Closing YXD proves to be the right move again

leftoftrack · Post by **leftoftrack** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:41 pm

Starting May 3 2015 KLM will return to YEG for 3 times weekly

azimuthaviation · Post by **azimuthaviation** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:57 pm

Yup, they close CYXD to scheduled traffic and within 20 years thrice weekly flights to Frankfurt (I presume) commence. We had real visionaries in Edmonton back then.

Or are you trying to say that the operation CYXD as it had been before the final closure had something to do with preventing international carriers from serving YEG?
I mean yeah, Airco's daily charter from CYXD to Albian sands in the 1900 was too much competition for the Edmonton to Frankfurt route to be viable.

leftoftrack · Post by **leftoftrack** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:43 pm

AMS actually, as long as that infrastructure was operating all it would take is one political decision to reopen cyxd. Now that it has been torn up and the infrastructure destroyed corporations can invest in cyeg with confidence that half their feed won't be leaving after the next municipal election. It wasn't the threat of airco it was the threat of 3/4 of domestic flights heading to downtown.

Tom H · Post by **Tom H** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:39 pm

Yes I'm sure it has nothing to do with the amazing growth of the Northern Alberta economy.

Nothing to do with the population explosion in Northern Alberta.

Nothing to do with the tremendous volume of discretionary income and available credit

Nope, it was all about (2) Runways of 5800' (that couldn't be extended) that couldn't take any of the last few series of 737s (600-700-800 etc) you know the ones that couldn't come to YXD (because of those short runways) to service...

the threat of 3/4 of domestic flights heading to downtown.

Yep...and BTW

all it would take is one political decision to reopen cyxd

During the airport debate the population was told (and I paraphrase) that scheduled service couldn't return because the City of Edmonton had signed an agreement relating to financial commitments that would not permit scheduled service to return and could not be broken except under pain of huge penalties.

hmmmmmmmmmmm...now leftoftrack is saying it was only a political decision needed...hmmmmmmmmmm.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Tom H · Post by **Tom H** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:47 pm

Oh yes...

The debate is over...

The infrastructure is destroyed and parts of active aviation with it...

Good taste and any effort to allow things to heal would say...leave it be don't poke it with a stick.

Again

In my highly biased personal opinion

leftoftrack · Post by **leftoftrack** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:43 pm

You mean the same 737's that operate out of SDU?

azimuthaviation · Post by **azimuthaviation** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:18 am

leftoftrack wrote:It wasn't the threat of airco it was the threat of 3/4 of domestic flights heading to downtown.

And which domestic flights are KLM operating out of Edmonton exactly?

leftoftrack · Post by **leftoftrack** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:14 am

http://nieuws.klm.com/klm-en-westjet-bi ... en-aan-en/

You can now add Edmonton to that list of gateways

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:19 am

Starting May 3 2015 KLM will return to YEG for 3 times weekly

I would assume that KLM and others might be looking at Ice Air who have slipped to several Canadian points unnoticed (hear anyway) and are supplying one of the best connections to Europe and the UK through REK - while AMS is a good airport to connect through you are usually back tracking to connect to the UK or Northern Europe and LHR -- who in their right mind wants to deal with that hell hole --

Tom H · Post by **Tom H** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:08 am

leftoftrack wrote:You mean the same 737's that operate out of SDU?

Really, Really?

You are going to try comparing an airport in Brazil, at sea level with absolutely clear over water approaches, to YXD?

Really...you are joking right?

Not to mention if you take a fast look at Boeing's own data on even the 300-400-500 series and up (at gross weight) they can't meet the requirements for the noise abatement approaches/departures at YXD. Can't launch at gross can't make nuff money.

And you don't want to lay credit to the population boom or the screaming economy, both proven massive influences on commercial passenger travel.

Not to mention the increase in immigration which has driven the demand for Friends and Families Flights back to their countries of origin and FFF to visit family here.

Course not...it defeats your argument.

Sure dodging this earlier comment I notice

all it would take is one political decision to reopen cyxd

But seeing as you have shown this is nothing but a troll I'm going back to...

Good taste and any effort to allow things to heal would say...leave it be don't poke it with a stick.

Don't feed the trolls.

In my highly biased personal opinion

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:44 am

leftoftrack wrote:Re: Closing YXD proves to be the right move again [because] Starting May 3 2015 KLM will return to YEG for 3 times weekly

Maybe they should close Cooking Lake and Villeneuve too? They'll have a dozen A380s in and out of YEG every day in no time.....

ThatArmyGuy · Post by **ThatArmyGuy** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:47 am

Leduc Regional will always be a spoke in Calgary's aviation hub. YEG (Leduc Regional) needs to stop pretending it's YYC or YYZ and just focus on what it's good at - being a feeder.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:47 am

Can't launch at gross can't make nuff money.

-- not many domestic flights in that category of aircraft depart at max weight ----

BTW -- here is a pic of a 737 on approach in the Fareo Is in 2004 -- regular service - runway length 4100' -- not a 737 classic

Tom H · Post by **Tom H** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:35 am

Appreciate LC...but

Again not a noise abatement approach, at sea level etc etc.

In addition to checking the specs I know a number of 737 classic pilots who concurred with the limitations of YXD for the later models due to the restrictions in place at YXD and the altitude.

Could the aircraft do it without the restrictions...sure, but it was restricted and sits at 2165' ASL.

In my highly biased personal opinion

azimuthaviation · Post by **azimuthaviation** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:47 am

iflyforpie wrote:Maybe they should close Cooking Lake and Villeneuve too? They'll have a dozen A380s in and out of YEG every day in no time.....

Exactly. Theres no reasonable way to draw a correlation. Why were the three KLM flights non existent up to this point? If there was a market for direct European flights from Edmonton, enough to establish a route, someone would have had that route, regardless of what happened in CYXD. What does effect the flights in and out of Edmonton is fluctuation in the economy and the overall state of the airline industry, and Edmonton's growing population. Those are the only two factors that have dictated an increase or decreas in passenger numbers over the years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th ... _in_Canada

ThatArmyGuy wrote:Leduc Regional will always be a spoke in Calgary's aviation hub.

Thats true as well. Location means a lot. Look at Red Deer, a city with over 100 000 people, very industrious, very prosperous, and their airport is less developed and less utilized than most small town airports. Due of course to being right between two major centres. Lethbridge, similiar story. Edmonton the same, to a lesser extent.

Of course Edmonton was, and still is a major northern hub, due to geographic location. Thats what should have been promoted instead of trying to be the second Calgary.

tailgunner · Post by **tailgunner** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:04 pm

What some are forgetting is that CYXD capped the height of all of the buildings downtown and along Jasper avenue in line with the approach.
There are 4-5 office towers currently being built that would exceed the old height restrictions with an operating CYXD.
CYXD's location made it an unequaled downtown airport, however that same location also proved its' downfall.
The last estimate for the renewed building boom downtown Edmonton was as high as 4.5 Billion.
Some of that would have been hindered or even lost if CYXD was still active.
And before I get jumped on as a hater, I did mu first solo out of there, and worked out of there for close to 10 years...it holds a special place in my heart.
Cheers

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:10 pm

I wonder what the net is compared to all of the corporate offices they've lost to Calgary because there you don't have to drive halfway to Red Deer to get to a major airport?

share-once · Post by **share-once** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:11 pm

KLM YEG not yet approved by Delta.
When it is approved AF will start YVR and KLM will reduce to 5 days in summer and 4 in winter for YVR
The YEG flight is not available on the time table yet.
When the flights do go to YEG, look for the crews at Starbucks in W.E. mall

azimuthaviation · Post by **azimuthaviation** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:17 pm

tailgunner wrote:There are 4-5 office towers currently being built that would exceed the old height restrictions with an operating CYXD.

Actually theres only one, the Stantec. The big office construction boom began nearly ten years ago, and mostly making up for the major slowdown in big office construction throughout the mid eighties until the last decade.

ThatArmyGuy · Post by **ThatArmyGuy** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:20 pm

share-once wrote:When the flights do go to YEG, look for the crews at Starbucks in W.E. mall

The crews will be using our highly efficient, LRT and bus system to get to west ed?

Might as well go to starbucks in Leduc and save the 45 min drive .... errr longer on the bus.

Tom H · Post by **Tom H** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:39 pm

tailgunner wrote:What some are forgetting is that CYXD capped the height of all of the buildings downtown and along Jasper avenue in line with the approach.
There are 4-5 office towers currently being built that would exceed the old height restrictions with an operating CYXD.
CYXD's location made it an unequaled downtown airport, however that same location also proved its' downfall.
The last estimate for the renewed building boom downtown Edmonton was as high as 4.5 Billion.
Some of that would have been hindered or even lost if CYXD was still active.
And before I get jumped on as a hater, I did mu first solo out of there, and worked out of there for close to 10 years...it holds a special place in my heart.
Cheers

Appreciate your point of view...but it's not what the original poster was on about and led to the thread.

That said the airport overlay was a City Bylaw that could have been altered/amended at any time (other than the approach/departure paths which are TC regulated)

But short of having all the drawings (I certainly don't) I guess we will never really know the impact or if the impact could have been mitigated.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:28 pm

First this has nothing to do with what types are viable to operate out of YXD - you could operate a 737 out of there - I have -- but the only mistake they made was not shooting down YXD years ago when they first brought in commercial carrier restrictions -- instead of putting it out of it's misery directly and humanly it died a painfully slow death --

tailgunner · Post by **tailgunner** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:16 pm

Azimuth,
You forgot about the 38 story condo on Jasper. That sucker is right on the centerline of 34. There is a 30-35 story building going up in the Quarters, which is right on the centerline to 30. The new Epcor tower is also inside of the old restriction zone.

azimuthaviation · Post by **azimuthaviation** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:09 pm

tailgunner wrote:You forgot about the 38 story condo on Jasper.

No I didnt. Beautiful building no doubt, but tops out at 121 meters. Nowhere near the height restriction.

tailgunner wrote:The new Epcor tower is also inside of the old restriction zone.

That building, which by some accounts (if you count the spire as part of the building) is the tallest in Edmonton was completed years ago, with CYXD still operating. Construction began around 2005/2006, the start of the downtown construction boom.

A few other buildings are planned/proposed but the Stantec is the only one confirmed and with construction (possibly) begun.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:16 pm

Just an aside.

But I think the "amazing growth of the Northern Alberta economy" is ending for awhile. Which makes all of the speculation about airports, moot.

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/crude-oil.aspx

The USD/CAD charts pretty much mirror the oil one.

Things aren't looking too rosy in the short-to-near term for a resource-based economy. Hope everyone took advantage when things were booming and didn't take on a pile of debt...