College of pilots

[Shotgun Chuck McCoy]

Could one of you who has mentioned it quote a written source or meeting at which the requirement for a university degree was mentioned? I have been following this for quite a while now as well but I never heard that part (or at least don't remember hearing it).

Thanks

[AirFrame]

That's the thing. If you've been following this from the beginning the agenda is to take over licensing...

Which shows how out-to-lunch they really are right from the get-go. They don't want to take over Private, Recreational, or Ultralight licenses, they just want the "lucrative" Commercial market. Unfortunately, they seem blissfully unaware that Transport isn't interested in giving up the Commercial pilots without giving up *all* licensing. It's all or nothing, and that's assuming Transport will do it at all.

[trey kule]

So, you can't walk away from the low ball offers because the next guy behind you is willing to work for even less..

Ah... I am pretty sure you can. Let the guy behind you have the job. It is this kind of rationalization that keeps wages low.

One thing I found interesting is in Germany some organizations, like The Y cannot except volunteers because it would take paid work away from someone.

Yet pilots will not only work for free, they will actually pay an airline to hire them...

From what I can see from the college of pilots information is they are all about airline pilot issues, and when it comes to other issues they trot out the old we will listen to our members. What kind of an organization is formed first and then trys to figure out what its purpose is? Perhaps one that wants membership from a wide base while really concerned about a small portion...just a guess, and of course, one to have me branded as negative..

You can bet the TFW issue will be first and foremost on their plate...things like petitioning the govt to enforce federal labour standards for 703 ops...not so much.

[DonutHole]

All of the degree talk has been removed, the key is here that it is a democratic body that will, as they say:

Refine the vision as membership sees fit

So what does that mean?

Their page is really vague, it's almost the most generic page i've seen. It is all about how they plan to do something, not *WHAT* they plan to do.

Very much an "I'm the leader which way do we go?" type page

Which would be fine if they hadn't let their agenda slip out in the beginning.

[Illya Kuryakin]

The thing I find interesting about foreign workers are....the pilots doing most of the bitching are nowhere near qualified to take the job...AND...I'm sure there are MANY more Canadian pilots working in other countries than there are foreign pilots working here. So. To fairly close the door on TFW, we would need to bring all the Canadians home that are temporarily working in other countries?
Illya

[DonutHole]

the people who aren't qualified to fill the seats filled by the tfw's need to bitch because they need those seats filled by canadians, which would empty seats for the guys who aren't qualified, leading them to a place where they can become qualified and move up... circle of life.

lots of the countries Canadians are doing temporary work in actually have a shortage of qualified pilots...

really it boils down to chicken vs. egg

[teacher]

Man, aren't we a sad bunch. Completely unwilling to even help ourselves. We have nobody to blame but us for the state of our industry. No wonder this profession can't get any better.

For those wanting a super union think about this. The day all of ALPA, ACPA and the Westjet pilot's union agree to merge seniority lists we will have your super union. Until than it will never happen. Hell, the Air Canada family of pilot groups can barely agree to work together towards a common goal of improving our collective situation!!!!!!! Like the College debate here, pilots are sadly and pathetically unable to help themselves OR see the bigger picture.

[Diadem]

Man, aren't we a sad bunch. Completely unwilling to even help ourselves. We have nobody to blame but us for the state of our industry. No wonder this profession can't get any better.

For those wanting a super union think about this. The day all of ALPA, ACPA and the Westjet pilot's union agree to merge seniority lists we will have your super union. Until than it will never happen. Hell, the Air Canada family of pilot groups can barely agree to work together towards a common goal of improving our collective situation!!!!!!! Like the College debate here, pilots are sadly and pathetically unable to help themselves OR see the bigger picture.

But see, I don't know that the College would actually help in any way, because I have no idea what they intend to do. I went through their website to try to find a single concrete plan, and the best I could come up with was "Initiate insurance plans for members (delayed)". Great, their one actual idea, and it's delayed. Everything else is a bunch of buzzwords: "Recruiting and communicating the vision", "Refine the vision as membership sees fit", "Reinforce credibility through our professional behaviour", and "maintenance of professional standards". What is the "vision" to which they refer? "The College of Professional Pilots of Canada will be recognized world-wide as the “gold standard” for the self-governing model for maintaining pilot’s credentials." That's nice, but it doesn't tell me what they plan to do. They won't take a stand on the TFW issue, they won't set a payscale, they won't negotiate for better working conditions or participate in labour disputes, and they don't intend to address the surplus of CPLs being issued. As far as I can tell, they aren't actually doing anything to improve our working conditions. They don't have any tangible plans. The only thing I take from this is "Give us your money and everything will get better". It sounds like a cult, as does the ferocity with which its adherents support it.
If the College ever sets out an actual goal, with a plan to achieve that goal, I might support it. If they start actually doing something to improve conditions for pilots, I'll definitely support it. If they keep saying "Become a member, give us your money, and things will get better. Trust us, you'll see!", then I'll be staying well clear of it.

[Slappy the Squirrel]

But see, I don't know that the College would actually help in any way, because I have no idea what they intend to do. I went through their website to try to find a single concrete plan, and the best I could come up with was "Initiate insurance plans for members (delayed)".

I completely agree with what Diadem is saying. I've been watching to see if there's anything there that interests me, and I can't find it. I find it is a lot of buzzwords and smart sounding concepts, but not a lot of tangible goals. They say they will tackle the TFW issue, however, all they're saying is they will just make sure TFW's are licensed properly, not working towards preventing them. Also, they want to take over licensing, which is fine, but what changes are they going to make exactly? Some people have said Doctors and lawyers colleges limit the number of members trained each year, but our College has explicitly said it won't be doing this. The way I see it now, Transport takes care of licensing, why would I want to pay dues each year for somebody else to do the same job?

I honestly was excited when I first heard the idea of this College, but I am truly struggling to see the vision here besides more bureaucracy to deal with. I know people say it can be whatever I want it to be if/when I sign up, but a lot of the issues I care about they have already declared they don't want to deal with.

[timel]

Man, aren't we a sad bunch. Completely unwilling to even help ourselves. We have nobody to blame but us for the state of our industry. No wonder this profession can't get any better.

For those wanting a super union think about this. The day all of ALPA, ACPA and the Westjet pilot's union agree to merge seniority lists we will have your super union. Until than it will never happen. Hell, the Air Canada family of pilot groups can barely agree to work together towards a common goal of improving our collective situation!!!!!!! Like the College debate here, pilots are sadly and pathetically unable to help themselves OR see the bigger picture.

I think it is the very first time the college tries to sort out some message to the public on internet.
I got my membership out of good faith and I will continue to support it.

But I agree...

A bunch of pilots are asking fair questions and the college should answer frankly to each of this points. I wish the board would work on this.

Personally I do not think it is a negative thread. But so far I have to admit, it is all conceptual / abstract. The college hasn't come out with a finished product that pilots can buy or not, way of speaking.
When I speak about it to my co-workers they can't grab what the college really wants out of this project and where they will be headed if they jump in.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I renewed my CPPC (#70) membership and continue to hope that this will be the vector for change that so many of us are yearning for in this industry.

Many criticize and knock the CPPC, but I fail to see an alternative for now.

[GRK]

Wow…and you guys who joined paid money to this bunch? PT Barnum was right...

[joe forty-sixpack]

.

[Navaids]

Does anyone have experience using the positive space travel through ATP Instone? Seems like a good deal for all members in good standing and their immediate family members.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

.

You deleted your post ?

[Outlaw58]

I follow loosely this issue; I am neither for or against the College.

For those of us who are past the entry level jobs, bitching at pilots for accepting low wage jobs will accomplish nothing. We all know it's wrong, we all want it to stop, but it's never going to happen cause as long as there is ONE pilot willing to accept a low wage job, everyone else will follow suit. Stopping this trend will not happen spontaneously without the help of some sort of organized body or enforcement.

So that’s why I think I understand what the College is trying to achieve, but is unsure how to get there.

At the entry level, if the College had a deal with insurance company (ies) to somehow provide those companies with a better system for measuring pilot experience besides Total Flying Time, which let’s face it means squat, thus resulting into lower insurance fees for those so-called college approved pilots, it would then provide an incentive for hiring those pilots at a higher (college set) wage vs hiring another pilot (say a TFW) but at a higher insurance cost.

That’s what I read between the lines but as previously stated, I believe the College isn’t quite sure how to reach the end-state hence the vagueness of their mission statements.

Interesting point of views from all sides of the issues though, that’s for sure.

JP

[timel]

The thing I find interesting about foreign workers are....the pilots doing most of the bitching are nowhere near qualified to take the job...AND...I'm sure there are MANY more Canadian pilots working in other countries than there are foreign pilots working here. So. To fairly close the door on TFW, we would need to bring all the Canadians home that are temporarily working in other countries?
Illya

I truly wonder what are the hours of TFW copilots hired by SW? 4000-6000 hours or 250-1000 hours?

In 2 minutes I can find over 15 CAN +3500hrs pilots.
Considering that cadets programs in EU make fantastic 250 hours FO's for airbus or boeing, I am sure there could be a bunch of trainable whiners here in Canada.

If Emirates or Asia lack of pilots, I think it is fair for Canadian to go work for them. They fill up a need.
As soon as they won't need CAN pilots anymore, it will be finished, they don't give tax free jobs for the fun of it. I know Asians already append to fail on purpose Canadian PPCs in order to restrain foreign pilots from accessing their markets. They want to protect it as well.

Canada does not need TFW, there are enough pilots on the market.

[trey kule]

know Asians already append to fail on purpose Canadian PPCs in order to restrain foreign pilots from accessing their markets. They want to protect it as well.

Really! How do you know this? I am a bit familiar with some of the Asian markets. China, for example, just released its fourth revision of their CCARs.(effective 1 September) And one of the more notable revisions was that they made it much much easier for foreign pilots to work there.

So share with us how you know some country is purposely failing . Lets have a bit of detail.

[timel]

know Asians already append to fail on purpose Canadian PPCs in order to restrain foreign pilots from accessing their markets. They want to protect it as well.

Really! How do you know this? I am a bit familiar with some of the Asian markets. China, for example, just released its fourth revision of their CCARs.(effective 1 September) And one of the more notable revisions was that they made it much much easier for foreign pilots to work there.

So share with us how you know some country is purposely failing . Lets have a bit of detail.

I was told a story about a sim and a few captains, even though they were all type rated on the airplane, they have all failed the sim evaluation, all of them were sent back in their countries. And the story seemed to be, it wasn't because they were not good.

Maybe it was isolated, but from what I understood, not all Chinese crews are very pleased with foreign pilots having the jobs. To make your arrival as a direct entry captain in the country is not very easy.
That is what I was told from what I believe to be a reliable expat flying Asia.

I do not really want to get on Asian topic, but if you have a different views as a pilot working in that market, I will be very glad to hear them. I am just interested about facts.

My point is more everyone seem to protect their own pie and it is fair to do so IMO, even China that is craving for experienced pilots. A country can have very light regulations, it does not mean it will reflect the hiring environment directly.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I know this guy, who knows this other guy, who told him a story that he'd read on a washroom wall.....
Okay fine. What a crock!
The college needs to pull their heads out of the clouds and form an association of CDN Commercial Pilots. So far, all I've seen is smoke and mirrors. It's a dog and pony show, which some you are buying into, sending dues to, and still signing bonds, paying cash up front, working ramps and accepting crap wages...because the guy behind you will snatch up that piece of shit job if you don't.
Illya

[timel]

I know this guy, who knows this other guy, who told him a story that he'd read on a washroom wall.....
Okay fine. What a crock!

Pfff... That is your response?

[timel]

At the entry level, if the College had a deal with insurance company (ies) to somehow provide those companies with a better system for measuring pilot experience besides Total Flying Time, which let’s face it means squat, thus resulting into lower insurance fees for those so-called college approved pilots, it would then provide an incentive for hiring those pilots at a higher (college set) wage vs hiring another pilot (say a TFW) but at a higher insurance cost.


JP

That is interesting.

I still believe that create a real scale of experience (and salaries) that fits Canada would allow pilots to evaluate our real value as a pilot market. That could be done by the college.

The college needs to pull their heads out of the clouds and form an association of CDN Commercial Pilots. So far, all I've seen is smoke and mirrors. It's a dog and pony show, which some you are buying into, sending dues to, and still signing bonds, paying cash up front, working ramps and accepting crap wages...because the guy behind you will snatch up that piece of shit job if you don't.
Illya

So far, the only people that took some of their free time to sit down, organize, create something are the college people. What to start your association?


-------
After all those conversations, people fail to understand that TFW will only hurt Canadian pilots wages and the industry in Canada. What do you think companies that need captains will do when they wont find any pilots?

You will see, ads with needed captains, 3000 hrs to fly a king air, 43k, into some ratholes... They wont get any resumes? Know why? Because no 3000 hrs captain willing to do those jobs at that rate, not less than 60k. Those companies will just run to ESDC saying they don't get any resume and they need to hire TFW.

What can we say to ESDC? That company didn't fill a serious ad for hiring Canadian? On what base? Our national salary scale established by the college of pilots, which is base on experience available on the market? Food for thoughts...

The day there are no more pilots of experience left on the market to fill up jobs that offer real salaries, I'll be the first one welcoming TFW.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I know this guy, who knows this other guy, who told him a story that he'd read on a washroom wall.....
Okay fine. What a crock!

Pfff... That is your response?

Back it up with names and dates. You can't, and you know it, so I'm calling bull shit.

[Illya Kuryakin]

News Flash for ya Time. The ONLY people hurting pilot wages in Canada, are Canadian pilots willing to work for handouts.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

Name two (2) (deux) things the college had done for the "average" Canadian pilot. And, how much have they collected so far in dues? Do pilots think they're getting their money's worth?
Illya