Cat & Doc

[cdnpilot77]

Why question is why are so many people drawn to manufactured drama? Holy Jebus!

Young pilots don't know shit, but think they know everything!
Old pilot know everything, but are old so they forget everything!
Middle aged pilots are clearly the gyro that's keeps this industry upright!

Any belief different from the points above is stupid, irrational and just plain wrong!




*sarcasm

This has turned into yet another thread that belongs on the ridiculist...someone send it to Anderson Cooper!

[youtube]http://youtu.be/xrwf9gSLcNM[/youtube]

[NWONT]

Thanks for making my point cdn.

[cdnpilot77]

Thanks for making my point cdn.

Did you miss the "*sarcasm" note or was that genuine? Hard to read tone.

[Illya Kuryakin]

When I started into this business forty-odd years ago we looked up to and respected the pilots and engineers that went before us. They had the knowledge, skills and experience. When they started talking, we listened because that's how you learned back then. "wooden planes and iron men" Heard that many times. The conditions were harsh, to say the least, what you needed to know to get the job done wasn't written down anywhere and the only way to overcome the challenges was to try to absorb the knowledge from those who had already accomplished these tasks. These days every fresh young candidate is sent to one technical school or the other and after a few short years now knows everything there is to know about modern aviation and just can't wait to thumb their nose at those that have lived through many eras of evolution of aviation that has brought us to this point. Very few, if any of these people wouldn't even consider leaving the ground without an elaborate GPS and just in case that quit.....a second one for a back up. They respect the guy that turns down every flight because of some loophole in the company SOP's. It just makes me sick when I see people like this hurl insults at someone like Catdriver that has flown "Cansos", and many other old birds around the world "With nothing on the clocks but the makers name". What the hell has happened to aviation?

Great post. Very true. I know Cat has flown everything most of us can name. Doc flew DC3's for many years. Clunkdriver has had a long career and much wisdom for the young pilots. If they'd listen? We live in an age of entitlement and instant gratification! No escaping the "it's all about me" attitude of today's pilots. Pity really. It used to be a great industry, where comradely was the buzz word. That's all gone now.
Illya

[Colonel Sanders]

I have been lucky enough in my lifetime to have learned an enormous amount from cranky old pilots that honestly didn't give a sh1t about my delicate feelings. I used to burst into tears a lot in the cockpit, but I'm mostly over that now.

What the old guys taught me, stopped me from crashing and dying. This was very valuable to me, even if the young pilots of today aren't interested in that.

Old pilots have figured out how to survive. Maybe young pilots should, too. Or not.

I guess you need to ask yourself - what's more important to you - aviation, or your feelings?

Sometimes I think this is a website about aviation. Other people seem to think it is a website about their feelings.

[PilotDAR]

Great post NWONT.

I have specifically sought out some of the old timers from here, and PPRuNe, so as to learn more from their wisdom. CAT has been an excellent host a few times. Not only do I learn from these old timers, but I also reinforce good flying habits and wisdom I may already hold, and I am reminded to cast off some of the garbage which can accumulate in one's mind, with perhaps suspect validity.

Some things, like physics are what they are, and we pilots must learn to manage them safely. I don't care what technological innovations come, they ain't changing physics, so even new pilots better learn to manage them, or die. Other things like GPS come along, and are real safety benefits, and should be mastered, as a valuable supplement to good basic pilot skills - not a substitute! (I can remember asking myself how could GPS possibly be better than LORAN? - Yup,it's better, where's LORAN for aviation now?).

The old timers here will keep the wise newbie in check. Allowing the migration toward valuable new technology, while insisting on the development and maintenance of basic important pilot skills. CAT, CCS, and few other with the life sustaining wisdom for pilots do not suffer fools - at all. Why should they? Those who wish to advance from new in aviation must learn to not be fools, and begin to have a footing in the long term of aviation, rather than a flash in the pan, and a smoking hole, because they were too "well trained", proud, or simply foolish to listen.

[GyvAir]

I used to have a turntable (yes, I'm old enough to have owned such a device.. and not when it became retro-cool to own one) that had a button on it which when pressed, would cause the arm lift momentarily and move the needle exactly one groove to the left. Wonderful feature! AvCanada should have one.

[BobBates]

I used to have a turntable (yes, I'm old enough to have owned such a device.. and not when it became retro-cool to own one) that had a button on it which when pressed, would cause the arm lift momentarily and move the needle exactly one groove to the left. Wonderful feature! AvCanada should have one.

I don't like any move to the "left"; Although I do live on the "left coast"
Bob

[All Sides]

For the record, most people did not have issues with Catdrivers & Doc's messages, it was their delivery.
Nobody likes to be belittled for their opinions, that goes for low and high time drivers. Their comments quit often were intended to berate other pilots, to bolster their own self esteem. For the record I had a turntable too. No pun intended.

[Colonel Sanders]

Once they stopped keeping score in soccer games, it was all over.

It's good to know that you can only learn from nice people.

People that aren't nice, don't know anything, so you don't need to learn from them.

[Cat Driver]

Hey Colonel isn't it weird how all these people who claim to tune us out and quit reading our posts are the first to jump in and make disparaging comments about our characters?

Fortunately they for the most part are anonymous therefore not really all that important in the grand scheme of life.

[Tom H]

I've been avoiding commenting on this thread but...

I am not a professional pilot, matter of fact I don't have medical at the moment.

When I have been able to fly over the last 20years its been light aircraft and small open cockpit bi planes.

But I had the great fortune of growing up in an aviation family, father flew from 1939 to 1968 (eyes deteriorated) and 37,000 hours, and his colleagues and friends (some of them famous or very well known).

I learned a ton (some of it has kept me alive) from them simply by being interested and polite, even as a pre teen kid. Was never treated anything but well and they took a ton of time with this snot nosed kid.

But when someone demanded an answer to a foolish question or did something stupid and tried to justify it in any fashion they were brutal. BTW that includes me when I stepped out of line.

Today I run a museum and guess what I deal with a ton of the old guard. Engineers, fitters, avionics specialists and pilots. Some as young as 50 and some as old as 80s/90s.

Guess what...that old guard that seems to get so much criticism here still takes the time to answer questions from even little kids (well before pre teen), pre teens, teens and young people in general.

When asked in an interested, polite way and they do a heck of a job even with the silliest questions from the really young and unknowledgeable. It's amazing to see these grizzled veterans take the time, make the effort and spend the time with 6-8-10 year old kids and answer some of the strangest little kid questions. They do the same with young people and unknowing adults of all ages, when people are: interested and polite.

But act like a know it all expert and be rude or demand an answer to a foolish question or try to justify something stupid or dangerous and they can be brutal (very rare). Push it far enough...rude.

In my life around aviation I haven't seen the old guard change much at all (thank you), but there has sure been a change in many of the new generation (but not all there are some great ones, thank you).

My last experience at a flight school with a young instructor was after I sold my light tail dragger, I wanted to get checked out to be able to rent (I am not going to say where). I was current, had a couple hundred hours, 50 current hours on tail dragger.

I was treated poorly (in spite of being cooperative and polite), treated as unknowledgeable, unknowing of even the basics, condescendingly and poor customer service across the board.

Since then I've met many, upper income professionals who are very interested in aviaiton and were (at one time or another)learning to fly and quit for the same reasons.

Never heard that stuff, on a regular basis, 20-30 years ago.

So tell me what's changed?

Meantime...Cat, Colonel take the time to hang around,drag a few others like you over, I appreciate it and so do others.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[Rookie50]

My $0.02.

For the teachers, a teaching type delivery will simply perhaps enhance your mentoring aims, and a larger audience of inexperienced pilots will gather needed knowledge from your decades of wisdom.

As a relatively newbie and low time pilot, I sincerely appreciate the wisdom and common sense you have to share. Just a thought -- not all of us are fools by intention, just inexperienced and we need your mentoring. I, consider myself a permanent student. Learning will never end.

Anyway regardless of delivery, I personally am not offended and will continue to glean knowledge, sifting through the color as required, from a number of mentors I have. I see the genuine desire to teach and mentor here -- so continue.

Us low timers are listening.

[Tom H]

My $0.02.

For the teachers, a teaching type delivery will simply perhaps enhance your mentoring aims, and a larger audience of inexperienced pilots will gather needed knowledge from your decades of wisdom.

As a relatively newbie and low time pilot, I sincerely appreciate the wisdom and common sense you have to share. Just a thought -- not all of us are fools by intention, just inexperienced and we need your mentoring. I, consider myself a permanent student. Learning will never end.

Anyway regardless of delivery, I personally am not offended and will continue to glean knowledge, sifting through the color as required, from a number of mentors I have. I see the genuine desire to teach and mentor here -- so continue.

Us low timers are listening.

Rookie 50 thanks for proving my point!

The "Old Guard" does more than is appreciated.

Tom H

[Rookie50]

My $0.02.

For the teachers, a teaching type delivery will simply perhaps enhance your mentoring aims, and a larger audience of inexperienced pilots will gather needed knowledge from your decades of wisdom.

As a relatively newbie and low time pilot, I sincerely appreciate the wisdom and common sense you have to share. Just a thought -- not all of us are fools by intention, just inexperienced and we need your mentoring. I, consider myself a permanent student. Learning will never end.

Anyway regardless of delivery, I personally am not offended and will continue to glean knowledge, sifting through the color as required, from a number of mentors I have. I see the genuine desire to teach and mentor here -- so continue.

Us low timers are listening.

Rookie 50 thanks for proving my point!

The "Old Guard" does more than is appreciated.

Tom H

Tom,

Some of them should collaborate and write a book.

I'm quite serious. I'd buy it, too. From my bugs eye perch -- I worry about the deterioration in basic aircraft handling and airmanship -- that perhaps the wonderful glass automation tools have contributed to.

One day there may be few old school teachers left.

[Tom H]

My $0.02.

For the teachers, a teaching type delivery will simply perhaps enhance your mentoring aims, and a larger audience of inexperienced pilots will gather needed knowledge from your decades of wisdom.

As a relatively newbie and low time pilot, I sincerely appreciate the wisdom and common sense you have to share. Just a thought -- not all of us are fools by intention, just inexperienced and we need your mentoring. I, consider myself a permanent student. Learning will never end.

Anyway regardless of delivery, I personally am not offended and will continue to glean knowledge, sifting through the color as required, from a number of mentors I have. I see the genuine desire to teach and mentor here -- so continue.

Us low timers are listening.

Rookie 50 thanks for proving my point!

The "Old Guard" does more than is appreciated.

Tom H

Tom,

Some of them should collaborate and write a book.

I'm quite serious. I'd buy it, too. From my bugs eye perch -- I worry about the deterioration in basic aircraft handling and airmanship -- that perhaps the wonderful glass automation tools have contributed to.

One day there may be few old school teachers left.

Agreed

A new version of "Stick and Rudder" on basic airmanship and technique (along with some colourful stories) would go a long way to boosting skills and interest in aviation.

Tom H

[MartinB]

As a person who will begin flight training in September (technically January) at a puppy mill situated where Lake Superior and Huron meet, I really do value the knowledge that I've gained from the old timers on this forum like cat when he used to post more, colonel, and many others. I also enjoy the way in which said knowledge is delivered on this forum. It is entertaining sometimes. I have learned a crap ton from them and even more when I look past the personal attacks. :p And speaking of which, before I get fired upon for contradicting what I just said, I would much rather go to a regular flying school and learn a trade on the side, but I can't pass up an opportunity to get free flight training at a college. I see tons of posts here saying debt is horrible, which it is, so I'm avoiding it by going to the Sault where I only pay tuition.

Anyways, there's all of this talk on this thread labelling every young pilot as ignorant fools who are all self centred, unwilling to learn unless knowledge is delivered in a candy coated way, and who believe in instant gratification. I thought I'd just give some pilots here a little hope that at least one youngster is willing to learn from anybody willing to pass down knowledge. I want to learn because pretty soon I'll be flying up north where I'll be able to put everything I've learned here to use (including lowering the gear...if there's any retractable gear planes in the bush). Heck I've even learned the best ways to go on a road trip on this forum. Also, when I do begin flight training, I'll definately focus a lot of attention on how to navigate using VOR's and NDB's before I even begin to figure out the gps. When I go fly a bush, the impression I'm getting is that I'd be a spoiled little best if I had a gps installed on my plane so for situational awareness and staying alive, I'll make sure I'm more than proficient navigating the "old" way. GPS's aren't fun anyways... Save that for when you become a flying computer programmer for the Big Red!

The last thing I want to do is insult and push away the pilots feeding me with knowledge that could save my life.

Cheers,
Martin

[Rookie50]

As a person who will begin flight training in September (technically January) at a puppy mill situated where Lake Superior and Huron meet, I really do value the knowledge that I've gained from the old timers on this forum like cat when he used to post more, colonel, and many others. I also enjoy the way in which said knowledge is delivered on this forum. It is entertaining sometimes. I have learned a crap ton from them and even more when I look past the personal attacks. :p And speaking of which, before I get fired upon for contradicting what I just said, I would much rather go to a regular flying school and learn a trade on the side, but I can't pass up an opportunity to get free flight training at a college. I see tons of posts here saying debt is horrible, which it is, so I'm avoiding it by going to the Sault where I only pay tuition.

Anyways, there's all of this talk on this thread labelling every young pilot as ignorant fools who are all self centred, unwilling to learn unless knowledge is delivered in a candy coated way, and who believe in instant gratification. I thought I'd just give some pilots here a little hope that at least one youngster is willing to learn from anybody willing to pass down knowledge. I want to learn because pretty soon I'll be flying up north where I'll be able to put everything I've learned here to use (including lowering the gear...if there's any retractable gear planes in the bush). Heck I've even learned the best ways to go on a road trip on this forum. Also, when I do begin flight training, I'll definately focus a lot of attention on how to navigate using VOR's and NDB's before I even begin to figure out the gps. When I go fly a bush, the impression I'm getting is that I'd be a spoiled little best if I had a gps installed on my plane so for situational awareness and staying alive, I'll make sure I'm more than proficient navigating the "old" way. GPS's aren't fun anyways... Save that for when you become a flying computer programmer for the Big Red!

The last thing I want to do is insult and push away the pilots feeding me with knowledge that could save my life.

Cheers,
Martin

Martin, my instructor -- I had a fairly decent ppl IP -- used to say the dangerous period is from 1-300 hrs, because at that point somewhere you think you know something. Remember that. I now have 600tt, cpl and Ifr, and I know nothing. Well, almost nothing.

I'm happy with my most recent flight, because of my decisions that continue to be cautious and conservative. I returned Ifr from the US, and had to deviate substantially due to some pretty nasty, multiple thunderstorm cells. Even though I have NEXRAD, I chose the most conservative routing, And asked Atc for their radar picture to back up my decisions. This then required an unforecast fuel stop, because I would have had a few minutes less than my reserve rules on arrival.

It's tempting to take chances. I'm happy I don't, because I've had good mentors.

Those conservative decision making were modelled by mentors.....

[MartinB]

Martin, my instructor -- I had a fairly decent ppl IP -- used to say the dangerous period is from 1-300 hrs, because at that point somewhere you think you know something. Remember that. I now have 600tt, cpl and Ifr, and I know nothing. Well, almost nothing.

I'm happy with my most recent flight, because of my decisions that continue to be cautious and conservative. I returned Ifr from the US, and had to deviate substantially due to some pretty nasty, multiple thunderstorm cells. Even though I have NEXRAD, I chose the most conservative routing, And asked Atc for their radar picture to back up my decisions. This then required an unforecast fuel stop, because I would have had a few minutes less than my reserve rules on arrival.

It's tempting to take chances. I'm happy I don't, because I've had good mentors.

Those conservative decision making were modelled by mentors.....

Thanks for the advice I'll remember it.

[PilotDAR]

A new version of "Stick and Rudder" on basic airmanship and technique (along with some colourful stories) would go a long way to boosting skills and interest in aviation.

Tom and Rookie,

The theme is good, but this is where the "boosting/mentoring" can break down. Some skills in piloting are nothing other than hands on. Sure, you can brief it well, but until you got out and did it a few times, you did not finish the learning. That valuable book can prime the student, but it cannot contain what it takes to finish the hands on skills stuff.

Getting an old timer right seat with you for the inspiration and mentoring is the best, if they'll go. Decades ago, as a fairly new pilot, and probing the nuances of how a DHC-2 Beaver flew, I was wrongly lured into a belief about a handling flaw rumored to exist. I was directed to ask Russ Bannock. Russ honoured me not only with an absolutely authoritative answer, but a 20 minute flight in his Beaver to demonstrate it. Was I ever lucky for that!

We need the old guys, if not to fly with the newbies, at least to steer them back onto the the straight and narrow of the right way to actually fly a plane. In terms of stick and rudder, there's not much new in the last half century, so it figures that the pilots who have survived from longer than that have some clues.

The newbies, after getting over having their feelings hurt, best remind themselves that the old pilots posting here, and elsewhere, are giving this wisdom away. It is worth a whole lot more than you're paying for it!

Perhaps it's time for a bedtime fable:

The group of young nomads were walking a great distance. The leader said to them, "as you walk along, pick up and carry as many stones as your can, and carry them to our destination". The stones were heavy, and even the thought of the effort dissuaded many for the effort, so they only picked up a few, if any. Others followed the advice, and toiled carrying the stones to the destination. Upon reaching the destination days later, those carrying the stone they had picked up, found that they had turned to diamonds. Some had great wealth, others were poor, for lack of effort.

The wisdom of piloting can be obtained but a combination of effort, but not none. Some, have flown for a half century, and simply earned it (and perhaps now share it). Others have gleaned some from every source possible, including here, sometimes enduring barbs and jabs along the way. Others are still wondering how to obtain that wisdom.

I have gone out of my way to travel to, or to invite AvCanada and PPRuNe members, to fly together. Both to share and to learn. But, those whiners, who write with a tone of how their new pilot bars might confer upon them the privilege of instant respect, or are unwilling to take the advice of the old timers, seem to receive much less of my mentoring interest.

Cat and I, CS and I, BPF and I, and a few notable PPRuNers have had several chats about our mutual disdain for this feigned "trained in" experience, in place of getting out there and simply flying the plane well. I am the better person for those chats...

[Shiny Side Up]

Anyways, there's all of this talk on this thread labelling every young pilot as ignorant fools who are all self centred, unwilling to learn unless knowledge is delivered in a candy coated way, and who believe in instant gratification.

I suspect that the world has always been this way. I had always found it amusing when my grandfather in his eighties treated my father and uncles who were in their fifties and sixties this way until he died. They were always the boys...

Either way it will be something you can expect to battle against until the end of your aviation trajectory. I find that the cognitive dissonance that it causes to people engaged in aviation is often distressing to them and disappointing to myself. Its impossible in the minds of most to be young and a good pilot, or be old and a bad pilot. This plays out in funny ways, or not so funny ways, depending on your point of view. For me, I can grow my beard out which has a lot of grey and suddenly increase my perceived experience level seemingly tenfold sometimes.

The world is a strange place.

[Rookie50]

It is an apprenticeship, or it should be.

The pilots who scare me are the ones who believe that doesn't apply to them. Who believe the cirrus advertising and go out and buy a SR22 turbo at 100 hrs TT, because they can, and fly it anywhere and in any weather. Just seems like roulette without a long period of supervision.

[Liquid Charlie]

and i'm still flying a dc3 - lmfaooooooooo

[Illya Kuryakin]

and i'm still flying a dc3 - lmfaooooooooo

Because you just never grew up, old friend.
Illya

[Tom H]

PilotDAR

The theme is good, but this is where the "boosting/mentoring" can break down. Some skills in piloting are nothing other than hands on. Sure, you can brief it well, but until you got out and did it a few times, you did not finish the learning. That valuable book can prime the student, but it cannot contain what it takes to finish the hands on skills stuff.

Absolutely agree! But the book would be a great tool to get you ready to get in the air and remind you of the skills needed. Not a replacement for a good instructor.

Getting an old timer right seat with you for the inspiration and mentoring is the best, if they'll go. Decades ago, as a fairly new pilot, and probing the nuances of how a DHC-2 Beaver flew, I was wrongly lured into a belief about a handling flaw rumored to exist. I was directed to ask Russ Bannock. Russ honoured me not only with an absolutely authoritative answer, but a 20 minute flight in his Beaver to demonstrate it. Was I ever lucky for that!

Absolutely agree again and like the way you demonstrated the point.

When I learned to fly it was the "Old Guard" for the most part instructing (just dated myself dammit) in semi retirement and between them and my fathers naggin and sage advice I have managed to remian a "safe" pilot for most of my life.

Need some of the "Old Guys" to become semi retired and get back to doing some instructing. Besides the skills, knowledge and experience they would bring they always had a handle on "customer service" and how to treat the person paying the bill.

We need the old guys, if not to fly with the newbies, at least to steer them back onto the the straight and narrow of the right way to actually fly a plane. In terms of stick and rudder, there's not much new in the last half century, so it figures that the pilots who have survived from longer than that have some clues.

I agree for the most part, but if there is nothing new in stick and rudder why is it so many destroy aircraft and hurt of kill themselves (and others) making the same mistakes (stall spin at low altitude comes to mind along with running out of fuel). That is where some hard hitting comments delivered harshly (like I got a few times) may have saved a lot of pain, suffering and financial loss.

The newbies, after getting over having their feelings hurt, best remind themselves that the old pilots posting here, and elsewhere, are giving this wisdom away. It is worth a whole lot more than you're paying for it!

Exactly...in another life I raced cars and when I asked a much older driver how he continued to win when I had superior technical knowledge, training and faster reactions he calmly explained that his experience meant he didn't make mistakes that needed my superior, knowledge, training and fast reactions to be fast and win.

A lot to be said for that.

Appreciate the story but...

Cat and I, CS and I, BPF and I, and a few notable PPRuNers have had several chats about our mutual disdain for this feigned "trained in" experience, in place of getting out there and simply flying the plane well. I am the better person for those chats...

The above comment hits the target in more than just flying.

Thanks

In my highly biased personal opinion