Holding/Approach

[CAVESPRING]

Question. You hold at YKF NDB at 5000'. On the outbound after entry you get cleared for the ILS 26. Do you have to go back to the beacon for one more loop before commencing the descent for the approach or can you descend to 3200' on the outbound right there then join the inbound on the localizer in one shot? Can you shuttle down slowly doing as many laps as needed to get down to the PT Altitude and then commence the approach when ready even if it means 2 additional hold laps? Just wondering what options are available to the pilot and what ATC really expects you to do.

Thanks! I hope I made the question somewhat clear

[photofly]

Question. You hold at YKF NDB at 5000'. On the outbound after entry you get cleared for the ILS 26. Do you have to go back to the beacon for one more loop before commencing the descent for the approach

No

or can you descend to 3200' on the outbound right there then join the inbound on the localizer in one shot?

Yes, with the proviso that the course reversal may be on the opposite side from the hold. You may need to position on side protected for the procedure turn before descending.

Can you shuttle down slowly doing as many laps as needed to get down to the PT Altitude and then commence the approach when ready even if it means 2 additional hold laps?

No, if you want extra turns in the hold you need to tell ATC. The hold is not part of the procedure for which you are cleared: a single course reversal is.

I base that on "cleared for the approach" expects the full procedure, including the procedure turn, however if you're already outbound in the hold when you get the clearance it would be unreasonable (and therefore unexpected) to turn back to the NDB then go outbound again for a course reversal.

If in any doubt, however, confirm your intentions with ATC. A short radio call ("XYZ cleared the approach, now outbound in the procedure turn") is never a bad idea.

[CAVESPRING]

Ah excellent! Thank you photofly.

[photofly]

Did you see the edit about making sure the descent is on the protected side?
I'm also curious if anyone disagrees with the gist of my post.

[CAVESPRING]

Yes I did. In this case, the hold is also on the same side as the PT. I can see that if I was holding on the opposite side, I would have to cross to the Protected Side before commencing the descent.

My question was because descending from 5000' to 3100' is quite a bit. I guess slowing down is key.

[zulutime]

Yes I did. In this case, the hold is also on the same side as the PT. I can see that if I was holding on the opposite side, I would have to cross to the Protected Side before commencing the descent.

My question was because descending from 5000' to 3100' is quite a bit. I guess slowing down is key.

If you're in the hold you've already likely slowed down. You can always extend your outbound now that you've been cleared for the approach as long as you keep within 7 nm of ZKF. I'm just getting back into IFR myself after some time away so if I'm wrong here I will see how others reply.

[CAVESPRING]

Sounds good, thanks guys. One more thing. What is the purpose of HAMES Intersection. It also shows 3360.

[Oxi]

I can only find older (2012 charts) but it can be used as an IAF. It also lines up with a glide slope intercept altitude or 3 degree slope for NPA.

[Rookie50]

You have the room and time to descend outbound on the procedure. Should be slowed, as others state. I've done that exact procedure myself in training --- correct me if I'm wrong but even if you're still descending on the procedure turn -- shouldn't be a reg reason why you can't. Just be at 3100 by the time you turn final.

It's more important to start the procedure turn within the 7 nm from zkf to stay in the protected airspace than if you are slightly high doing it. You do get used to faster rates of descent (when required) under the hood, btw, your comfort will increase.

Try if possible to go up in real cloud -- if the opportunity arises. The bumps etc are good training for how it is.

In "real approaches" at YKF you are vectored to final, well outside zkf, and cleared for a straight in approach. The full procedure is important, as that's what is used at airports commonly up north, that lie within uncontrolled airspace.

[Trapper]

Cavespring, the purpose of the HAMES fix is to provide adequate airspace for the Guelph Airpark circuit which is located below the procedure turn.

[Docbrad]

A tip I picked up doing my training: if you are told to do a simple hold at the FAF, and the procedure turn is to he left, before accepting the hold, request left hand turns. ATC doesn't normally give a hoot, so then you're holding on the protected side. No need to cross

[Big Pistons Forever]

A tip I picked up doing my training: if you are told to do a simple hold at the FAF, and the procedure turn is to he left, before accepting the hold, request left hand turns. ATC doesn't normally give a hoot, so then you're holding on the protected side. No need to cross

A better way is to avoid the hold in the first place. Knowing what is happening to other traffic by paying attention to the radio will often give you a heads up that you are less likely to get cleared immediately to the approach. Offering to slow down early and/or take a delaying vector can saving having to screw around with a hold.

IFR training makes a big deal about the hold because TC makes a big deal about it on the flight test. It also is a good training exercise for student instrument pilots to hone their multi-tasking and situational awareness skills. However in the real world a hold represents failure. You are driving around in circles wasting time and gas so IMHO first question you want to ask is not "where/how" do I want to hold, but how can avoid holding in the first place.

[NotDirty!]

YKF ILS.jpg (226.05 KiB) Viewed 2716 times

The 3360 note at HAMES means that on the glideslope, you will cross HAMES at 3360'.
Once you are cleared for the approach, you may start your descent, regardless of where you are in the procedure. Just know what the minimum altitude you can descend to is at that time. In many cases, if you are not holding on the protected side, you still have an MSA that applies to the area that you are in, and in this case is within a couple of hundred feet of the PT altitude. Also, as you know that the HAMES crossing altitude is 3360, you don't need to be level at 3100 when you turn final. In fact, once you turn final, you can descend as low as 3100, (2200 once inside HAMES), but you may not want to rush down to these altitudes if you have captured the glideslope; just follow it!

[eh3fifty]

When you're cleared for the approach you may start it right away. If you're already established outbound then continue until you're ready to turn inbound.

Generally, ATC will say, "ABC, after crossing QWE NDB, cleared full procedure ILS runway 26." So in that case, you need to continue the hold until you hit QWE, then start the full procedure ILS.

Usually ATC is clear in this matter but if you're unsure always clarify. Note: reading back something to ATC and hoping they will catch your errors is not a good way to get confirmation! Sorry to pick on you, photofly! Saying, "XYZ cleared the approach, now outbound in the procedure turn" and hoping they correct you if you're not supposed to be doing that is not good airmanship. Always ask ATC if you need clarification. Don't be afraid. Being clear is very important.

I taught IFR for a little bit and one of my pet peeves was when someone would bring up "the protected side" when talking about a procedure turn. There is no one protected side! The entire area is protected. This "unprotected side" you speak of actually gives you 1000' of clearance from obstacles for 4 nautical miles abeam the procedure turn track! I'd say 4 NM of 1000' clearance on the non-PT side would be called "protected" airspace. The proper terminology would be "PT side" and "non-PT side".

Here is the diagram for the PT from the TP 308 Change 6.0 (the most up to date version) document:

http://i.imgur.com/NEMnQ9w.png

http://i.imgur.com/etVHNGA.png

The first one shows you the amount of airspace protected. The protected airspace is designed so that you have approximately 4 NM of 1000' protection at ALL times! At the end of the PT you actually get 6 NM protection. When I fly a PT in my CAT C aircraft, I fly a 2 NM cross track, racetrack PT. When I'm abeam the fix and flying outbound (remember that because it's the definition of "PT outbound" - regardless of being on the PT side or non-PT side) I have a full 4 NM of 1000' protection on my left side - the same as when I'll be flying inbound on the inbound track. Since I fly a racetrack pattern, as I fly away from the fix, I will get even more protection. This area is designed so that pilots flying a hockey-stick pattern will also benefit from having approximately 4 NM of 1000' protection at ALL times. Why so much? Think of when you're flying an NDB approach with a traditional NDB. They're not super accurate and also if your timing is off it can significantly affect your position. They wanted to ensure that you aren't going to hit something if your angles and timing was off. Not having a ground speed and distance from the PT fix makes it harder to ensure you remain within the protected airspace (the entire area in the TP 308 diagram).

The second one shows the two sections of the PT area clearly. The area is divided up into the entry zone and the maneuvering zone. The purpose of the entry zone is to restrict altitude so as to clear an obstacle that may be in that zone. Once you're established inbound and positively tracking an NDB or VOR or LOC, etc., then you can get lower as the protected areas become smaller. When there is an obstacle in the entry zone (as depicted in the diagram), then an "entry zone altitude" is shown on the approach plate.

It looks like this: http://imageserver.fltplan.com/merge/Ca ... RWY_27.pdf
And this: http://imageserver.fltplan.com/merge/Ca ... _NDB_B.pdf

The 3500 and 3100 opposite the PT on the profile view is the entry zone altitude.

It's really simple: when you're flying in the entry zone (being on the PT side or non-PT side does NOT matter!) then you can only go as low as the entry zone altitude. When you're flying in the maneuvering zone then you can only go as low as the PT altitude.

Simple!

Now most approaches don't have an entry zone altitude, like the ILS 26 approach mentioned in this thread, and in those cases the entire area is protected at the PT altitude. That means that you can cross the PT fix from any direction and start turning for the PT maneuver and descend to the PT altitude immediately. That includes when you're in the entry zone area and when you're on the non-PT side.

You do not have to be PT outbound before going down to the PT altitude when there is no entry zone altitude depicted.

Hopefully I've clarified this as I find this is probably the most misunderstood aspect of instrument approaches.

To CAVESPRING. When the approach plate tells you to shuttle it'll be because the approach has a sector altitude that requires an excessive descent rate to continue the approach. In that case, when you're cleared for the approach, follow the approach plate and shuttle as required. This approach is an example of it: http://imageserver.fltplan.com/merge/Ca ... _DME_E.pdf. If it's busy, ATC might get you to report PT inbound or they'll just monitor you on radar. If you're flying your example ILS 26 approach and it doesn't say to shuttle then if you want to shuttle, request a shuttle maneuver from ATC. An on-the-ball controller will realize you're too high for the approach if you're holding at a high altitude above the fix and will approve you for the shuttle maneuver when he/she gives you approach clearance.

Last point: position reports for approaches at controlled airports are NOT required at all unless requested by ATC. Flight instructors, that means stop telling your students to report PT outbound and inbound when you're flying into the international airport doing your practice approaches! The AIM specifies this under RAC section 9. The reason it's specified as "controlled airports" and not something else is because reporting is divided between "uncontrolled airport" and "controlled airports". The uncontrolled airport radio calls that are required for going into an MF, for example, are not required at a controlled airport.

[eh3fifty]

One example to clarify the PT issue:

http://i.imgur.com/2pVSEcV.png

When you're following the red path and doing the S-turn PT maneuver, you are cleared down to the PT altitude IMMEDIATELY after crossing the PT fix (where I've drawn the blue line).

Looking at the NDB/DME RWY 27 approach into CYYJ that I've attached, if you were to fly that maneuver (coming from the northwest), you'd be able to descend from the sector altitude of 5500 to the PT altitude of 2200 IMMEDIATELY after crossing the YJ NDB. Since you're not flying in the entry zone when you start the approach, the entry zone altitude of 3500 does not apply.

[Big Pistons Forever]

One example to clarify the PT issue:

http://i.imgur.com/2pVSEcV.png

When you're following the red path and doing the S-turn PT maneuver, you are cleared down to the PT altitude IMMEDIATELY after crossing the PT fix (where I've drawn the blue line).

Looking at the NDB/DME RWY 27 approach into CYYJ that I've attached, if you were to fly that maneuver (coming from the northwest), you'd be able to descend from the sector altitude of 5500 to the PT altitude of 2200 IMMEDIATELY after crossing the YJ NDB. Since you're not flying in the entry zone when you start the approach, the entry zone altitude of 3500 does not apply.

I can pretty much guarantee you will never get a full procedure NDB 27 at Victoria. You will given the arrival and/or vectored for the straight in. If you actually ask for the procedure turn you are being stupid.

[eh3fifty]

Yup. I try to avoid PTs when I can. If an NDB has a GPS waypoint on the approach I'll go direct that for the straight in. Or just OBS the inbound and once within PT distance I'll descend to FAF or MDA altitude. Straight in NDB 01 works great for CZTM.

[pelmet]

The 3500 and 3100 opposite the PT on the profile view is the entry zone altitude.

It's really simple: when you're flying in the entry zone (being on the PT side or non-PT side does NOT matter!) then you can only go as low as the entry zone altitude. When you're flying in the maneuvering zone then you can only go as low as the PT altitude.

Simple!

For clarification using Bella Bella as an example. I am arriving from the northeast or southeast, how far back can I start my descent to 3100 feet?

[eh3fifty]

The 3500 and 3100 opposite the PT on the profile view is the entry zone altitude.

It's really simple: when you're flying in the entry zone (being on the PT side or non-PT side does NOT matter!) then you can only go as low as the entry zone altitude. When you're flying in the maneuvering zone then you can only go as low as the PT altitude.

Simple!

For clarification using Bella Bella as an example. I am arriving from the northeast or southeast, how far back can I start my descent to 3100 feet?

You can start your descent to 3100 after crossing the NDB and while flying in the entry zone.

From the north and extreme NNE, you'd probably opt to do a racetrack PT so you'd descend to 3100 after crossing the NDB. Once you are PT outbound (abeam the NDB and flying outbound) then you would descend to 2700.

From the rest of the NE and SE inbound courses you'd probably do a modified racetrack or S-turn PT. In those cases, since you're not in the entry zone after crossing the NDB, you can go right down to 2700. The entry zone altitude of 3100 doesn't apply.

[photofly]

When you descend appears to be country specific: The Canadian Instrument Procedures Manual says explicitly you can descend to the PT altitude after passing the fix in any direction, unless a minimum entry zone altitude is specified. The FAA IPM says descend to the PT altitude only when passing the fix outbound.

"XYZ cleared the approach, now outbound in the procedure turn, please confirm that's ok with you" - is that ask-y enough to keep you happy?

[eh3fifty]

Photofly..

The point I raised is an issue and has been talked about at length when discussing read-back/hear-back errors. Do you disagree with my comment that you should ask for clarification instead of hoping that ATC catches your error?

[photofly]

This is a not a case of hoping a readback error gets corrected. The bit were discussing is not part of the clearance wording. This is a case of clarifying your intentions by stating what you're going to fly. The IPM tells us to do exactly that.

What would you say in the circumstance that you think is better?

[eh3fifty]

Photofly..

You said: "If in any doubt, however, confirm your intentions with ATC. A short radio call ("XYZ cleared the approach, now outbound in the procedure turn") is never a bad idea."

This is a not a case of hoping a readback error gets corrected.

That is exactly what this is. You're stating, not asking, and hoping that ATC will say something if it's not what you're supposed to be doing.

This is a case of clarifying your intentions by stating what you're going to fly.

I'm saying that you should clarify by asking a question, not by using a statement.