When will the madness stop?

[aviate_77]

I know this has all been said before, but.....
MOST of the wages pilots are being paid is absolute BS (No, not the top dog captains). Is there really any incentive for anyone to consider going into aviation these days? Ya sure, if you do it for the money, don't get into it. But these days, some pilots can barely scrape by with what they are being paid. You spend 50k going to school, work some shitty jobs for 3-5 years.... apply to say... Encore, and take a pay cut to expect mid 30k salary as an FO on a pretty damn big airplane. Do they include a bus pass along with this salary ...? But hey, you can get into the 737 eventually, so its all good! The top salaries are quite nice, but the years it takes to get there is insane. Most of the people I talk to in the industry bitch constantly about how terrible aviation is, yet everyone just settles for a crap salary and some flight passes. Can it change? This is becoming a pathetic penny pinching industry, and theres still a line out the door miles long of people wanting the job.

Seems like a pretty lousy 50k investment to me.

I have a feeling MANY people that are considering the industry will see these figures, and think.... you know maybe aviation isn't such a great idea. Just do what you love, and hope like hell you like kraft dinner.


Pilot rant over.

[Rookie50]

You know --- a few thoughts.

It's a democracy last I looked, and people are free to make the choices based on their priorities in life. Some will choose to sacrifice dollars to fly, some will choose another, more lucrative advocation and fly as a hobby only -- or open a business that may or may not be aviation related.

At the end of the day, supply demand will determine the market, and personal choice.

A clear option -- Take a stand, say no, choose another profession -- hopefully balance returns.

The temporary foreign workers -- that's another story which I do not support in this industry in the way it seems to be happening. Goes too far.

[timel]

It's all about supply vs demand.
You have to look at regulations and restrain 705 jobs to a reasonable total hours, as long as you will be able to put a 260 hrs in a b1900 or D8 you won't be able to negociate salaries, lowering ATPL access with copi/pic time regulations is an other way to make supply and demand change. Some pilots say industry will make sure this will never happend. I'm starting to think it is true.

On a more personal note, I can see since 3-4 years a huge demand in pilots for 705 companies such as jazz. Those companies did empty the 703-704 from +4000 hrs captains who are replaced by captains of 1500 hrs. Still now they are having a hard time keeping us from going to Jazz and others. Except training bounds, which is actualy a good thing because someone with a bond will think twice before taking a job at 30k.

Personnaly I think overall it is a good sign for supply and demand. Will those 703-704 ops bosses accept to pay more in order to stop the bleeding. Not sure, they have worked it out this way for years.

Pilots also have to standup and gather within their own companies. Inforturnatly from recent personal experience, you have half willing to standup and put their guts in front and half the other who just want to pass by smoothly and go on to better as soon as they can.

You also have TFW not helping the instrustry as a whole.

I ask myself the questions what does it take for pilots to act as professionals?
How do you refrain those with money growing in their garden to accept ridiculous wages?
How can pilots allow company with active unions to have salary as low as 30k in 705?


For the rest you have alcool and a fun bunch of crazy pilots with who you share your daily misery. Some days it makes it worth fun enough to live it through.

[Justin.Case]

Whenever the industry has me down...

Whenever I feel tempted to take a shit job to advance my career...

Whenever I am searching for the strength to turn a bullshit offer down...

I ask myself "What would 748 Ho do?".

YEP MENS IT'S TIME TO GIVE ALL YOU LOW TIMERS SO PIONTERS SO YOU CAN MAKE TO AC TOO!!!!



1. MEN THIS IS VERY BIG ONE ITS ALL ABOUT "WHO YOU KNOW"

2. ALWAYS TAKE THE MULTI TURBINE JOB!!!!

3. NEVER LICK ASS NO ONE LIKES AN ASS LICKER!!!!

4. ALWAYS NO YOUR CRAP IN A INTERVIEW FIND OUT WHAT THEY ASK BEFORE HAND KNOW THE ANSWERS KNOW WHAT THEY DO!!!!!!!!

5. REMBER THE INTERVEIW IS FOR YOU TO DECIDE IF YOU WANT THE JOB!!!!!!

6. ALWAYS THINK AHEAD FOR WERE YOU WANT TO BE NEXT CHOOSE EMPLOYERS THAT HAVE THE EQUIMENT THAT THE NEXT GUY WANTS TO SEE ON RESUME!!! OVER 12500 MULTI ETC!!!!!

7. REMBER YOU CAN ALWAYS GET THE LAST LAUGH AT KNOBS LIKE CALLIN THEM WHILE THERE STILL FLYIN POP AND CHIPS JUST TO LET THEM KNOW YOUR AT AC NOW!!!!!!

8. BACK UP THE TALK BUY DOIN THE WALK!!!!!!

9. LOOK OUT FOR NUMBER ONE "i KNEW I NEED SOME JET TIME ON THE RESUME GOT IT THEN QUIT AS SOON AS MY SHIP CAME IN HAHHA!!!!!

10. NEVER PAY FOR A JOB SEND ME THE MONEY I WILL WASTE IT FOR YAHHH!!!!!!!!

11. WATCH OUT FOR THE BACK STABBERS THERE ARE LOTS OF THEM WHO LAUGHING NOW!!!!!!!!

12. TAKE SOME PRIDE YOUR A PILOT FLY THAT BAD BOY LIKES IT PART OF YOU BE SMOOTH!!!!!!!!

13. THIS IND. IS ABOUT KICKIN ASS NOT MAKIN FRIENDS IF YOU WANT TO MAKE TO THE TOP!!!!!!!!

men listen good you wanna make little more scratch!!!!!!!THEN LISTEN UP ALL YOU BROOOM FLYIN SHITTER CLEANER PPC BUYIN PUSSEYS !!!!!!! TELLEM TO STICK IT UP THERE ASS I DID!!!! LIKE I PAY 40K TO TRAIN TO DRIVE A FORKLIFT AND WIPE UP CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM PILOT!!!!!! TAKE THAT BOND SHOVE UP YOUR ASS !!!!!! TAKE YOUR EARNNNNIN YOUR DUES BULLSHIT WORK THE RAMP CRAP AND LAUGH RIGHT ATTEM!!!!!!!!!I AINT DOIN THAT CRAP BUDDY!!!!!!!YAHHHHH YOU ALL DID THAT MEN AND THERE WERE NOT SO MANY PUSSEYS AND BITCHES THAT CALL THEMSELFS PILOTS !!!!!!! GET RID OF THAT CRAP MEN THEN WE WOULD ALL BE PPPPHATTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!YAHHHHHH MEN!!!!!!

And while I'm at it, how about this little inspirational gem about checking your ego and not being a complete douche!

YAHHHH MEN ALL THIS WEEK AFTER MY BENDER LAST WEEK BEEN FLYIN WITH ONE OF THOSES OLD SCHOOL AC CAPTAINS WHO SHOULD JUST A DICK WHO SHOULD RETIRE!!!!!!! CAPTAIN PR*X JUST SIT THERE WITH A SCOUL ON HIS FACE ALLL DAY MEN!!!!!!!!!!!! THE KNOB THINKS HE IS THE CAT ASS!!!!BECAUSE LIKE HALF MILLION YEARS AGO HE WAS IN THE AIR FORCE WHO CARES !!!!!

BUDDY GOT TO TAKE A CHILL PILL AND GET HIS ROCK OFF LETS FACE IT A CHIMP CAN FLY HER WE AINT PUTTIN HER DOWN IN THE PANG HUNG OVER AS F*CK!!!!!!

KICK ASS MEN AND F UCAPTIAN PR*X!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THERE! FEEL BETTER!?!?!?!

[aviate_77]

YAHHHHHH MEN !!!!!!

[sstaurus]

Hahaha. Brought a tear to my eye.

[hadiiz]

Well said!

[BTD]

I never understood the "I paid so much for my training therefore I should be paid..." Argument.

How much you paid for training is irrelevant to your employer. It is about your skill set once you show up at the door. For any industry.

Other arguments for higher pay have more validity. Never understood this one

[aviate_77]

The cost of training is not the issue. Regardless of the price of training, the same 2 guys in the pointy end of the plane are responsible for the safety of everyone onboard. 35k is a mind-blowing number to accept some of that responsibility. That's all I'm saying.

The 50k for training just makes it worse for all of us financially.

[Bede]

Ah, 748 ho, there's a handle I haven't heard from in a while. The guy's a classic. I hope he comes back sometimes soon. He always made me laugh especially when some new guy tried to hassle him.

[frozen solid]

I never really knew what way to take his posts. He kind of gave me a headache, a little bit.

[lilflyboy262]

Its all about priorities.

I'm 27 now with approaching 3500hrs. Its enough for regionals easily, but like being said, the pay is crap. I'm now earning $72,000 USD AFTER tax, with accommodation and food paid for. I work a 40/20 roster so loads of time off. Aircraft I am flying? A C208B EX.

Whether it is fast, or slow, holds 12 people or 120 people.... a plane is a plane, and it flies. Whats the rush to move up into a company that pays rubbish, and you are never home. Chances are, you will get bored of the airline stuff within 5-10yrs anyway... so whats the hurry to be bored for the rest of your life?

You can blame the companies... but its us as pilots that have landed ourselves in the s*** because we are willing to sacrifice all to get in the big tin just to satisfy our egos and become "real pilots".

[timel]

Its all about priorities.

I'm 27 now with approaching 3500hrs. Its enough for regionals easily, but like being said, the pay is crap. I'm now earning $72,000 USD AFTER tax, with accommodation and food paid for. I work a 40/20 roster so loads of time off. Aircraft I am flying? A C208B EX.

Whether it is fast, or slow, holds 12 people or 120 people.... a plane is a plane, and it flies. Whats the rush to move up into a company that pays rubbish, and you are never home. Chances are, you will get bored of the airline stuff within 5-10yrs anyway... so whats the hurry to be bored for the rest of your life?

You can blame the companies... but its us as pilots that have landed ourselves in the s*** because we are willing to sacrifice all to get in the big tin just to satisfy our egos and become "real pilots".

That's a great example on the effects of highering pays and conditions in 703-704. It can just be good for everyone higher up. Most captains are at lowest 45-50k, it is still quite a drop to go down 30k at 3000 hrs.

Most pilots just want to move ASAP in a companie where only seniority matters like AC in order to reach high salaries the faster you can. Still what does Encore, GGN have to offer on long term?

[x-wind]

I don't think it's black and white supply vs demand. Not at all actually. Business has evolved to collectively attack the lifestyle of middle class with the assistance of government & banks.

There is a demand for competent pilots. However, larger business are now putting the cap on what they'll entertain, they've enough power to do that as they wish.

Read some posts by Gilles on what the new business models are. In a summary: start wages dirt low with increases to comfortable living over 10 years. After 15 years of operation let the company get purchased or fold & start things over at year one again. Revolving door ...

Only thing modern capitalism would seem to be progressing with is the idea of profit sharing IMHO. Originally not such a capitalist ideal ...

[InAmig]

I am taking up flying as a hobbie not as a profession so I cannot confidently comment on the state of the industry, rates of pay, TFW etc... I don't know if this thread was just to make light of buddies all caps posts or whatever but in efforts to be constructive I thought I'd share some of my experience. I work in high tech and have moved up quickly because of a few factors.

What I do see here is people unwilling to start off or accept a lower more entry level salary. I made a choice once to take $5K less a year to move from an advanced tech support call centre agent to a Jr. IT technican (yes Junior was in my job title) for all the computers in the call centre. Five years later I was the manager of that site and several others in the area and around North America.

My observation from reading the forums here is that it's not hard to find work but hard to find well paying work. There is a bitter tone across many posts. What will matter most. I stress, the MOST important skill that anyone can posses is a positive attitude. In your work and with your coworkers. Once you're known to be easy to work with, helpful and have built relationships and camaraderie with everyone. You will be well equiped to earn the higher paycheck. Glowing recommendations and a well built resume showing you doing the jobs that most pilots hate. Which leads to the next one. Be a hard worker. Sounds simple? Most people don't do it. At a young age I was diagnosed with a learning disability and was treated in school as a special needs case. While I have to admit, I'm not the smartest person in tech and I wasn't the smartest person to graduate. I learned through sports that I could out-work someone who was better than me. I applied that in school and then I could always out-work those know-it-alls and get better marks.

In my opinion. Take the jobs that pay shit because it really is a no lose situation. It can only lead to more opportunity within the airline and if it doesn't you gain experience and can seek out the next step in your career. Out work the others around you and (I believe) you'll be in the air quicker and for longer.

Those two things might sound contradictory but in my experience they work (I made 90K last year at the ripe age of 31)

Again, a disclaimer: I've only started reading these forums and this is just my experience and what I've read so far. Not meaning to over step what this thread was going for and don't mean any offense to some specific unfair practices that are going on in the industry.

Cheers!

[Krimson]

InAmig, if only aviation followed suit like other practices. The problem isn't just putting your head down and working hard. With the exception of who you know, you must basically wait your turn. You need hours to advance into the positions you would like to, there are many things which limit job choices, contrails, insurance, licences, etc. You could be next . Yeager, but without connections or a solid logbook, you're not going to be invited to play with the big boys.

The other thing is, in your field, making your $90k, you will never make significantly less than $90k. Larger companies will pay you more to have you transfer to their side. Or at least the same with other perks. You can count on making that $90k minimum no matter where else you would like to go. IT companies are in nice cities, with hundreds of firms available to work for. Compared to aviation, we MUST take a pay cut when we switch to the airlines. You can be making well over $100k at your previous job, but if you want that airline position, you're starting right back at the bottom making ~$40k. Shit schedule, shit pay. There's no way around it, it's all seniority based. How's that for making a move to the majors after 8 solid years of direct experience, many years as captain. So you can either take that pay cut and wait it out, "paying your dues" until you're back up to a descent pay before your kids leave for college. Or you can give up on that airline dream and make a descent living.
The other guys, the ones who don't have the luxury of a corner store, live up north where they took those jobs where you suggest to start out, they're up in some small town making enough to pay rent, waiting for the day they can return to civilization. Get any experience to be able to come back to a city >10,000 people. Guess what, back to the bottom you go.

You could have the most positive attitude and be the hardest worker, but you are always going to start at the bottom with every move you make. There's also a limited number of operators at each airport, so the choices are fairly narrow. You can't start up your own airline, and you can't take shortcuts on your logbook. The aviation industry is a very different beast.

Have fun flying as a hobby, you'll have a blast. It's why we deal with it all, it's just far from perfect.

[InAmig]

Wow, thanks for insight Krimson. That is really a rough way to treat experienced people. It's just those two factors which connected me to the people I know in the industry and my reputation among them that has helped. Those skills can usually transition many other industries.

The only paralell I can draw is if I supported some other kind of technical infrastructure, or was a programmer then I applied as a server admin, I wouldn't carry over that 90K, I would have to take the minimum because I don't have experience as a server admin. Also, as a first time manager, I only made 50K, 2K more than when I was a tech but about 20K short of all my peers within the company. It's cliche but, short term pain for long term gain. In my case, the experience was worth the lower pay.

Thanks for the encourgement too. Pretty excited to get started.

[airspeed250]

Sounds like seniority lists are a major drawback.

I don't understand how you are not paid based on your experience and performance... like most other careers. An accountant with ten years of experience moving to a new firm won't have to start at the bottom so why do pilots?

If a senior FO leaves their company for another, are you saying he/she starts at the bottom of pay and benefits along with someone who is starting with minimum experience for the same seat?

[HiLo]

If a senior FO leaves their company for another, are you saying he/she starts at the bottom of pay and benefits along with someone who is starting with minimum experience for the same seat?

Yes. The only difference between a retired AC skipper and a Navajo driver applying to Sky Regional is the AC guy is guaranteed the job.

[timel]

Speaking of madness there is this french article (sorry couldn't find it in english) with European French pilots who paid for their 737 training and making as much from 150 euros to 1000 euros per monthes to fly. So paying to fly. This is madness. Idiots accepting to pay to fly... What's wrong with pilots.

http://www.franceinfo.fr/emission/le-pl ... map=%5B%5D

[HiLo]

Speaking of madness there is this french article (sorry couldn't find it in english) with European French pilots who paid for their 737 training and making as much from 150 euros to 1000 euros per monthes to fly. So paying to fly. This is madness. Idiots accepting to pay to fly... What's wrong with pilots.

http://www.franceinfo.fr/emission/le-pl ... map=%5B%5D

The Quebecois might elect Marois, but at least they're not this stupid.

Ahhh shit, I just gave Sunwing an idea....damit.

[Krimson]

If a senior FO leaves their company for another, are you saying he/she starts at the bottom of pay and benefits along with someone who is starting with minimum experience for the same seat?

I know many people with under 1000 hours, new to the industry, that are more senior to guys with 4000-6000 hours; 15+ years in.