs......"

Hey YYCfly.......

Think a "resurrection" is possible to "arise from the dead" and come back as a shiny new one

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Fri May 30, 2014 4:32 pm

rudder wrote:
yycflyguy wrote:If Encore is actually having trouble filling pilot positions aren't any of you concerned that the easiest/cheapest solution would be for westjet to apply to the TFW program and fill those seats with non Canadians?

They have already fulfilled the requirement of attempting to fill it with QUALIFIED nationals but market forces made them look elsewhere.

You cannot get an LMO/TFWP simply because you do not want to pay market rates. Besides, no foreigner would come to Canada for the crap wages that ENCORE is offering.

Better check the TFWs at Sunwing flying B737s because there were no qualified B737 pilots in Canada.

In Canada there is a problem with low time pilots accepting FO positions and working for FREE. The same applies to low time European pilots coming over for that first chance to fly at a lower than market pilot value. It's a global problem.

yycflyguy · Post by **yycflyguy** » Fri May 30, 2014 4:44 pm

Old fella wrote:"Also, AC has just wet leased a European charter company to do some 767 summer flying because they don't have the FINs......"

Hey YYCfly.......

Think a "resurrection" is possible to "arise from the dead" and come back as a shiny new one

I wish!! Too expensive to get the old 767s airworthy when a cheaper alternative was available.

Anyone planning to go to BOG LIM or MAD this July/August will be flown by Eurocharter even though the ticket says Air Canada.

Old fella · Post by **Old fella** » Fri May 30, 2014 6:41 pm

"Anyone planning to go to BOG LIM or MAD this July/August will be flown by Eurocharter even though the ticket says Air Canada."

Is this the first time in AC history where they wet leased another carrier(aircraft and crews) to do your company's flying under the AC banner. One would think and assume this company(Eurocharter) will have the same standards(inflight). As an example if one was to book the upgrade executive class or J(I think that is what it is) on those particular runs would that be the same as what AC provides on their own aircraft. Assuming for those months this level of service to BOG, LIM or MAD is being as advertised. Nothing irks pax more than paying for a service and finding it not as they were led to believe

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Fri May 30, 2014 7:03 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Better check the TFWs at Sunwing flying B737s because there were no qualified B737 pilots in Canada.

Watch for a change in policy from ESDC in respect of "qualified" as it applies to commercial airline pilots. May affect any current or future LMO submissions.

loopa · Post by **loopa** » Fri May 30, 2014 10:20 pm

Its actually nice to see them have a time on type matrix for upgrades! It does make some sense!

BE20 Driver · Post by **BE20 Driver** » Fri May 30, 2014 11:11 pm

rudder wrote:You cannot get an LMO/TFWP simply because you do not want to pay market rates.

Sure they can. That is exactly what companies have been using this program for. McDonald's got the whole restaurant industry banned from the program because McDonalds and other restaurants were using the program to bring in cheap foreign labour for short periods of time (negating paying other benefits for full time permanent employees). I've been arguing that a couple of Canadian vacation airlines have been doing the same thing for several seasons. In both cases, Canadians would likely take the jobs if they provided a liveable wage. To keep this on topic, likely Encore would have higher time applicants if our wages were more inline with other equivalent jobs out there. I doubt however that they will be going the TFW route because of the optics. I'm pretty vocal about the TFW program and I'd like to think that I would become even more vocal if my own company decided to go this route. That's a whole other subject though.

I could see Encore parking Q's for a short time. This isn't just a Canadian problem. I read recently that several startup regional carriers in Japan just cancelled about 1500 flights each because they couldn't find crews for their planes. I sincerely hope that they find enough people because as Bluecoolaid pointed out, if the hiring stalls, I'll end up working 20 days a month again. 18 is bad enough.

JoeyBarton wrote:BE20 Driver, from what I understand, any 705 time will count not just some Q time.

A little further reading shows that you'll get 50% credit for 705 flying on another machine. That's not listed here on Dave's post. I stand corrected good sir.

rudder wrote:Watch for a change in policy from ESDC in respect of "qualified" as it applies to commercial airline pilots. May affect any current or future LMO submissions.

This is getting a little off topic. Here's hoping that qualified means ATPL and willing to work. This is probably better discussed in the TFW thread in the general section.

bluecoolaid · Post by **bluecoolaid** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:50 pm

Finally have a day off to update you. Already some of the information in my earlier post is out of date.

Yes the matrix is correct.

Our compensation review came out over the weekend. What changed? The number of companies that WestJet used to compare our salaries to was increased. As a policy we will maintain industry -10% payscales. FO's got a cost of living increase of 1%. Captains got a 4% lift to bring them more inline with their industry peers (less 10%).

Pay scales now go out to 5 years which will be important for anyone coming on board now. With between 150-200 pilots on property by the end of the year, it will take anywhere from 3 to 10 years to flow up regardless of what seat you occupy. My guess is that they'll slowly increase the flow to 50% next year, maybe 75% the year after and then 100% in year three. If that's the case, someone in the summer ground schools would likely wait about four years to move up. This is just a guess based on rumours.

Also, the employee stock purchase plan will be maintained at half of the WestJet ESPP. It was felt that we are competitive without increasing this to the level of our peers.

In summary, the gist of the compensation review as I read it is steady-as-she-goes, with a small increase to attract Direct Entry Captains. Since there were not big policy changes, I'm guessing that Encore is still able to attract pilots with sufficient experience.

Management keeps referring to us as a new startup airline. It would be nice if they'd acknowledge that we're not new. We're really a mature successful airline adding a second aircraft type. If you frame the conversation in this way, you'd get a whole new perspective.

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:07 pm

bluecoolaid wrote:Finally have a day off to update you. Already some of the information in my earlier post is out of date.

Yes the matrix is correct.

Our compensation review came out over the weekend. What changed? The number of companies that WestJet used to compare our salaries to was increased. As a policy we will maintain industry -10% payscales. FO's got a cost of living increase of 1%. Captains got a 4% lift to bring them more inline with their industry peers (less 10%).

Pay scales now go out to 5 years which will be important for anyone coming on board now. With between 150-200 pilots on property by the end of the year, it will take anywhere from 3 to 10 years to flow up regardless of what seat you occupy. My guess is that they'll slowly increase the flow to 50% next year, maybe 75% the year after and then 100% in year three. If that's the case, someone in the summer ground schools would likely wait about four years to move up. This is just a guess based on rumours.

Also, the employee stock purchase plan will be maintained at half of the WestJet ESPP. It was felt that we are competitive without increasing this to the level of our peers.

In summary, the gist of the compensation review as I read it is steady-as-she-goes, with a small increase to attract Direct Entry Captains. Since there were not big policy changes, I'm guessing that Encore is still able to attract pilots with sufficient experience.

Management keeps referring to us as a new startup airline. It would be nice if they'd acknowledge that we're not new. We're really a mature successful airline adding a second aircraft type. If you frame the conversation in this way, you'd get a whole new perspective.

Pathetic.

Not you - Encore. Looks like there is no learning curve at YYC HQ. I continue to hope that pilots will show restraint and DO NOT APPLY TO ENCORE.

Eventually when WJ realizes that they will be parking Q400 deliveries, the pay will have to rise to industry standard.

p.s. it is clearly time for a real pilot union at WJ and Encore.

RustyDeuce · Post by **RustyDeuce** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:14 am

"Real pilot union". You realize that sounds bloody ridiculous, don't you? There is no such thing. ACPA? You call that a "real union"? What has it done to stop the reshaping of the industry? Nothing. Encore will pay what it will pay based on supply and demand. When the applicants dry up the wages will go up. Smart people willing to take a short-term hit for long-term job security with a successful airline will see the benefits of applying to work at Encore. Those that don't.... well......... we'll visit in 10 years and see what your "real union" has done for you.

hevyd · Post by **hevyd** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:17 am

Looking at this another way its not so bad.
Kind of like SW temp job posting. The way I see it WJ like SW will get some higher time experienced pilots applying (read KFC). These pilots will get in while trying to get on with AC or WJ.Up to 10 years is a long time to sit in a dash 8. If AC calls there is not much holding them back but a veiled promise of a B737 job somewhere in the future. I don't see much difference between mainlines anymore. Either is a good option. The rouge contract is very similar to WJ,SW and ex SS. Lots of extra pay avail for extra work.
Good luck boys competition is grand.

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:31 pm

RustyDeuce wrote:"Real pilot union". You realize that sounds bloody ridiculous, don't you? There is no such thing. ACPA? You call that a "real union"? What has it done to stop the reshaping of the industry? Nothing. Encore will pay what it will pay based on supply and demand. When the applicants dry up the wages will go up. Smart people willing to take a short-term hit for long-term job security with a successful airline will see the benefits of applying to work at Encore. Those that don't.... well......... we'll visit in 10 years and see what your "real union" has done for you.

You must have taken an extra dose of koolaid.

It is both shocking and disappointing that the WJ pilots are supportive of below standard wages at Encore just to prop up the WJ profit share checks and tbe WJA share price.

Bottom line is that it is a sellers market and Encore is trying to hire DEC not just entry level FO. What you are selling is a crack at WJ by serving penance time at Encore. You better lower the experience bar or find parking spaces for your Q400's.

BE20 Driver · Post by **BE20 Driver** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:19 pm

To correct Bluecoolaid, the FO's got 2.6% ($0.97/credit hour). Captains got 4.3% or $2.92/hour.

My guess is that there have been enough people applying with the DEC job posting that no one felt they needed to up the compensation any higher.

I doubt that we'll reach the point of parking planes. There are enough people wanting to get to mainline that they'll find a cheap way attract applicants.

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:46 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:To correct Bluecoolaid, the FO's got 2.6% ($0.97/credit hour). Captains got 4.3% or $2.92/hour.

My guess is that there have been enough people applying with the DEC job posting that no one felt they needed to up the compensation any higher.

I doubt that we'll reach the point of parking planes. There are enough people wanting to get to mainline that they'll find a cheap way attract applicants.

So if you subtract 2% for COLA, the raw pay increases are 0.6% and 2.3% respectively (and applied to substandard rates).

Like I said - pathetic.

Hope that the WJPA mainline boys and girls get themselves a great big raise as a reward for burying their Encore brothers and sisters.

Duster · Post by **Duster** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:18 pm

Rudder you should know that a great majority of us are disgusted and appalled at the Encore WAWCON. A majority voted for the Encore concept trusting that wage and working conditions would be reasonable. Unfortunately that was not the case. On the upside, there is a stron push to improve conditions as well as go to one pilot list. In addition, the internal union drive (WPPA) is gaining traction daily - hopefully certification will happen sooner rather than later.

Cheers

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:43 pm

Duster wrote:........ In addition, the internal union drive (WPPA) is gaining traction daily - hopefully certification will happen sooner rather than later.

Cheers

Agreed.

flyer 1492 · Post by **flyer 1492** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:56 pm

With a pay increase like that the f/o's would be able to upgrade the Kraft Mac and Cheese.

Flyer

BE20 Driver · Post by **BE20 Driver** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:20 pm

rudder wrote:So if you subtract 2% for COLA, the raw pay increases are 0.6% and 2.3% respectively (and applied to substandard rates).

I did a quick google search. COLA wasn't 2% last year. The national average CPI rate was 0.94% in 2013 according to http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2013.aspx I'm pretty sure that this will be the one that management uses to calculate our raises. If you live in an average part of the country, you were given a 1.66% and 3.36% increase in pay.

That said, Calgary is 3.5 times national average at 3.3% (these numbers run from April 2013-April 2014 vs the previous CPI which quoted Jan-Jan numbers) http://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopment.c ... rs/current Obviously, with the actual inflation for the city in which we are all based in FO's were given a 0.7% decrease in take home pay year-over-year and Captains were given a 1% increase in take home pay.

Just for reference sake, I found a StatsCan CPI table for various cities in Canada last year. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau ... 2a-eng.htm

rudder · Post by **rudder** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:30 pm

BE20 Driver wrote:
I did a quick google search. COLA wasn't 2% last year. The national average CPI rate was 0.94% in 2013 according to http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates ... -2013.aspx I'm pretty sure that this will be the one that management uses to calculate our raises. If you live in an average part of the country, you were given a 1.66% and 3.36% increase in pay.

That said, Calgary is 3.5 times national average at 3.3% (these numbers run from April 2013-April 2014 vs the previous CPI which quoted Jan-Jan numbers) http://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopment.c ... rs/current Obviously, with the actual inflation for the city in which we are all based in FO's were given a 0.7% decrease in take home pay year-over-year and Captains were given a 1% increase in take home pay.

Just for reference sake, I found a StatsCan CPI table for various cities in Canada last year. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau ... 2a-eng.htm

It still just all equals one thing ....... pathetic.

True North · Post by **True North** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:37 pm

Duster wrote:In addition, the internal union drive (WPPA) is gaining traction daily - hopefully certification will happen sooner rather than later.

Yeah, that'll help...

BE20 Driver · Post by **BE20 Driver** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:58 pm

Unless the company was preposing 0%, I can't say the WJPA has had any traction in improving things.

Red1 · Post by **Red1** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:15 am

And the union will come in and wave a magical wand and things will immediately get better, wages will increase days off too. We will get free hot meals and tip allowances and new sweaters, and fancy uniforms, with decals, management will run for the hills because of the mighty union....

It's simple economics people, supply and demand. It the supply of pilots is too large wages go down, not enough and the demand is strong wages go up. Let the market dictate.

Justin.Case · Post by **Justin.Case** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:14 am

Red1 wrote:It's simple economics people, supply and demand. It the supply of pilots is too large wages go down, not enough and the demand is strong wages go up. Let the market dictate.

Wages don't necessarily have to go up. If you lower the experience requirements you increase the pilot supply... so-long pay raise!

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