C-150 crash in Montreal

[Cat Driver]

When I flew in the north before the days of turbine powered airplanes runways were few and far between.

It was normal to land on whatever surface you could find that allowed you to land and take off.

Most of my off airport flying was in the DC 3 or the PBY, when the Twin Otter came on line life was far more simple because it was designed for off strip operations and very easy to fly.

The bottom line is airplanes are designed and certified for the average human to be able to safely operate them, you get in trouble when you exceed your own abilities.

[Cat Driver]

When will you be out here again PilotDAR?

I will be here until sometime in Dec.

[GyvAir]

GyvAir, I think your Instructor should have had you demonstrate a "go around" with full flap prior to going solo.

It's a long time ago and I honestly don't remember now. It's possible we had done a full flap go around but I hadn't absorbed the knowledge well enough for instant application. I can't believe that it wasn't at least discussed prior. Also, taking 220lbs out of the right seat of a 150 dramatically changes its manners. I do recall those few seconds after initiating the go around quite vividly though. It was alarming for a moment, but it really didn't feel extremely dangerous. It didn't strike me as an event that was likely to cause someone to crash, neither in the moment nor after. It seemed completely instinctive to just push the nose over so the plane kept flying, look down for a second to see what I was missing and correct it. Maybe I had a little more airspeed or a little less weight when I started back up than the girl in Montreal, keeping me clear of trouble?

[Illya Kuryakin]

Overshot should be considered as an emergency procedure itself as well as the sideslip to accelerate the descent.



Anyways my 2 cents.

Excuse me? Pardon? Seriously? Really? An overshoot and a side slip are an "emergency procedure".....on what planet??
Illya

[Colonel Sanders]

every landing I do will be flown full flaps

It has been my experience that there are
very few absolutes in aviation, or life for
that matter.

Flying a larger, heavier, faster aircraft, esp
landing without any extra runway to spare,
it's going to be full flap.

However, when you are flying a lighter, slower
aircraft with enormous runway to spare, a full
flap landing is rarely necessary, and as the
accident which spawned this thread shows,
does not pass a basic cost/benefit analysis.

Cessna saw fit to reduce full flap from 40 to
30 degrees when they brought out the newer
152 (vs 150), and similarly with the newer
vs older 172's.

Does Cessna not have a clue? Do they have
their heads up their asses because they think
40 flap is unnecessary?

If you assume for a moment that Cessna has
a clue, then perhaps 30 flap is appropriate for
both the 150 and older 172, as well.

In fact, there is an STC to reduce the flap on
the older 172's from 40 to 30, which ups the
max gross by 100 lbs if memory serves.

Is this an evil STC? Is it the spawn of the devil
because 40 flap is no longer available?

Probably not.

Thus we can conclude that 40 (full) flap is
probably not necessary in a 150 or older 172.

At least according to Cessna.

I might go with what Cessna says.

[timel]

Overshot should be considered as an emergency procedure itself as well as the sideslip to accelerate the descent.



Anyways my 2 cents.

Excuse me? Pardon? Seriously? Really? An overshoot and a side slip are an "emergency procedure".....on what planet??
Illya

Alright take a pill.
Forget the emergency term, it is not what I meant.

Sideslip should be made only on last resort on a too high approach, if you need to land ASAP or accelerate descent in flight on a short distance. People tend to use it everywhere.

Overshoot, all I meant is that it is not be taken lightly due to ground proximity, and it should be taught seriously but yes it is not an emergency, feel better?

[Colonel Sanders]

In a darkly humorous way, this thread is
very funny. It was spawned by a student
crashing because they tried to climb out
with full flaps.

According to various people here, it is
vitally important that students continue
to crash, climbing out with full flap, so
that they can touch down 1 mph slower.

This 1 mph reduction gives a bigger safety
improvement than not crashing in the
overshoot with full flaps, we are told.

Too funny, people.

I have only been flying for 40+ years, so I
don't know very much.

But when I do tailwheel instruction on the
Maule (which has 3 flap positions: up, 15, 35)
15 flap is used for takeoff (as per Maule POH)
and I never use 35 flap for landing - only 15.

15 flap gets me the reduction in stall speed.
35 flap just gets me more drag, which I don't
need.

Students apply 35 flap on final, they have to
add power to overcome the drag of the flaps,
to maintain a normal approach angle.

That's stupid.

35 flaps in the Maule (which I have only been
flying for 43 years now) results in a steep approach,
which is only required when clearing high obstacles
near the runway threshold. That is not normal,
and in fact not legal with a certified runway.

Using takeoff flaps for approach certainly simplifies
the re-configuration of the aircraft during touch
and goes.

Various people here will recommend that neophyte
tailwheel pilots get their head inside the cockpit as
they are roaring down the runway, reaching for
the flap, to raise it from 35 to 15 for the takeoff.

This increases safety, they tell me.

I think not.

But I have only been flying for 40+ years, so what
would I know?

[Cat Driver]

God forbid we even mention a slipping turn from down wind to touch down Colonel.

[timel]

In a darkly humorous way, this thread is
very funny. It was spawned by a student
crashing because they tried to climb out
with full flaps.

According to various people here, it is
vitally important that students continue
to crash, climbing out with full flap, so
that they can touch down 1 mph slower.

She forgot to put the flaps up, it was not intentional.
Again, you are rolling on runway
1- flaps up
2- max power
3- carb heat off

Need a checklist?

This 1 mph reduction gives a bigger safety
improvement than not crashing in the
overshoot with full flaps, we are told.

Too funny, people.

I have only been flying for 40+ years, so I
don't know very much.

When people argue, does not mean they want to discredit you.
More flaps will allow a steeper approach. Honestly 0 or 40. Do what you want.

But when I do tailwheel instruction on the
Maule (which has 3 flap positions: up, 15, 35)
15 flap is used for takeoff (as per Maule POH)
and I never use 35 flap for landing - only 15.

15 flap gets me the reduction in stall speed.
35 flap just gets me more drag, which I don't
need.

Students apply 35 flap on final, they have to
add power to overcome the drag of the flaps,
to maintain a normal approach angle.

That's stupid.

35 flaps in the Maule (which I have only been
flying for 43 years now) results in a steep approach,
which is only required when clearing high obstacles
near the runway threshold. That is not normal,
and in fact not legal with a certified runway.

Tail draggers is an other thing. I rarely use full flaps for obvious safety reasons.

Using takeoff flaps for approach certainly simplifies
the re-configuration of the aircraft during touch
and goes.

Various people here will recommend that neophyte
tailwheel pilots get their head inside the cockpit as
they are roaring down the runway, reaching for
the flap, to raise it from 35 to 15 for the takeoff.

This increases safety, they tell me.

I think not.

But I have only been flying for 40+ years, so what
would I know?

Full flaps 40 - 20 is like 5 seconds during t&g?
You can also put full flaps, power idle when sure to make the runway and let it glide down.

God forbid we even mention a slipping turn from down wind to touch down Colonel.

Why not

[Cat Driver]

Tail draggers is an other thing. I rarely use full flaps for obvious safety reasons.

Tail wheel airplanes handle differently in the air than nose wheel airplanes?

For instance, can you tell the difference between a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 170 by the way it flys in the air?

[timel]

Tail draggers is an other thing. I rarely use full flaps for obvious safety reasons.

Tail wheel airplanes handle differently in the air than nose wheel airplanes?

For instance, can you tell the difference between a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 170 by the way it flys in the air?

No differences in flight at all.

For landing, it is simpler with less flaps, not saying I would not put them full down ever... but there is a strong crosswind I might give myself the option to put back power and avoid lifting up stuck with full flaps, for example...

[TeePeeCreeper]

God forbid we even mention a slipping turn from down wind to touch down Colonel.

You mean I'm not suppose to perform them operationally speaking (never with pax unless it's absolutely required) yet I've been doing so for years without any fanfare?

Better call my CP tomorrow and resign (maybe I could SMS myself to prevent my letter of resignation? Yes, good plan!)

All the best,
TPC (has only landed the aircraft he flies for a living full flaps once)

[Colonel Sanders]

I don't know why people think airplanes are
all the same, and thus should be flown the same.

For example, in a Taylorcraft BC12D, with no
flaps, you can bet I'm going to do a slipping turn
onto final (as . mentioned) and probably
a sideslip on final as required. I probably won't
use full or even partial flap because it doesn't
have any. Because it doesn't have any flap,
does that mean a Taylorcraft BC12D is unsafe
and shouldn't be flown?!

Contrast that with an L39, which I fly later
that same day. It would be extremely unusual
for me to do a slipping turn onto final in that
aircraft, or to sideslip on final, or to NOT use
full flaps.

Why on earth should I fly a BC12D the same
as an L39?! They are wildly different. They
both have wings and an engine, but that's
about all they have in common. Why the
hell would anyone insist that they be flown
the same?

Should I fly the same circuit height, size
and speed in the L39 that I fly in the BC12D?

Whenever I hear someone preaching about
widespread generalizations like this, I can't
help but wonder about their experience.

Worse, I suspect they are often just parroting
what some other inexperienced pilot told them.

Try to break the circle of repetition. Learn that
aircraft can be very different, and airports and
runways can be very different, and conditions
(wind, density altitude) can be very different.

It would be very surprising if the solution to this
set of equations with M unknowns and N answers
was a single constant K.

When someone walks up to me and starts to
lecture me on wheel landings vs 3 point, I just
smile and walk away.

[Colonel Sanders]

Full flaps 40 - 20 is like 5 seconds during t&g?

Next tailwheel student I train, I will tell
them that the internet says that it is ok
to stop controlling a taildragger, rolling
down the runway at high speed after a
touch and go landing, for 5 seconds while
you look inside and mess with the flaps.
Nothing bad will happen.

See "cost/benefit analysis"

I probably don't do as much tailwheel
instruction as you, but I don't want the
student's eyeballs and attention ANYWHERE
except outside, when he is rolling a taildragger
down the runway at an "expensive" speed.

[PilotDAR]

We all agree that different types prefer different techniques, as do different pilots - and that's okay. Yes, I can tell the difference between the 172 and 170 in flight - all other things being equal, the 170 is a bit faster. I don't have CS's nor Cat's experience, though I have managed safe flight for a bunch of decades so far. My preference for nosewheel planes is to minimize the wear and tear on nosewheels, which are generally the weak point in the undercarriage, but not burn up brakes to do it. Thus, I really like the high(er) drag afforded by lots of flap - it slows you down in the air, and slows you down on the runway. Amphibious floatplanes are a great example of planes for which brake use should be minimized, and nosewheel preservation maximized. They also descend like a set of car keys power off with full flap. For those, 20 flap until crossing the numbers and beginning the flare - but I still like to get the rest of the flap out.

My taildragger was originally designed with no flaps (I think he was thinking of Cat's Cat). Later serial numbers had flaps added to the design, and they do help more in attaining an ideal pitch attitude on the water. Their effect to increase lift or drag is modest, and yes, I use full flap for every takeoff and landing - just like a lake amphibian.

I promise - if I see the light in my C 150, and decide that full flap landings as a matter of course are no longer a good idea, I'll come here and confess my sins! If I'm type trained on other types for which partial flap use in some cases is what I'm trained (as I was on the Twin Otter) than that's how I'll fly it!

[Colonel Sanders]

There is no single "right answer" to the use
of flaps in little airplanes, valid for all conditions.

Just as there is no single "right answer" to wheel
landings vs 3-point landings in little taildraggers,
valid for all conditions.

There is no single "right answer" to boxer
shorts vs tighty whities, either. No one can
tell you, whether or not you prefer to wear
boxer shorts or tighty whities.

Do what works for you. It's ok for people to fly
aircraft differently. This overwhelming need for
conformity, and for people to inflict their thinking
upon other people, is a bit frightening. Develop
some tolerance for different people and circumstances.

FWIW I can sit on the ground, and tell you exactly
whom is flying an otherwise identical Pitts, by the
details of their approach style. While this might
horrify a four-bars, I don't mind it at all, and gives
you a bit of insight into the process of teaching
someone to land a Pitts.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Overshot should be considered as an emergency procedure itself as well as the sideslip to accelerate the descent.



Anyways my 2 cents.

Excuse me? Pardon? Seriously? Really? An overshoot and a side slip are an "emergency procedure".....on what planet??
Illya

Alright take a pill.
Forget the emergency term, it is not what I meant.

Sideslip should be made only on last resort on a too high approach, if you need to land ASAP or accelerate descent in flight on a short distance. People tend to use it everywhere.

Overshoot, all I meant is that it is not be taken lightly due to ground proximity, and it should be taught seriously but yes it is not an emergency, feel better?

First off, I will not take a pill!
The reason pilots are not proficient at side slips, is that people (like you, it seems) treat them as scary, dangerous events. Knowing how, and when to side slip is a BASIC flight skill. If you need a "last resort" anywhere on an approach, a go around is called for. It's that simple. Unless it's a forced, in which case, I'd plan it on the high side, and slip it in on purpose.
Illya

[timel]

First off, I will not take a pill!
The reason pilots are not proficient at side slips, is that people (like you, it seems) treat them as scary, dangerous events. Knowing how, and when to side slip is a BASIC flight skill. If you need a "last resort" anywhere on an approach, a go around is called for. It's that simple. Unless it's a forced, in which case, I'd plan it on the high side, and slip it in on purpose.
Illya

I agree, and it is what I said.
Since you did not like the emergency term (or emergency situation is more adequate I admit), and you got all over yourself for that, I switched it with landing ASAP.

Have a good day

[Illya Kuryakin]

Tail draggers is an other thing. I rarely use full flaps for obvious safety reasons.

Tail wheel airplanes handle differently in the air than nose wheel airplanes?

For instance, can you tell the difference between a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 170 by the way it flys in the air?

No differences in flight at all.

For landing, it is simpler with less flaps, not saying I would not put them full down ever... but there is a strong crosswind I might give myself the option to put back power and avoid lifting up stuck with full flaps, for example...

Have to admit, I enjoy seeing someone argue with the Cat over tail wheel flying technique.
I've flown a Beech 18 with a nose wheel conversion. Flys the same as it did before the conversion. Near as I could tell. Taxied different though.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't always land with full flap. Sometimes I land with no flap at all. Sometimes, when I'm on short final, with everything stable (unusual for me) I just land the puppy with whatever flap happens to be hanging out "right now", so as not to mess anything up.
I don't treat an overshoot as an "event" because I make the decision to do so with lots of time in my "bank". This is not rocket science people, don't make it more difficult than it is. KISS
Illya

[timel]

The four of you are a pain in the ass to talk to, and actually, please line up for the dick contest. I am not interested in getting my word twisted and be told to be incompetent because I decided to argue.

You know what, even if I am right you, Cat , Col and SSU. You guys will never admit it.

[Colonel Sanders]

May I quote the 3rd commandment from "The Flamer's Bible"?

Conspiracies abound: If everyone’s against you, the reason can’t possibly be that you’re a f__khead. There’s obviously a conspiracy against you, and you will be doing the entire net a favor by exposing it.

[timel]

No conspiracies
Just four huge egos.

But feel free to keep quoting me out of context.
I am done on that topic.

[Colonel Sanders]

Just four huge egos

You may very well be correct, but that
is somewhat orthogonal to this discussion.

FWIW ., Ilya, me and SSU have 150
years of combined flying experience. And,
you think we all don't have a clue?

Hm. The Convergence of the Central Limit
Theorem would tend to disprove that theory.

[Cat Driver]

The secret to success in aviation is presenting yourself to a client based on the size of your ego, the bigger your ego the more they will pay you.

Based on what my clients paid me to fly for them my ego has to be really big.

[Illya Kuryakin]

There is no "right" way. There is no "wrong" way. If you do it right, and bend it, you did it wrong. If you do it wrong and nothing untoward happens, you did it right. Ny questions?
Illya