CAT 1 MEDICAL (DRUGS???)

[B52]

Going back a few years, I was a certified forensic sampler.
That's a grand title for someone who collects pee in a bottle
and or uses tweezers and gloves to pull out a hair follicle etc.

While I did lots of random tests, I was supposed to be on call
to go to the airport and sample anyone who as supposedly or alleged
to be in need of such a test.

It never ever happened. I heard that when they did want to test
"a pilot" he was well gone before the sampler arrived. Dito for lots
of other professions.

There is a huge industry in defeating testing. From sudden clean shaven heads.
to special detox kits, then there is of course, fake organs that are used to squirt
pre purchased clean urine or, even, those who insert the urine sample to come out
of the real organ etc.

So, as a sampler, you use a variety of precautions when ever you suspect that
someone is pulling a fast one and the odds of them defeating those measures
is very remote. More likely, they will simply fail to comply or fail to provide or
just be unavailable.

Now this may offend some readers.

I've seen airline pilots flying after being called on duty from a party
where they had been drinking. I've found out about pilots who smoke pot, be it a day or days before flying
and if they were tested it would show what was in their system in previous hours if
a urine sample or months if a hair sample.

While these are rare examples, they do happen. They just happen to be examples I've come into contact with
and bearing in mind the secrecy that such people would keep, and avoid discovery, the problem is probably
a lot worse than what I "know about".


Drugs are a significant problem in society and while pilots as a group may be less likely
there is no guarantee that because they are a pilot that they won't do any form of drugs.
There are some pilots who are the very personalities who are a high risk group
simply because of their personality and or lifestyle and or "friends".

We are facing more and more problems with drugs.

At the teen years age, the pot usage is in Excess of 50%
Molly, Xtal Meth and or Cocaine is around 10% at a minimum.
Its becoming an epidemic problem at most high schools.

I'd suggest that some random testing is necessary as a deterrent,
there needs to be on going training on how to recognize the signs
and symptoms of drug usage.

I've no doubt that an experienced pilot could fly quite ok and look ok
to most people most of the time if they used Molly in the last week
but to anyone familiar with the symptoms, and or behaviour,
there will be a lot of symptoms that will give the game away.

It's the same on Canadian Roads,
there is NO Random breath or drug sampling.

Other countries like Australia will have perhaps 12 random road blocks up over a large city and
EVERYONE, even cops and Ambulance drivers in the group of cars is tested. They even have
Diversionary obvious stops to encourage flouters to use a well known back road where
a main unit is waiting.

You don't see that in Canada which effectively encourages drinking and or drug use while
driving.

[Taiser]

As a person working in Law Enforcement, that is a GREAT post!!!

[azimuthaviation]

SO, to all of the "perfect" posters here that demonize marijuana and make it sound like a career killer, what are you going to say when it's legal? It's already legal in some places and it won't be long till it reaches here.

I am fairly sure it will be treated the same way alcohol is treated... Most likely with a longer gap than 8 hours. Who knows.

The regulations for aviation are based on the impact it has on the operation of aircraft, not on the legality or illegality of a substance. Benzoaproates are legal, prescribed,and common, but will invalidate your medical.

Drug use is already accounted for in the regs for obtaining a medical. The standards by which they determine what is legal for safe operation of an aircraft is not going to change because Colorado legalized pot, (for which I commend them, not that I ever touch the stuff).

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 2-1412.htm

The applicant shall be free from... any effect or side effect of any prescribed or non-prescribed therapeutic medication taken.

The applicant shall have no established medical history or clinical diagnosis which, according to accredited medical conclusion, would render the applicant unable to exercise safely the privileges of the permit, licence or rating applied for or held, as follows: (a) psychosis or established neurosis;
(b) alcohol or chemical dependence or abuse;

So the medical examiners job is to take the test, and send the information to someone in TC who looks at the info and decides if the candidate is fit for a medical or not. If he deems you unfit then you can appeal all the way up to the tribunal. They have tribunal board members who are MD's and will make the decision based on their medical knowledge. But they will never take your side, ask Hedley.

[dazednconfused]

Hello There,

i got no time for people bitchin below about this. I just want the facts. Does the medical test for drugs?

All my pilot friends say the most the dr. does is make you pee in a cup, but its only checking your sugar levels, diabetes & something etc... One has even asked if they check for drugs, and the dr. said no.

A real professional right here. Must be very busy. He "got no time for people bitchin". Just wants the facts: can he hide his drug use? Hopefully he can find time to fly an aircraft around, maybe with pax, or over a populated area, and circumvent the system.

I do not buy this: what a person is doing in their spare time is of no concern. I think it speaks volumes about professionalism and decision making. This is someone I would not want to be working with. And, no, I'm talking about having a beer, or two, 24 hours before departure. When you have to come on a forum looking for answers to such an "issue", it probably means you have a little more going on in your life that needs to be dealt with before you starting endangering others, and yourself.

[JDW]

Just had a thought. We are likely to see pot legalized in our lifetimes. When that happens, do you think it would suddenly be alright for a pilot to smoke on their day off, given some sorta specified waiting period or would it be more like benzos and the like?

[182-SS]

I'd suggest that some random testing is necessary as a deterrent,
there needs to be on going training on how to recognize the signs
and symptoms of drug usage.
It's the same on Canadian Roads,
there is NO Random breath or drug sampling.
You don't see that in Canada which effectively encourages drinking and or drug use while
driving.

As a person working in Law Enforcement, that is a GREAT post!!!

I completely agree with all that in the fact that you need to be 100% sober while flying. However if you want random testing I suggest giving out arm bands to pilots and drivers etc so the Gestapo knows who they are stopping.

But you are also wrong, there is random testing all the time, have you never seen, heard of, or been through a road block looking for impaired drivers? Ive been through more than I can count.

B52 and Taiser, I'll say again I agree 100% with all on the necessity on being sober while flying but If you want to give up your rights and freedoms please feel free to move to the plethora of countries that do not share our "freedom" that our grandfathers fought and died for (which is slowly being eroded away anyways). Safety in aviation is paramount, there is no argument from anyone on that, but I implore anyone who thinks along the lines of random searches or testing to think it through how fundamentally against our rights and freedoms that is. And of course you will respond "If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear"....... which history has proven time and time again that this statement and thought process is folly.

[MrWings]

our "freedom" that our grandfathers fought and died for (which is slowly being eroded away anyways).

What freedom is being eroded? Examples?

[photofly]

our "freedom" that our grandfathers fought and died for (which is slowly being eroded away anyways).

What freedom is being eroded? Examples?

The freedom to drive soberly along the highway without being stopped for a random breath test under suspicion of impairment, for example.

[B52]

Quote:

I completely agree with all that in the fact that you need to be 100% sober while flying. However if you want random testing I suggest giving out arm bands to pilots and drivers etc so the Gestapo knows who they are stopping.
END QUOTE:

Canada already has it's "Gestapo" organizations and they are NOT related to Aviation.
They do however destroy lots of pilots in their fascist programs that most pilots only find out about
when they become the victims.

The "Random Testing" does infringe on civil liberties but for the public benefit and public protection.
Those who call police who do such random testing, Gestapo generally have a life long drug or drinking problem
and believe that if they can get away with it then it's their constitutional right to take those risks and expose
everyone else to that risk.


So, Who are the Gestapo?

Canada is no different from most western countries where child protection workers are out of control, unaccountable and criminal in practice. See http://www.Blakout.ca "As powerful as god".

Canadian Police are no different from most western police, they assume women have halo's around their heads and men, well, if you are born with testicles then you are a criminal.

Canadian Police are fundamentally corrupt and Criminal Organizations. They are controlled, operated and encouraged in
what is called "OLD SCHOOL".

That's the expression Police use for behaving like criminals while pretending to be law enforcement.

"Old School" also means, if you don't go along with crime by police, your career will come to an end.

"Old School" means you will make regular entries in what is the secret data bases of police intelligence files
that is NEVER disclosed as "Disclosure". It's that practice that increasingly creates a Secret Police mentality
that affects us all sooner or later, even if you don't know about it. The odds are that
any reader of this post has a file that they don't know about.

I'm in Ontario, so I'll be specific. Police think the Criminal Laws and their powers are for their Personal and Corporate benefit.
They think that the Courts are there to be abused by them when ever they wish to act like GOD.

It's now routine for Police and Prosecutors to Fabricate evidence, lay vexatious charges against anyone who they deem might express an opinion that for example, advocates for a lower police budget, or in fact, any political opinion that the Police Associations might not like.

Most Criminal Charges in Ontario result in Police Failing to provide Full Disclosure.
It's now routine for trials to start without disclosure having been provided and
increasingly, judges are chosen for their ability to brown nose to the Judicial selection panels
who are in turn, government selected psychopaths hell bent on recruiting the same as judges
who, will "support the authorities".

It's now reaching epidemic proportions and overloading the courts which means while
Police and prosecutors devote their resources to "Gestapo Activities" real criminals
such as those Police and or "Authorities" who brazenly fabricate evidence, do so,
because they are "protected" by "the Old School"
which is what readers can now refer to as, "The Real Gestapo".


Bottom Line - Make sure you know have a name and phone number memorized of a well respected
Criminal Lawyer, a Child Protection Lawyer because if "the Gestapo"
can and do turn their attention on those who never dream that they could become meat for their grinder.

Their favorite targets, are former employees of the same organizations, who are regarded as traitors
and deserving total destruction which is all to frequently, a very real, very slow death sentence
that has a similar time frame to Jews who were put in Cattle Carts for the concentration camps.

[Sidebar]

...being stopped for a random breath test under suspicion of impairment, for example.

I've never been through a checkstop.

My impression was that the cops don't test randomly amongst the people stopped, but look for signs of impairment that warrant further testing. Is this correct?

[182-SS]

...being stopped for a random breath test under suspicion of impairment, for example.

I've never been through a checkstop.

My impression was that the cops don't test randomly amongst the people stopped, but look for signs of impairment that warrant further testing. Is this correct?

Well in western Canada every single Friday and Saturday night you can be assured that there is multiple road blocks set up checking for impairment. During the holidays it is every night. Summer time its weekends and weekdays. As I said before Ive been though too many to count and that's not embellishing.

What freedom is being eroded? Examples?[/quote]

our "freedom" that our grandfathers fought and died for (which is slowly being eroded away anyways).

What freedom is being eroded? Examples?

The freedom to drive soberly along the highway without being stopped for a random breath test under suspicion of impairment, for example.

Exactly, forgive me for not looking up the exact wording however we have the right to move freely without hindrance throughout this great nation.
I have been pulled over a number of times for absolutely no reason. Not speeding, not impaired, not driving erratically. One cop pulled me over (he was in front on a 4 lane highway) and asked me why I didn't pass him, he asked if I was afraid to, to which I replied, "obviously I have a reason as I would have to speed to pass, I did not pass you and you pulled me over anyways for no reason". He said he didn't need a reason to pull me over and he was going to breathalyze me and search my vehicle due to my attitude. I Shit you not. This is not the only time I've had situations like this. I was a clean cut younger male from a good family with a business. Always kept out of trouble, and the Police wonder why they have such a bad name. My wife didn't believe me, or understand until this exact thing happened to us when we were going for ice cream with friends.

I had a very good friend who is a cop and the stories he shared and the things many of them (not all of course, you cant paint them all with one brush) do is immoral, embarrassing and and at worst criminal. I was brought up in a conservative house hold with respect being a priority, and I'm here to tell you when you deal with the police, they have none and deserve little (again not all of course, I do know another cop quite well that is so by the book he'd turn himself in...maybe).

But back to the other discussion, as long as it doesn't effect your flying at all, the key words are at all, its no ones business what you do in your own time.

[B52]

[/quote]
What freedom is being eroded? Examples? "freedom" that our grandfathers fought and died for (which is slowly being eroded away anyways).

What freedom is being eroded? Examples?
The freedom to drive soberly along the highway without being stopped for a random breath test under suspicion of impairment, for example.

Exactly, forgive me for not looking up the exact wording however we have the right to move freely without hindrance throughout this great nation.[/quote]

I snipped out a far bit of the above post.

It's called S. 6 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
The Legal Theory is:

Section 6.

Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.
Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right
a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and
b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.



The practical reality is very different and has little to do with Aviation which is generally Federally regulated.

Ontario for example has several draconian Gestapo like examples of abuses of
authority that effectively deport males from the province to anywhere else which makes
Ontario a province to avoid residing in.

[YYZSaabGuy]

Ontario for example has several draconian Gestapo like examples of abuses of
authority that effectively deport males from the province to anywhere else which makes
Ontario a province to avoid residing in.

Examples, please?

[MrWings]

The freedom to drive soberly along the highway without being stopped for a random breath test under suspicion of impairment, for example.

So our soldiers died for the freedom to drive without going through a check stop? I don't think so.

If anything, I think Canadians have been getting more freedoms. Especially when it comes to someone who isn't a anglo-saxon heterosexual Christian male.

[azimuthaviation]

Especially when it comes to someone who isn't a anglo-saxon heterosexual Christian male.

The right to operate vehicles while drunk or on drugs is where you draw your battle lines?

[MrWings]

Huh? Why would you say that?

[B52]

Especially when it comes to someone who isn't a anglo-saxon heterosexual Christian male.

Canada, is incredibly politically correct, you have to take reasonable care, as may be deemed
to be done politically correct, in order that you heaven forbid, say anything that might not
be approved by those who control our society' ideas of political correctness.

One Government funded unaccountable Billion dollar "cartel" hires as a rule
those who are not heterosexuals, who appear to be the smaller group when it comes
to the positions of power to hire and fire.

Society is now riddled with a bias against anyone and everyone who just happens
to be in that politically incorrect term, heterosexual.
Being a "Christian" well, at least it might make your security clearance happen a little quicker.


At the end of the day, the subject you raise, can get you fired, can get you effectively deported
or the subject of every authority you can imagine making your life so bad that you end up leaving
Canada.


It's called Intimidation...

[azimuthaviation]

Huh? Why would you say that?

Maybe I misunderstood your point. But if you were commenting about the dwindling proportion and influence of the straight white male in Canadian society, it seems that the fight against drunk drivers seems like an odd place to start to push back. I would think the final straw would be someplace else.

If you were saying that the freedoms in this country were won for reasons much bigger than roadside checkstops and that greater freedoms are shared with non white non heteros then I agree with you. I dont find checkstops to be a huge invasion of our privacy or fundamental rights and freedoms.