ALPA incompetence part II

[AFIRS]

This is long over due.

This so called union in Canada- that's looking out for our best interest.

This light should of been shed awhile ago-

This union was allowing TFW'S (in some cases) making 50 perecent more then our Canadian contract pilots. When the union was asked for the working conditions and pay scale of our tfw friends, the union simply said they don't know- ask them yourselves.
We know the tfw captains and fo's were making top pay scale, while Canadian contract pilots were making entry level garbage pay. Our Canadian contract pilots were also not provided a car and luxurious condo downtown yyz, and if they lived elsewhere in the country they were responsible for the air travel- not free like our TFW's, who also were given free travel home to Europe part way through their contract.
Our Canadian contract pilots were also paid a reduced salary during training (like Sunwing- it doesn't seem to matter if your type rated or not)...... And of course ALPA needs their union dues..

THE KICKER....

While ALPA was given proof of illegal ads be run worldwide for TFW's in Canada- they chose to throw it in the garbage and then refuse to acknowledge it.
While ALPA knew of the completely unfair working conditions and pay between Canadian and TFW pilots they chose to ignore it.
While asking ALPA why we can't see the pay scale and working conditions of our tfw pilots- after all, they also pay union dues.. ALPA explains that TFW's don't pay union dues, THE COMPANY PAYS THEIR UNION DUES FOR THEM.

This is absolutely unbelievable. It's more unbelievable that no one seems to give two #$&@$.

You don't think this is affecting you? Let me explain from my point of view.

I've been Captain on 737 for 5 years. Sadly my company outlook is bleak. So being very experienced and type rated on the 737, I apply at Sunwing. I interview and actually, extremely interested in joining them, considering I absolutely enjoy the flying and aircraft.

Job offer comes across the table.....

"We would love to have you temporarily join our airline for ten months as first officer. We offer zero Benifits and your pay should be in the mid 50's. Oh and by the way you will be on training pay of 100 dollars per work day until your line indoc... You shouldn't take to long."

Remember when airlines had to one up the competition in order to seek the experience and talent they needed to succeed, before they had the TFW program?? Anyone??

Also remember I'd be a contract pilot- (experienced 737 captain) now accepting a position that would have me flying with contract tfw captains, as I sit First Officer. I also will be paying my car bills and mortgage (with my credit line) and preying none of my family needs Benifits.
Why the huge difference between contract pilots? A free rental car and condo downtown could really come in handy while my family and I try to survive on the 100 dollars I make every time I leave for work.. Which would be more like 75 bucks after gas.

Here's to another great season of flying and paying union dues folks!

[rudder]

Why are you bashing ALPA? It is UNIFOR that represents the pilots at SW.

http://www.unifor.org/
http://www.unifor.org/en/about-unifor/locals/7378
http://www.sunwingpilots.com/

[Notta Simfalt]

Which ALPA airlines have TFWs?

[ea306]

CANJET

http://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa/pre ... 06.029.htm

[aerosexual]

A few points to consider:

1. This should squash the notion that foreign pilots in Canada are cheap labour - they are not
2. As has been mentioned, ALPA has nothing to do with Sunwing, although they were representing Canjet pilots when they brought in TFW's on behalf of Transat Vacations
3. The Canjet pilots were initially offered seasonal positions, but that was then changed shortly afterwards to permanent positions
4. The $100 daily training pay is only during ground school and simulator training. Once line indoc starts, regular pay commences. While $100 isn't much, it amounts to $1,500 every two weeks, tax free, and in your case you would be at your regular salary very quickly
5. As a permanent pilot, you would get benefits for yourself and your family
6. As a permanent pilot, you would be able to bid to go overseas for the summer, where a "luxurious" condo and car will be provided to you on your deployment in Europe, plus the some paid travel between Canada and your deployed base, just like the foreign pilots get in Canada on their deployments.

Your situation is unfortunately a part of Canadian aviation, and let's not kid ourselves, Sunwing pilots (much like Air Transat pilots, Porter pilots, Jazz pilots, etc etc etc) could face at any time in their careers sometimes on short notice. I feel for your situation, but I thought I should correct some of your misunderstandings on the recent pilot hiring and the opportunity you unfortunately missed.

[AFIRS]

Again, completely two different things- wet leases and TFW's.

Anyhow- this wasn't meant to be a bashing at sunwing (relax and save your arrogance for elsewhere please). I was simply stating the gross misconduct ALPA has demonstrated with contract TFW'S and Canadian pilots.

I believe we should all be aware of this.

[TFTMB heavy]

Although ALPA has not taken a vocal public stand on this issue they have been working on it.

I work for an ALPA represented carrier and wouldn't have any other way.

That being said, this whole low pay for $1 a dozen pilots will come to a screeching halt when companies are hiring to compensate for the new flight time duty time regs.

[teacher]

And what was ALPA supposed to do? Commence an illegal strike? Dictate to the company how they should conduct their business? Shut it down and bankrupt the farm to show the company whose boss?

Despite what many people think unions do not have that much power. Especially when it comes to the everyday operations of their employer. If it's outside of a collective agreement than what grounds does a union have?

[rudder]

Again, completely two different things- wet leases and TFW's.

Anyhow- this wasn't meant to be a bashing at sunwing (relax and save your arrogance for elsewhere please). I was simply stating the gross misconduct ALPA has demonstrated with contract TFW'S and Canadian pilots.

I believe we should all be aware of this.

SW is a union company.

Whatever happens there as it pertains to scope of work and (pilot) subcontracting is covered by a CBA between Sunwing Airlines and UNIFOR. And that CBA was ratified by the SW pilot bargaining unit.

Clearly you have an axe to grind. I know that ALPA is a bigger target than SW but you need to direct your gripes at the party that exercises direct control over the provisions that you are so disenchanted with.

I believe that there is already one response from a SW pilot that addresses your concerns.

[AirMail]

I've heard more from ALPA and they at least identify that TFW is an issue. Why haven't I heard anything from UNIFOR or CAW? They're bigger but it seems they are the ones who don't care about pilots. What is your solution to this AFIRS other than whine on avcanada?

[AFIRS]

Actually I thought fellow pilots would be interested in this... My apologies for my Sunwing rant at the end of my first post- truly just frustration.

Continuing on-
Would you not be upset with double standards like this within your company, under the watchful eye of your well paid union?

Having foreign workers work along side you, making double your income? Foreign workers getting in their warm company supplied car for their short commute to the company supplied downtown condo, while you wait for the TTC to your crashpad? Foreign pilots having their union dues paid for by the company while you try to make ends meet with your reduced pay and training bond.

Truly, am I the only one who views this as insane? These days are well behind us here at my airline but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Sure I have a bone to pick concerning this,, shouldn't all Canadian citizens?

I expressed my concerns with the government, my union, my fellow pilots. The government expressed concern and are slowly engaging, ALPA didn't seem to care- they were getting their money. Fellow pilots who were directly affected (most were not even aware) were concerned, while others (most) not giving a flying #$&*.

Our Canadian contract pilots were experienced, most being middle aged with families. Most had suffered a Canadian aviation job loss.

I would expect a union to negotiate fair respectful working conditions for all of its pilots. What happened here was disgraceful to our profession and Canadian citizenship. ALPA's constitution is a complete farce.


I just find it extremely difficult to accept that my hard earned dollars supported this.


[youtube]Trailer Park Boys - Before you disrespect J.R.O.C…: http://youtu.be/6ebXHhABjqo[/youtube]

[teacher]

Again AFIRS, what is ALPA to do. They do not make the labour laws or dictate what a company can or cannot do. A union can only negotiate and enforce a collective bargaining agreement voted on by the majority of employees.

Now if we had a legally recognized College that governed our profession, accredited licensing and set binding best practises for the hiring of pilots in Canada........

[whipline]

I'm not sure what this post is about? Nothing to do with ALPA and nothing to do with Unifor. After reading I'd say your upset because you were happy with your left seat and now you can't find another one?

You worked for a company that's either gone away or restructured multiple times and doesn't carry its own pax. What does that have to do with a union or sunwing? You were offered a job. Sunwing quickly changed and offered all type rated pilots full time employment. Are you upset you weren't offered a direct entry captain position?

I have more NG experience then anyone at Canjet. If I applied would I get a left seat? It's the nature of our business. Your going to be going back of the list FO somewhere. Sucks but....

Teacher, college of pilots isn't going to help this either.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I'm not sure what this post is about? Nothing to do with ALPA and nothing to do with Unifor. After reading I'd say your upset because you were happy with your left seat and now you can't find another one?

You worked for a company that's either gone away or restructured multiple times and doesn't carry its own pax. What does that have to do with a union or sunwing? You were offered a job. Sunwing quickly changed and offered all type rated pilots full time employment. Are you upset you weren't offered a direct entry captain position?

I have more NG experience then anyone at Canjet. If I applied would I get a left seat? It's the nature of our business. Your going to be going back of the list FO somewhere. Sucks but....

Teacher, college of pilots isn't going to help this either.

Except that this winter at least 60 TFW pilots will be hired as direct entry seasonal captains, a position that Sunwing's collective agreement says cannot be offered to Canadian seasonal pilots. ....

You can bluff, sing, dance, do a magic trick, blow smoke, do whatever you can think of to hide it, its just plain WRONG.

[whipline]

Other then the fact we send captains to fly overseas.

[teacher]

Teacher, college of pilots isn't going to help this either.

You're right. Not in it's current form. But if it had the power that most recognized colleges did we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Other then the fact we send captains to fly overseas.

Smoke and mirrors as expected.

Sunwing just applied to the Canadian Transportation Agency to import 4 B737 from Europe on wet-lease. These aircraft will come with foreign crews, including foreign captains.

This happens to be the exact number of aircraft that Sunwing sent to Europe this summer, 4.
So 4 wet leases sent over, four wet lease brought in. The crew swaps, including captain swaps were equal there.

But it is in addition to those 4 foreign wet-leases with crew that Sunwing plans to import another 120 Temporary Foreign Worker pilots, including 60 or more Seasonal Foreign Captains.

The Sunwing Collective Agreement says those seasonal Captains can only be hired if they are foreign.

Way to go UNIFOR! Favor TFW pilots over Canadians.

[whipline]

Well Gilles, maybe you and your self appointed tfw committee with all your political clout can contact easa and let them know how upset you are.

As for Unifor/sunwing, protecting jobs at sunwing is the priority.

For our next topic Gilles, why don't we discuss sunwing approaching ALPA 2 yrs ago trying to create a program using Canadian pilots instead of tfw. I'll lead you to the punchline, ALPA said no.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

For our next topic Gilles, why don't we discuss sunwing approaching ALPA 2 yrs ago trying to create a program using Canadian pilots instead of tfw. I'll lead you to the punchline, ALPA said no.

Why don't you do like I do? Give names, dates, post relevant letters and emails here on AvCanada, or if you are afraid of the consequences, send them to me and I will gladly post them for you.

But you threw a curve ball at me.

The Sunwing Collective Agreement states in no uncertain terms that Sunwing Seasonal Captains can be Foreign Captains but never Canadian Captains, like the OP of this thread. Nothing can justify these clauses no matter how you may want to disguise it.

Go UNIFOR! The TFW Union of Canada!

[timel]

ALPA does no accept all pilots groups, so for few smaller pilots groups willing have a union, they have to go UNIFOR.

It is obvious that pilots are not UNIFOR strenght, but better than having nothing.