Petition To Save The Mars.

[CLguy]

Canuck you are correct you could have a couple in every community. I won't dispute that, in fact I have suggested that in the past but no one in our fire organization seems to be interested in that concept. Imagine the logistics with trying to get pilots and engineers based in the northern communities for a 6 month contract. They could paint "Empress of Sandy Lake" or Empress of Wunnimum" on the side of them. Of course I would gladly take Fort Frances!

Just to clarify a couple of things, the CL-415 drops 1350 imp gallons and the FireBoss drops a max of 600 imp gal. When a FireBoss arrives at a fire they are only dropping in the neighbourhood of 300 gal and only get to dropping full loads in the last 45 min or so on the fire once their fuel load gets burned down. The 415 sometimes runs into the same problem and has to download a couple hundred gallons. What I meant with bigger was bigger load and yes the 415 is more manoeuvrable. A fully loaded FireBoss is a bit of a handful. This comes from people who have time on both the CL's and the FireBosses. When you are dealing with fire, time is everything. The faster you are there putting water on the fire decides how many aircraft and for how long they are committed.

Other than the initial cost how can one believe the cost of operating 6, 8 or 9 FireBosses would be cheaper. With 9 aircraft you now have 9 pilots, ? Engineers, parts and equipment for 9 airplanes.

I'm certainly not defending the price but I guess one could talk with Newfoundland who after evaluating the FireBoss elected to buy 415's. All I know is when my property is being threatened by fire, I want the best coming to save me and not the cheaper one who has afforded the operator the best profit margin.

[Liquid Charlie]

Seems this is not about a classic aircraft but loss of a fire contract -- a classic aircraft that belongs on the air show circuit -- simple as that -- lets bring back DC-6/7 -- piston otters and maybe even the aircruiser as well -- oh ya add the 215 to that -- now we can get right back to popping jugs and catching on fire -- -- lmfaoooooooooo

[Cat Driver]

This subject is quite complex, however if you have skilled fire suppression pilots flying the machines who can accurately deliver the load then CLguy is closest to the optimum aircraft.

[Meatservo]

Let's say you are cooking on the stove, and the doorbell rings. Once you are done trying to get the latter-day-saints to go away, you get back upstairs to discover that you have a classic "pot-on-the-stove" fire. On the counter you see a large juice tumbler and also nine shot-glasses. Would it be better to fill up the tumbler with water from the sink and dump it on the flaming soufflé, or would it be better to call your wife over, and get her to fill the shot glasses while you pour them one-at-a-time onto the fire?

Depends on the size of the casserole, and how long it's been burning, I guess.

[iflyforpie]

Let's say you are cooking on the stove, and the doorbell rings. Once you are done trying to get the latter-day-saints to go away, you get back upstairs to discover that you have a classic "pot-on-the-stove" fire. On the counter you see a large juice tumbler and also nine shot-glasses. Would it be better to fill up the tumbler with water from the sink and dump it on the flaming soufflé, or would it be better to call your wife over, and get her to fill the shot glasses while you pour them one-at-a-time onto the fire?

Depends on the size of the casserole, and how long it's been burning, I guess.

Wrong on both counts. You get the baking soda.... or the ABC fire extinguisher you should have in your kitchen. Water is the last thing you throw on a kitchen fire.

As others said, tankers and bombers buy you time.... that's it... they don't put out fires. None can hold a candle to a good ground crew making a fire guard, back burning, and mopping up.

[Meatservo]

That's right! I asked the rhetorical question about shot-glasses vs. tumblers to trick you! In reality you grab the pot, run with it to the balcony and hurl it into the driveway.

[Dibbley]

As others said, tankers and bombers buy you time.... that's it... they don't put out fires. None can hold a candle to a good ground crew making a fire guard, back burning, and mopping up.

I don't agree with you. I fought many fires as ground crew on V.I. - with the Mars doing the heavy support. We would piss around with pumps, mattocks, & chain saws for hours. As soon as we left the area, the hot spots would show up and we'd be back in there again. The helicopters with bambi buckets weren't much better. The heavy drop by the Mars would generally break through the canopy, bring down burning snags and burrow down into the ground. It was a treat to watch from the side lines, when they would call us out of the way to watch them make their passes. There wasn't much left to do afterwards but move on to a new area.

I would put my money on the Cl's being a more effective machine over that Fireboss. You can't beat the powerplant for serviceability (I've worked on them for many years) and the load is of a decent size to do anything. I hope Bombardier starts selling more of these to provincial governments.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I don't agree with you. I fought many fires as ground crew on V.I. - with the Mars doing the heavy support. .

"on VI "(Vancouver Island) is the most important part of your post. I don't think anybody will dispute the effectiveness of the MAR's working a near sea level Coastal forest fire with water right there.

The mistake most people make is to think that that effectiveness automatically translates to the rest of BC. The fact is that as soon as you get hot and high the performance goes away fast and supporting the airplane away from Sprout lake is a huge and expensive undertaking. The MAR's is a very expensive 70 year old one trick pony. It's day has come and gone and no amount of Coulson spin will change that........

As for the Cl 415 vs Fireboss debate, well money makes the operation go round. It doesn't matter how good the Cl 415 is, and it is a very good airplane, it is just so expensive that it has marginalized itself in the scooper market place. If it were a third the price there would not be one Fireboss in Canada.

There is a ton of piston Cl 215's out there going cheap. What the industry needs is a sensible turbinizing program for the airframe, not new gold plated, stupidly expensive Cl 415's .

[Just another canuck]

Thanks for clearing that up for me CLguy. I appreciate it. I think the numbers I read about what each aircraft scoops may have been from the Fireboss website.

Anyway, I suppose they each play their role and I'll leave it to the experts to decide what is needed.

[Just another canuck]

Friend of mine posted this on Facebook. Can't argue the facts I suppose.

http://www.newsroom.gov.bc.ca/ministrie ... -mars.html

[iflyforpie]

Pretty much said what I said.

It's important to note that aircraft do not put out wildfires, ground crews do.

Of course, my original source for that info was the former CP of Airspray..... .....plus working with BCFS since my almost literal bath of fire in '03 out of Penticton.

[Dibbley]

I am in complete agreement that the Mars days are done - I came to that realization last year when I stopped by the base, looking for work. The feeling I got from remaining staff was that things were winding up. It had been a good run.

I just gave the Government website a read and it is quite detailed. Once again I have to disagree with the assertion that ground crews put out fires. I'd give more credit to the rains that come in the fall. Having worked on several V.I. fires, I still recall the difficulty of ground attack in difficult terrain - such as box canyons. To minimize the risk to our crews, the Mars was called in to make the response.

Anyone ever wonder why all those European countries that are suffering from fiscal meltdowns can afford such expensive hardware in the way of the 415? I bet their purchases are underwritten by our export development bank. It really is too bad that the feds can't see the advantage of creating a similar financial support for the provincial governments to keep our fire fighting aircraft purchases in house, so to speak. In the meantime, let's hope the season doesn't eclipse 2003.

[North Shore]

^ To be fair, many of those Euro countries bought their 415s years ago, before their financial crises. That being said, I'm sure that the EDB was involved..

[Meatservo]

Umm.. I didn't actually write any of the quotes attributed to me above. Edit your posts properly, please.

[CLguy]

People keep wanting to compare the purchase price between different tankers and yet most won't factor in the dollar savings associated with the price of saved timber limits, personal property, towns etc. Every CL-415 in our fleet has been bought and paid for many times over in the number of potential disasters they have prevented and the price it would have cost the taxpayers to suppress them. You only have to eliminate one fire that would have ended up costing $20 to $30 million to extinguish and the purchase price is covered.

Let's have a look at Slave Lake, Alberta. If that fire would have been stopped how much money would have been saved. We won't even get into the misery and anguish that the local people have been thru. Sitting on the ramp that day was a nice shiny fleet of new FireBosses. I'm sure everyone including the local taxpayers were quite happy and felt very well protected during the extreme hazard. They had no reason to feel any different cause they were told they were. A fire starts with extremely strong winds blowing. The FireBosses wouldn't take off because it was too windy nor would they scoop in Lesser Slave Lk cause it was too rough. We all know the outcome of that day. Would a fleet of CL-415's sitting there have prevented the disaster, no one will ever know. I do know the CL-415's would have been flying and scooping out of Lesser Slave and we do know the FireBoss showed it's limitations that day. Did the taxpayer save any money by having contracted a less expensive bomber? Just cause it's cheaper is no guarantee that you will save money.

[Pop n Fresh]

I don't know how anyone manages to get fire in a pot. I use a gas stove and still have not done that. Grease frying I suspect. If I do get a stovetop fire going in a pot/pan I will start by putting a lid on it and turning off the stove.

Umm.. I didn't actually write any of the quotes attributed to me above. Edit your posts properly, please.

They're probably excited you're back and want to pretend you're writing more than you actually are.

My guess on the Mars is only money will save it. I'm a little short on spare coins right now or I would possibly buy something a little smaller for personal use.

[angry inch]

Here's what the BC Forest Service has to say about it...

The Wildfire Management Branch continually works to ensure that the most appropriate equipment is available to protect B.C. communities from wildfire risks.
The Wildfire Management Branch typically responds to 2,000 fires every year across the province. In an average season, airtankers conduct over 600 missions.
It's important to note that aircraft do not put out wildfires, ground crews do.
Many airtankers can drop long-term fire retardant on a wildfire to slow its growth and allow ground crews to safely contain it.
The Martin Mars cannot drop long-term fire retardant, which is critical in B.C.'s terrain and firefighting conditions.
In spring 2014, the Province acquired the contracted services of four Air Tractor AT-802F "Fire Boss" amphibious airtankers that can drop water, foam or retardant on a fire. They can skim up to 3,025 litres of water in 15 seconds from over 1,700 water bodies in B.C. and land at airports, including the Province's 17 airtanker bases. This airtanker group also includes a Cessna Grand Caravan bird dog aircraft.
Because of its size, the Martin Mars can only land on and scoop up water from about 113 bodies of water in B.C.
From 2007 to 2013, the Martin Mars was only deployed on 20 wildfires, or about 0.5 per cent of the 3,476 airtanker missions flown during that period (at a cost of about $4.8 million).
When drawing a comparison between the Martin Mars and the Fire Bosses that worked the fires in Kelowna in 2003 and in West Kelowna in 2014 respectively, the Fire Bosses delivered more volume and were more cost-effective than the Martin Mars. On the Smith Creek fire (West Kelowna), the Province's Fire Boss group dropped 586,000 litres over 11.3 hours, at a cost of $0.19 per litre. In contrast, on the 2003 Kelowna fire, the Martin Mars dropped 690,000 litres over 28 hours at a cost of $0.63 per litre. The suppressant delivery rate for Fire Bosses in West Kelowna was twice that of the Martin Mars in Kelowna.
The Coulson Group, the company that operates the Martin Mars, did not respond to the Province's offer of an "as when needed" contract for the 2014 fire season.
Over the past six weeks, ‎the new Fire Boss aircraft have actioned more fires than the Martin Mars did in six years.
The Fire Boss is just one type of airtanker. Including these new aircraft, the Wildfire Management Branch has the following 31 aircraft available for fighting wildfires in B.C.: 16 airtankers, 8 bird dogs, 6 medium-lift helicopters and 1 light-lift helicopter on long-term contract.
The province can bring in additional contract helicopters as needed. Over 100 helicopters are currently helping to fight wildfires throughout B.C.
Depending on the level of wildfire activity in the province, the government may request assistance from other jurisdictions through the Mutual Aid Resources Sharing Agreement, which allows for the movement and sharing of firefighting resources (including aircraft) between B.C. and other provinces and territories.
Operations and technical capabilities:

The targeting accuracy of the Fire Boss allows firefighting crews to take a more aggressive approach to fighting a wildfire.
If one of the Fire Boss aircraft were to experience mechanical difficulties, the other three aircraft in the group would remain in service.
There is only one Martin Mars in B.C. The mechanical failure rate of the piston engines used by the Martin Mars is much greater than that of modern turbine engines.
Because of its relatively slow airspeed and large size, the Martin Mars is more difficult to integrate into B.C.'s firefighting operations, including close air support for firefighters on the ground.
The Martin Mars' large drop pattern can sometimes make it unsafe to use when providing close air support for ground crews. Firefighters on the ground have to stop work until drops are completed, which may increase the risk of a fire escaping during the critical initial attack stage.
Although the Martin Mars has a tank capacity of 27,250 litres, the average drop volume is 19,000 litres with an average turnaround time of 19 minutes. The average turnaround time for the Fire Bosses is seven minutes.
The provincial aircraft fleet must be repositioned constantly during the fire season to be ready for anticipated fire starts in high-risk regions. This strategic prepositioning reduces firefighting costs overall.
The ability to reposition the Martin Mars is limited due to its limited airspeed, its need to land on larger bodies of water, its inability to land at airports and its refuelling requirements when it's working away from its primary base at Sproat Lake.
Repositioning the Martin Mars is more challenging than repositioning smaller aircraft because of the significant logistical support that it requires.
The Wildfire Management Branch has the option to split up the Fire Boss group and attack multiple targets at once. This is especially valuable when fighting a series of fires sparked by intense lighting storms.
The new Fire Boss aircraft are versatile, efficient and effective in suppressing B.C.'s wildfires. As of July 21, the Fire Bosses had flown 230 hours suppressing fires in B.C., dropping more than two million litres of suppressant on wildfires.
Costs:

The Province does not own any fixed wing aircraft or helicopters. The four new Fire Bosses are operated by Conair Group of Abbotsford for $2.5 million per fire season, plus an hourly flying rate. This contract provides for the use of all four airtankers and a bird dog aircraft for 100 days per fire season.
In 2013, when the Wildfire Management Branch last used the Martin Mars, the season rate was $672,300 with a flying time cost of $4,000 per hour for the first 45 hours and $18,800 per hour for any additional hours. This rate does not include fuel.
The hourly operating rate (including fuel) for all four Fire Bosses combined is $2,000 per hour less than that of the single Martin Mars. This cost difference becomes a $17,000-per-hour disparity if the Martin Mars was flown over 45 hours per year.
The "cost per litre delivered" on the West Kelowna by the Fire Boss in July averaged $0.19 per litre. In 2003, the Martin Mars cost per litre on the Kelowna fire was $0.63 per litre. The historic average cost per litre for the Martin Mars is $0.48 per litre.
The cost of fuel per hour for all four Fire Bosses combined is less than half the cost of fuel per hour for the single Martin Mars.
The cost of repositioning four new Fire Bosses combined is about $1,200 per day. The cost to reposition the Mars was about $12,000 per day, or 10 times that amount.
The Martin Mars' operational limitations make it difficult to sell surplus availability of this aircraft through mutual aid agreements. In contrast, the Fire Boss aircraft have already been in demand for deployment outside of B.C. earlier this season when they were not needed here. The Fire Bosses were deployed to the Northwest Territories earlier this summer, which recovered $287,000 for the Province.
Media Contact:

Media Relations
Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations
250 356-5261

[182-SS]

Its the large amount of water dropped that makes the big difference between the mars and all others. The large amount of water doesn't evaporate, it reaches the ground (and in a large area) and that's what is necessary to help knock back a fire.
As far as I can see it most of the comments are right. There is a place for all of these birds and they all work very well in their place.

As for me... I would slap some PW-100/150 's on the Mars and get back to work. The old girls would be a real force to be reckoned with if you went from the 2500/3000HP of the current radials up to 4000 or 5000 HP. another 8000HP may change its performance a little bit

As for the cost.....how much $ is lost in lumber every year? How much money is spend fighting every year?

Christ with this "Global Warming" they should get the old plans and start building new ones with big power, It would appear there would be a market around the world for them.

[Dibbley]

There was a plan to re-engine them many years ago. Putting on four PW150's might tear the wings right off the old girl.... How about some nice PW127's instead? It might be a bit of a bugger to set-up the autofeather and power uptrim systems. I'll go work on her for free if they do it.

[iflyforpie]

I'd give more credit to the rains that come in the fall. Having worked on several V.I. fires, I still recall the difficulty of ground attack in difficult terrain - such as box canyons. To minimize the risk to our crews, the Mars was called in to make the response.

Well.... yes..... much like antibodies don't actually kill viruses, they simply make them unable to perform their function. But again, aircraft are even less capable than ground crews at putting out fires.

Yes, it might be able to smother some smoldering Rank 1 in the middle of nowhere and no further action will be required..... but you will never see a Rank 3 or higher interface fire actioned by a Mars and nothing else and have a successful outcome.

As for the cost.....how much $ is lost in lumber every year? How much money is spend fighting every year?

Well..... that's the thing. Planes like the Mars were supported by timber companies to protect timber values. But the game has changed over the years, some for the better, some for the worst.

First of all.... all the years of fire protection have left too high of fuel loads in the forest. What used to be smaller and cooler fires simply clearing the underbrush (and opening the pine cones for regen) have now become massively hot fires that lay waste to entire valleys for decades. Nature had it right--even for the logging companies..... Unless it is an interface fire, it should be left to do its thing.

Second, SALVAGE!! Get a nice continuous crown fire... all the wood is still good. Logging companies go hell for leather snapping up all that salvage timber that would have taken forever to get a lease for.