Nav Canada Service Charges

[timel]

Exactly...that is why you are getting screwed by your government.

Therefore you will get what you are content to accept.




No one is forcing you to work for crappy wages, thankfully I realized the only way to make good money was to work outside of Canada and I have retired in relative comfort.

You are stuck like me in that system. You can't control and change it. Health system I agree, but for how long does the government and population has known how messed up it is? Nobody has the guts to change it.

And it won't because people get upset when things get shaken and a wrecked government is good for private corporations. Harper the pro-cutting-in-the-fat-of-government-expenses is taking your pension money you worked probably hard to get.
Enough fooling around...


Decent Wages, yes you can choose not to be a pilot...But you have to go through your first steps in order to get yourself a decent pay. I'm not rejecting the expats options but I would rather work to improve things in my country.

[AirFrame]

So I may have reacted strong but most of us try our best to offer a high level of service in often less than ideal conditions. I am truly sorry sometimes you are penalized for this.

I could accept that if it weren't for first-hand observation. Crossing the water between the lower mainland and Vancouver Island, you will regularly hear GA aircraft request altitudes above 2500' for crossing. You will regularly hear them declined, as "Terminal Class C Airspace is Restricted". After that, you will hear one of two things: Dead silence on the frequency for the next hour, and/or the occasional call from a commercial aircraft wanting to climb higher than 2500' (or more commonly, being handed off from somewhere lower and heading somewhere higher).

If they're "so busy they can't give good service" to GA aircraft, why can they find time to watch a twin otter or dash-8?

[ahramin]

Airframe, you need to realize that terminal is the most difficult specialty at YVR CTR, has the highest failure rate, the lowest staffing levels, and the same pay as all the other specialties. There is no incentive for anyone to work that seat. So if there are high levels of traffic, or someone calls in sick, it's one controller working way too much airspace. That controller is very busy, but not on the VFR frequency.

[AirFrame]

Airframe, you need to realize that terminal is the most difficult specialty at YVR CTR, has the highest failure rate, the lowest staffing levels, and the same pay as all the other specialties. There is no incentive for anyone to work that seat. So if there are high levels of traffic, or someone calls in sick, it's one controller working way too much airspace. That controller is very busy, but not on the VFR frequency.

What makes it a "VFR frequency"? We all use the same frequencies. The controllers *do* find the time to talk to the Dash-8's and Twin Otters on the same terminal frequency I monitor as I motor along below Class C airspace unable to glide to land in the event of an engine failure.

I don't doubt that they've got more than one frequency to monitor, but that doesn't give them the right to refuse service to one segment of the flying population while supporting another.

[Colonel Sanders]

In Canada, IFR has a higher priority than VFR.

Everyone knows that.

[CpnCrunch]

Class C has been restricted practically every day this summer (including today). Even Victoria is getting in on the act today, although that's unusual - it's normally just Vancouver.

The problem is clearly a combination of too much controlled airspace and low staffing. A simple solution would be to just change all the class C terminal airspace into class E. Comox seems to have airspace that is just as busy and it works perfectly well as class E. Any time you actually enter class C (on the unusual occasion that they don't tell you to f*&# off) or look at the IFR traffic on flightradar24, it's not particular congested. Another option might be to split up the Vancouver airspace into more zones to reduce the load on each controller.

I can't imagine the IFR traffic is too happy either having to get flow times into Vancouver. It's probably not an issue on an 8 hour flight, but probably more of a pain when you have to get a timeslot 30 mins in advance for a 15 min flight.

[ahramin]

It is a VFR frequency. What you may be hearing is a repeater circuit of the other frequencies the controller is working. Stops everyone from talking at the same time because they don't hear each other.

[TA/RA]

There are IFR frequencies and VFR frequencies in the terminal. If everything is combined up then you will hear what is going on on all the frequencies but if a VFR only ATC position is open you will only hear the traffic on the VFR frequency. Even with the class C restricted you should never be forced down to cross the water at 2500' or below. There will always be options they include:

1. Accept a different routing from ATC that allows for the higher altitude. ie. South of Active Pass if Gabriola to Gower isn't possible.
2. If the controller can't take you right then and there orbit in your position or remain clear of the class c and they will take you as soon as they can.

Nobody will ever force you to cross the straight at 2500' but sometimes you may incur delays to get higher. Airlines get holds, delays and ground stops as well.

Also, have a look at the NOTAMS. They usually say something about reduced system capacity and class c restriction blah blah blah.... This doesn't mean that you will be 100% refused service it simply means that there may be a delay until service can be provided. Even if it is restricted, the controllers will often take VFRs as long as workload permits. If the for the most part a little bit of flexibility on the pilots part and the controllers part goes a long way.

my 2 cents.

[16SidedOffice]

From what I know nav canada is a private non lucrative company. It has nothing to do with government.

taxes paid for " A L L " aviation services including writing exams and all aviation check rides and new license rides.

Still has nothing to do with NavCanada.. Everything you're referring to is Transport Canada. They are the regulator.

[photofly]

Transport Canada was navigation and ATC as well, a while ago. I think that was .'s point: it was all included. Don't let the whole NavCanada spinoff thing fool you: it's still another form of taxation.

but if a VFR only ATC position is open you will only hear the traffic on the VFR frequency.

If a VFR-only position is open, the VFR-only frequency is silent, and VFR traffic is refused service, then it doesn't speak well for the ability of the VFR-only controller for whom that VFR-only frequency was opened up, does it?

[Big Pistons Forever]

I would also add to TA/RA's post that you you sound on the radio does have an impact on the service you receive.

So if you were working terminal and things are busy and you here this as your initial call

"UMMMM Vancouver terminal UmMMM I mean Victoria terminal Cessna 172 UMMMMM Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie is UMMMMMMMM, UMMMMMMMM close to UMMMMMMMMM I think its Stuart Island UMMMMM and I want to go to Abbotsford at ummm I think I want to climb to 4500 UMMMMM oh no wait that is wrong direction UMMMMM better make it 5500 ummmmm click."

Would you really want to go out of your way to make the request happen ?

But

If everyone said

"Terminal 172 GABC"

you will get "Sqawk ident, say intentions"

push the ident button and reply with

"level 2500 request 5500 direct East point direct Abbotsford, ABC"

You are more likely to get

"Radar identified Climb 5500 cleared as requested"


I have plenty of beefs with NavCanada but the South Island and Lower Mainland is very busy airspace and so if you want to fly in it I don't think it is unreasonable that you don't use up the airwaves with cringe worthy calls. You want to be treated well then treat ATC with the same consideration

Finally using the radio is a skill like making a good crosswind landing. You can chose to learn how to do it right and then practice to maintain proficiency or just bumble along showing everyone what a mediocre pilot you are......

[photofly]

I love the idea of auditioning in front of ATC for a clearance.

[Cat Driver]

Still has nothing to do with NavCanada.. Everything you're referring to is Transport Canada. They are the regulator.

Help an old senile man out with this one.

In the era I was referring to the services of Navcanada was part of and provided by TC or its earlier description, M.O.T..

So if Navcanada has nothing to do with the way my money is spent for air traffic control services because they are a private company with no connections to the regulator then I do not have to comply with any Navcanada rules, directions nor any demand for money from them, correct?

Or does Navcanada own the airspace above all of Canada and I have to pay them to fly in it?

[Big Pistons Forever]

I love the idea of auditioning in front of ATC for a clearance.

Wow what a surprise the next post is from Photo and its only function is to to disagree with what I posted.

Well at least you are consistent.....

-The earth is an oblate spheroid-

[photofly]

I wasn't disagreeing - you're absolutely right, the more proficient you sound the more likely you are to get what you want. I was just suggesting one thinks of it as an audition, which is odd, but true.

[16SidedOffice]

In the era I was referring to the services of Navcanada was part of and provided by TC or its earlier description, M.O.T..

So if Navcanada has nothing to do with the way my money is spent for air traffic control services because they are a private company with no connections to the regulator then I do not have to comply with any Navcanada rules, directions nor any demand for money from them, correct?

Or does Navcanada own the airspace above all of Canada and I have to pay them to fly in it?

That era is long long gone, as it should be. Every taxpayer in Canada shouldn't have to pay for the services provided to every pilot. Your licensing and regulatory fees still goes to TC, and the NavCanada service charges goes towards the costs of providing and maintaining Air Traffic services.

CARS is from TC and that's where the rules come from. You can try not complying with CARS if you'd like but it's probably not in the best interest of your license.

[photofly]

Every taxpayer in Canada shouldn't have to pay for the services provided to every pilot.

I don't want to pay for highways in Kamloops or educational and child services in Timmins which I'm unlikely ever to use - and certainly don't use at the moment. Can those also be billed separately only to those people who use those services please? I don't see why I should pay for them.

[16SidedOffice]

Take it up with your MP.

[Cat Driver]

That era is long long gone, as it should be.

You mean when government actually spent our tax money providing services we were being screwed?

But you lucky people have the pleasure of supporting an ever expanding dysfunctional bureaucracy as well as paying taxes for services means todays generation is better off than we were?

Every taxpayer in Canada shouldn't have to pay for the services provided to every pilot.

Aviation is as important to the Canadian people as rail roads and highways are and yes every citizen should pay for it.

CARS is from TC and that's where the rules come from. You can try not complying with CARS if you'd like but it's probably not in the best interest of your license.

My Canadian license is about as useful to me as another a..hole would be.

CARS are a nightmare designed by lawyers.

Hey if you love the CARS have you ever tried getting several TC offices to interpret them for you?
.

[photofly]

Take it up with your MP.

IF he says no, can I please not pay for him either? Clearly he's no use to me.

[Old Dog Flying]

" Vancouver Terminal GABC Off Blunder Bay requesting Point Roberts DRCT Active Pass at 4500'?

GABC get off the frequency!"

" Victoria Terminal GABC off Blunder Bay request Point Roberts DRCT Active Pass at 4500"
"GABC Victoria Terminal unable 4500 maintain 2500 or below DRCT Active Pass and in the future go via East Point"

"Victoria ABC as PIC I deem 2500 to be unsafe"

"ABC climb to and maintain 4500 DRCT AP"

Yes it was a bright sunny warm summer day and how many had booked off SICK!

[AirFrame]

There are IFR frequencies and VFR frequencies in the terminal. If everything is combined up then you will hear what is going on on all the frequencies but if a VFR only ATC position is open you will only hear the traffic on the VFR frequency. Even with the class C restricted you should never be forced down to cross the water at 2500' or below.

So why do GA VFR pilots get denied (on the VFR frequency), then minutes later a commercial flight (which may or may not be VFR, but they're on the VFR frequency and flying a similar route) gets accepted? And there's *nothing* else on the frequency for the duration of the crossing (theirs or mine)?

There will always be options they include:
1. Accept a different routing from ATC that allows for the higher altitude. ie. South of Active Pass if Gabriola to Gower isn't possible.
2. If the controller can't take you right then and there orbit in your position or remain clear of the class c and they will take you as soon as they can.

True! But in the first case, you'll never on this earth hear YVR Terminal *offer* you that alternative... You have to know to ask for it. In the second case, that might work too, but personally i'm not happy wasting my gas money. Unlike a commercial flight, I don't have a revenue stream to pay for it.

[TA/RA]

So why do GA VFR pilots get denied (on the VFR frequency), then minutes later a commercial flight (which may or may not be VFR, but they're on the VFR frequency and flying a similar route) gets accepted? And there's *nothing* else on the frequency for the duration of the crossing (theirs or mine)?

The folks at NavCanada don't deny service for the sake of it. As I wrote in a previous post, "Restricted Class C" does not mean "Closed Class C" some flights both commercial and private are pre-coordinated. If you listen to the frequency long enough you will hear the commercial carriers such as Helijet and Harbour Air be forced down. Ask any one of their pilots.

So if you were working terminal and things are busy and you here this as your initial call

"UMMMM Vancouver terminal UmMMM I mean Victoria terminal Cessna 172 UMMMMM Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie is UMMMMMMMM, UMMMMMMMM close to UMMMMMMMMM I think its Stuart Island UMMMMM and I want to go to Abbotsford at ummm I think I want to climb to 4500 UMMMMM oh no wait that is wrong direction UMMMMM better make it 5500 ummmmm click."

Would you really want to go out of your way to make the request happen ?

But

If everyone said

"Terminal 172 GABC"

you will get "Sqawk ident, say intentions"

push the ident button and reply with

"level 2500 request 5500 direct East point direct Abbotsford, ABC"

You are more likely to get

"Radar identified Climb 5500 cleared as requested"


I have plenty of beefs with NavCanada but the South Island and Lower Mainland is very busy airspace and so if you want to fly in it I don't think it is unreasonable that you don't use up the airwaves with cringe worthy calls. You want to be treated well then treat ATC with the same consideration

I don't think it is about preferential treatment but given the 2 calls that you allude to above. The pilot in the first call is demonstrating that he has the potential of being very unfamiliar with radio procedures and the airspace and could require a lot of attention which is much better spent separating all the other aircraft in the airspace. The pilot of the second aircraft is demonstrating an ability to communicate in a clear concise manner, will follow instructions and won't be tying up the frequency.

True! But in the first case, you'll never on this earth hear YVR Terminal *offer* you that alternative... You have to know to ask for it. In the second case, that might work too, but personally i'm not happy wasting my gas money. Unlike a commercial flight, I don't have a revenue stream to pay for it.

Terminal can be surprisingly accommodating but it takes a little bit of give and take on both sides. While I feel for your gas money (I understand as I am a user of the airspace as well) It may also be advisable to check the NOTAMS prior to the flight. If there is a restriction there is a possibility that you may not get option A and you should be prepared with option B. Vancouver will often offer a second option but the onus is on the pilot to have a backup plan just like the controllers always have a plan B and C.

Another thing that goes a long way is clear concise communication and an understanding of the airspace.

1. "Terminal this is CGABC 4 north of Nanaimo at 2500 requesting 4500 to Gower if able"
vs.
2. "Terminal this is CGABC at 2500 climbing to 4500 we will be proceeding via Gower and Point Atkinson"

Option 1 demonstrates that you have done your preflight and are aware of the possible restriction and will be flexible in working with ATC
Option 2 demonstrates a lack of planning and a sense of entitlement to use the airspace and a general sense of expecting traffic to move around you.

Consider which check in would get more consideration as far as entering the restricted class C.

Last but not least,
The controllers don't like the restrictions any more than the pilots. With that said, it is at the discretion of the controller working at any particular point to allow or disallow VFR aircraft from entering the Class C. The traffic picture changes every few minutes so if you are denied on one leg of your trip there is a good chance you will be given a clearance on the return trip. It is nothing personal it is just how the system works and necessary to ensure a safe and efficient operation.
YJ & VR Terminal are required to provide service to allow aircraft to safely cross the straight. The only caveat is that it may not be on the most efficient route and may be subject to minor delays. It is all part of flying both privately and commercially. Budget accordingly.

[7ECA]

What it all comes down to is that pilots are paying an exorbitant fee to utilize NavCanada's services, and NavCanada is denying the use of airspace to pilots.

We are also expected to regularly purchase publications, like the CFS every 56 days, at $20 per, along with VTAs, VNCs, etc, also all $20 each. This quickly adds up, and needless to say NavCanada isn't hurting financially.

I'd say the solution would be to boycott the airspace for a while, and get the numbers well down, putting a pinch on NavCanada, but then again damn near every part of the Lower Mainland is either controlled, or controlled above 2500 feet...

I've only gone over to Vancouver Island twice since I started flying in 2011, and the terminal restrictions, and the general attitude of terminal controllers towards GA aircraft, are certainly contributing factors.

[TA/RA]

" Vancouver Terminal GABC Off Blunder Bay requesting Point Roberts DRCT Active Pass at 4500'?

GABC get off the frequency!"

" Victoria Terminal GABC off Blunder Bay request Point Roberts DRCT Active Pass at 4500"
"GABC Victoria Terminal unable 4500 maintain 2500 or below DRCT Active Pass and in the future go via East Point"

"Victoria ABC as PIC I deem 2500 to be unsafe"

"ABC climb to and maintain 4500 DRCT AP"

A perfect example of advocating for yourself in a non confrontational manner!