RCAF TFW Pilots

[Gilles Hudicourt]

http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/can ... _jets.html

[HiLo]

Front page, at that....although it seems surprising that only a fraction of RCAF pilots spots are filled, according to an earlier globe article, especially considering the great WAWCON.

[trampbike]

However, the military says it is trying to recruit Canadians to serve as pilots.

[HiLo]

However, the military says it is trying to recruit Canadians to serve as pilots.

It's the Star, what did you expect?

[ogc]

I was laughed out of a recruitment office 5 years ago for wanting to put in an application for pilot.

University degree and 26 years old. I was told i was too old and they had no need.

[trampbike]

This is bullsh$t.
There are people in the training system that are over 40 years old.
Maybe the DEO program was closed at the time you wanted to apply.
If this is what you want to do, get the info you need by yourself, apply and wait.

[B52]

The RCAF according to the Star today, can not really be considered to be in contempt
of the TFW program.

In the highly specialized areas, commonwealth countries are regularly
attempting to recruit experts from each other.

I'd predict that just as many Canadians take job offers in places like Australia.

[Gannet167]

The article fails to address the vast experience that comes with these people. Training a fully qualified, combat ready pilot may take well over a decade if you consider the requirement to complete a university degree, French training, numerous delays in the training system, and of course all the grueling training itself. Many will enter the program, fewer will actually pass. Even if you only consider the flight training portion of building a new military pilot, it's often a 4 or 5 year process - and at the completion of the training you have a minimally qualified squadron member who has 250 hours total time and no experience. The balance of their career will be spent doing upgrades, gaining qualifications etc. To replace a military pilot with 15 years of experience and numerous qualifications you need about 15 years, many millions of dollars and serviceable aircraft.

Hiring guys with that very unique and vast experience not only saves money, it saves precious time and allows very experienced pilots to be involved in training the new ones coming through the system.

A doctor freshly out of medical school is an "MD" but isn't nearly as capable as the brain surgeon with 15 years experience and 100's of surgeries. No one seems to get upset when we hire foreign doctors so your emergency room waiting time is less. I disagree with the TFW program in commercial airlines. However, you can't simply run an advertisement for a fighter weapons instructor qualified, military instrument check pilot, A2 instructional category, night deck landing qualified, etc etc pilot in the newspaper. It's quite different than advertising for a 767 captain with minimum x hours.

The guys being brought to Canada are excellent and we should all be quite happy to have their talents.

[HiLo]

Also, no offence, but a Transat pilot likely has no idea about the military's specific and unique crew needs.

It's like using a cost-benefit to run a police department, or a military, although my experience can only speak to the former.

[Posthumane]

The Transat guy in that article is way out of his lane. The military needs experienced guys to fly the hardware NOW and help future pilots. I don't see how getting those experienced guys into the seats takes work away from Canadians wanting to go through the training system. If anything, it helps alleviate the backlogs caused by a lack of experienced instructors.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The RCAF according to the Star today, can not really be considered to be in contempt
of the TFW program.

In the highly specialized areas, commonwealth countries are regularly
attempting to recruit experts from each other.

I'd predict that just as many Canadians take job offers in places like Australia.

Find me a developped country that has non citizen military pilots in its Air Force and I will Fed Ex you a case of beer. You are only likely to encounter this in Air Forces like the UAE or Saudi Arabia and even in those places I doubt it.

Canada became the first developped nation that had an Airline with more foreign pilots than local pilots (Sunwing) and now we become the only Western nation with Foreign mercenary pilots.

(Exchange pilots don't count. I mean foreign pilots employed as full time military pilots.)

[HiLo]

Canada became the first developped nation that had an Airline with more foreign pilots than local pilots (Sunwing).

Total BS and you know it.
Dubai, Qatar, Hong Kong, Taiwan........developed countries, last I checked......

[TommyJet]

Find me a developped country that has non citizen military pilots in its Air Force and I will Fed Ex you a case of beer.

After a 3 second search...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Britis ... of_Britain

Guinness works for me, or that Unibroue stuff actually isn't bad either

[kev994]

Australia hired a large number of commonwealth pilots a couple years ago.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Australia hired a large number of commonwealth pilots a couple years ago.

I don't know about "large" but the rest of your statement seems factual.......

[Posthumane]

The foreign military personnel who are being hired on by the RCAF as experienced pers are filling in spots left behind by experienced RCAF officers, they are not taking spots away from pilot candidates awaiting training. Also, they are not temporary workers but rather have to sign an agreement that they will get their citizenship within a certain time frame.

[B208]

Australia hired a large number of commonwealth pilots a couple years ago.

I don't know about "large" but the rest of your statement seems factual.......

It is factual, now send him his beer and stop talking.

The military training system is going full tilt right now, it just can't keep up with the demand. The RCAF is losing experienced pilots faster than it can make them. The guys that are getting hired bring a unique skill set that can not be found in Canada. You can't take an airline Captain and make him a Search and Rescue Air Craft Commander, nor an Air to Air Refueling A/C, much less a Fighter Lead in Instructor. The author of the article really had no understanding of the situation; mind you I think his source is the one that shold shoulder the blame for that (the blind leading the ignorant).

[chu me]

I am by no means an expert on the needs of the military. However the question needs to be asked, why are all our qualified , experienced pilots leaving our military ? If a program based on retention was implemented it seems to me we wouldn't have this recruitment problem in the first place. According to a few friends I have in the RCAF, the military does not compete with the civilian airlines in terms of pay and lifestyle, therefore they lose the experienced ones. So it seems that our military is not willing to pay Canadian RCAF pilots for their experience and the pilots leave. This is a cost saving matter, the choice is made by the Canadian military to hire cheaper foreign pilots rather than pony up to pay RCAF pilots to stay. This situation very similar to what is taking place in the civilian world by using the TFW to save money. So I would say that the Air Transat pilot is bang on. Just remember you can be replaced by cheaper foreign pilots too .......if this abuse of the TFW is allowed to continue. The RCAF should be leading the country, not following along with those that do not want to hire canadians because it cost a little more to do so.

There I'm boys, have at'er

Sincerely

Chu me

[snoopy]

If the RCAF were truly short of pilots, then they could do like the USAF does and employ reservists. While the RCAF does employ some reserve pilots, it is nowhere near the extent that the USAF does. And I seriously doubt the USAF would accept one non-citizen in their ranks, let alone dozens of them!

Not that long ago a fairly high ranking RCAF officer told me that Ottawa had restricted the use of reserve pilots in favour of hiring off the street. If the RCAF is so short on pilots, then maybe Ottawa should re-think it's restriction and start hiring experienced Canadian civilian pilots to fill in the gaps.

Trading foreign pilots on a reciprocal basis for the purposes of exchanging information, expertise and training would be perfectly acceptable. Bringing TFW pilots into our national air force before hiring existing Canadians? Appalling.

But hey, look at all the money they save.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Posthumane]

I am by no means an expert on the needs of the military. However the question needs to be asked, why are all our qualified , experienced pilots leaving our military ? If a program based on retention was implemented it seems to me we wouldn't have this recruitment problem in the first place. According to a few friends I have in the RCAF, the military does not compete with the civilian airlines in terms of pay and lifestyle, therefore they lose the experienced ones. So it seems that our military is not willing to pay Canadian RCAF pilots for their experience and the pilots leave. This is a cost saving matter, the choice is made by the Canadian military to hire cheaper foreign pilots rather than pony up to pay RCAF pilots to stay. This situation very similar to what is taking place in the civilian world by using the TFW to save money. So I would say that the Air Transat pilot is bang on. Just remember you can be replaced by cheaper foreign pilots too .......if this abuse of the TFW is allowed to continue. The RCAF should be leading the country, not following along with those that do not want to hire canadians because it cost a little more to do so.

Retention in the military is a complex subject which goes well beyond having competitive wages with a business that does marginally similar work. Being an officer in the military and being an airline pilot are very different lifestyles. Also, pilot pay in the RCAF is quite good in comparison to civilian aviation work, especially for the first 10-15 years of a career. Lastly, as mentioned, these are not temporary foreign workers, they are becoming permanent canadian citizens in order to fulfil a role in which they have lots of experience. In that sense it is no different than the efforts to attract trained engineers, doctors, etc. from commonwealth countries.

If the RCAF were truly short of pilots, then they could do like the USAF does and employ reservists. While the RCAF does employ some reserve pilots, it is nowhere near the extent that the USAF does. And I seriously doubt the USAF would accept one non-citizen in their ranks, let alone dozens of them!

Not that long ago a fairly high ranking RCAF officer told me that Ottawa had restricted the use of reserve pilots in favour of hiring off the street. If the RCAF is so short on pilots, then maybe Ottawa should re-think it's restriction and start hiring experienced Canadian civilian pilots to fill in the gaps.

In order to have a large cadre of reserve pilots you need to have large reserve training facilities near large urban centres, which are somewhat incompatible.
Regarding hiring experienced civilian pilots - where are those? Which civilian pilots hold the necessary experience/qualifications to instruct fighter training, anti-submarine warfare, etc? The military doesn't need experienced 737 drivers as that's not what they do. Someone with an ATPL would still not be able to skip more than the first phase of military flight training, and none of the officer training, which puts them only slightly ahead of the off-the-street candidate with no experience at all.

[AuxBatOn]

Gilles, who in Canada is qualified to teach CF-18 Operational Training, Anti-Sub warfare, Tactical and strategic airlift in combat zones?

Military flying involves skills above and beyond what civilian pilots do. If you were to join, you'd have to go through a fairly significant conversion, before gaining military experience in yournee tasks before being considered for an instructional tour on a combat aircraft. It would take years. Take a Brit military pilot and it's a matter if weeks/months. Oh and they are not temporary. They are very much permanent.

[B208]

If the RCAF were truly short of pilots, then they could do like the USAF does and employ reservists. While the RCAF does employ some reserve pilots, it is nowhere near the extent that the USAF does. And I seriously doubt the USAF would accept one non-citizen in their ranks, let alone dozens of them!

Not that long ago a fairly high ranking RCAF officer told me that Ottawa had restricted the use of reserve pilots in favour of hiring off the street. If the RCAF is so short on pilots, then maybe Ottawa should re-think it's restriction and start hiring experienced Canadian civilian pilots to fill in the gaps.

Trading foreign pilots on a reciprocal basis for the purposes of exchanging information, expertise and training would be perfectly acceptable. Bringing TFW pilots into our national air force before hiring existing Canadians? Appalling.

But hey, look at all the money they save.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

This situation is complex and has its roots in the "decade of darkness". The pilot trade was closed for most of the 90's; this means that for ~10 years very few new pilots were hired. Most of the experienced guys currently in the RCAF were hired in the late 80s. They are retiring in droves, and they are taking their experience with them. The cadre of pilots that should be taking over the reins from our experienced guys were killed in the womb by Chrétien. The RCAF has a number of pilots with 25+ years in, and it has an even bigger number of pilots with <10 years in. There is nobody left in between.
The training system is running at full power to replace the numbers the RCAF has lost; and it is not succeeding. Even if the Moose Jaw/Portage could train enough pilots to keep the numbers up, there is no way that they could replace the experience and corporate knowledge that has evaporated. Putting a 250 new wings grad in command of a SAR Herc is not a good option. The organization needs experienced pilots to pass on their knowledge to the younger generation; that is what these highly experienced immigrant officers are here to do.

As for the use of reserves; The RCAF makes extensive use of reserve pilots. Pretty much every unit has at least one or two reserve pilots flying. These pilots are, for the most part, retired members of the regular force that went on to civilian careers. If the people of Canada really want the RCAF to have more robust 'off the street' style of reserve pilot cadre, (like the USAF ANG), all they have to do is pony up the money to pay for the training and infrastructure.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I have several colleagues who are ex-RCAF. And there are things that always come up.
An honest question to which I expect an honest reply.
How many RCAF pilots on which the Air Force invested 1.4 giiziions dollars training as Military pilots, are now flying an RCAF desk instead of an aircraft ?
How many RCAF pilots quit when they had reached that time in their career when it was time to spend a few years behind a desk instead of in a cockpit ?

And the solution to that is not putting these guys back in cockpits but importing TFW military pilots, including some who were put in charge of a desk as soon as they arrived (Staff officers they are called).

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles, who in Canada is qualified to teach CF-18 Operational Training, Anti-Sub warfare, Tactical and strategic airlift in combat zones?

Military flying involves skills above and beyond what civilian pilots do. If you were to join, you'd have to go through a fairly significant conversion, before gaining military experience in yournee tasks before being considered for an instructional tour on a combat aircraft. It would take years. Take a Brit military pilot and it's a matter if weeks/months. Oh and they are not temporary. They are very much permanent.

The same guys who always did the teaching.
When the RCAF inducted the CF-18 in the eighties, did we hire ex USMC or USN pilots and Commission them as pilot officers in the RCAF to teach our pilots to operate them ?
When we got the C-130Js and the C-17 did we hire ex USAF pilots and Commission them as pilot officers in the RCAF to teach our pilots to operate them ?

Then why is this suddenly so necessary ?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A 2012 article

http://www.coldlakesun.com/2012/05/01/e ... af-in-2013

"Enrolling foreign military personal with special skills or competencies is of significant benefit to the CF because they represent a direct injection of necessary experience into the Force -- while requiring minimal training, and for little incremental cost - saving us both time and money."